macskull

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Sooo...can we have /Kin MM's now? Please?

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I've said it before:

Before this change, I would have been indifferent at best to Kin MMs because of the difficulty of leveraging Fulcrum Shift on all your pets (especially if you played a ranged set like Thugs or Bots). The main draw for Kinetics would be Speed Boost. Unfortunately the best aspect of that power will no longer work properly on pets in I14, so now I really couldn't care less if MMs get Kinetics. I'm hoping for Sonic or Cold, myself.

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And buffing recharge is not the same as slotting for recharge. You can slot accuracy, but you can't buff accuracy, only to hit.

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In terms of external buffs this is generally correct, but there are a few self-buff powers that boost accuracy (Focused Accuracy, Targeting Drone for Scrappers, and Combat Training: Offensive).

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Don't they boost to hit? They seem the same as Targetting Drone for Devices, and Tactics, respectively.

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Focused Accuracy boosts both tohit and accuracy, same for Targeting Drone (the Devices version is +tohit only). CT:O boosts accuracy only. It used to be +tohit during the I12 beta but was found to be too strong and was changed.

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And buffing recharge is not the same as slotting for recharge. You can slot accuracy, but you can't buff accuracy, only to hit.

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In terms of external buffs this is generally correct, but there are a few self-buff powers that boost accuracy (Focused Accuracy, Targeting Drone for Scrappers, and Combat Training: Offensive).

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1. Recharge from the caster was never intended to be passed to the pets.

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Wrong. Hasten, Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, and AM have passed the caster's recharge to summoned pets since approximately I7. Further, tangible pets (Singy, Imps) have been directly buffable by these same powers forever.

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From Castle, in the OP of this thread:

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Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended. For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.

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Emphasis mine.

Meh, does anything make sense under the new system?

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Broken in what way then? Please explain because to me it looks like a nerf because they are overpowered. The main 3 that got hit worst by the nerf only have 1 attack, so they cant say its because of the AI issues.

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1. Recharge from the caster was never intended to be passed to the pets.

2. Some pets have buggy AI.

This change supposedly "fixes" both those problems. While I don't agree with the change or the way it was handled, I understand why they want it done. I guess the best thing we can do now is stop complaining and start gathering evidence that some of the pets affected by this change could now stand for buffs, even if they are small ones.

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Reports from a friend with ninjas and another with a necro claim that both of their toons are performing better with what you call a nerf.

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Really? Reports I've been reading say Fly Trap and Jounin are still not cycling their attacks correctly on test.

Any decent PvPer will have some kind of +perception, even if it's just the IO.

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I'm with DJ on that one. Enforced Morale has a TON of things it helps with, and that recharge will help any teammates you have as well. A bit silly to want a change to that power because of this recharge change.

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Funny thing about +recharge... before this change I would have thought Kinetics to be a so-so set for Masterminds at best, because of the difficulty of leveraging Fulcrum Shift on all your pets - I would have wanted it more for SB and ID than anything. After the change? No thanks, Controllers/Defenders/Corruptors can keep it.

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Wrong, Sonic or Psi/EM or Dev.

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Oh, way to be classy and constructive. Good job.

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He is at least correct.

Yeah, that too

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The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?

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The Defender version uses a different pet than the other three ATs that have access to it (slightly higher damage is the only difference). Chances are simply someone forgot to add it to the list of affected powers and it will be "fixed" sometime within the next few patches (or it'll be ignored for a year or so and then finally be fixed to much complaining from the Defender boards).

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But then that is not a broad sweeping fix as it's advertised. If that is the case then they have the ability to pick and choose what pets are affected.

If that's the case then why must every pet suffer for the sake of an issue happening with a few? Flag the ones with the issue and move on leaving the rest alone.

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Because Castle, in the OP of this thread, specifically singled out a few powers, including Lightning Storm, as another reason for this change. Since the Defender version uses a different name, it's more than likely someone forgot to change it in the spreadsheet, not that they're trying to make a point of only getting certain powers with the change.

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The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?

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The Defender version uses a different pet than the other three ATs that have access to it (slightly higher damage is the only difference). Chances are simply someone forgot to add it to the list of affected powers and it will be "fixed" sometime within the next few patches (or it'll be ignored for a year or so and then finally be fixed to much complaining from the Defender boards).

Alright, hopefully a redname will see this post, because I don't want to start another thread on the matter (because it will either fall to the wayside or get locked).

Pet recharge change - issues

First, I understand why this change is being pushed through. I can also understand the necessity behind it, but I also hope you understand the impact this will have on a particular few sets. I know things will eventually get looked at but I know the speed at which things get datamined and changes get made is slow and can take a long time. As such, I'd just like to throw a few suggestions out there and see what we can come up with.

There are three specific powers you mentioned as partial causes for this change - Gun Drone, Voltaic Sentinel, and Lightning Storm. In the case of GD and LS, they inherited recharge from the caster from things like Hasten or external buffs - so not something that IOs can really be blamed for. First, let's take a look at Gun Drone.

Gun Drone has a base end cost of 39, a 180-second recharge, a 90-second duration, and an interruptible six-second cast time. Its attack rate can be increased by simply slotting it with normal recharge IOs, unique among these kinds of pets. Gun Drone has a single attack power (Gatling Gun) that does about 65 damage and recharges in 5 seconds with a 1-second activation. At face value that's at most 15 attacks during that 90 second window at a per-attack end cost that is roughly on par with Neutrino Bolt. However, GD's AI isn't spectacular and it rarely will fire all 15 shots before it explodes. This doesn't change the fact that it still costs an obscene amount of end to summon (higher than almost any other power except Mastermind's Lightning Storm and pet upgrades) and is interruptible for six seconds. Not to mention that Voltaic Sentinel, the most similar pet mechanically, costs less end, isn't interruptible, and is permanent out of the box (60s duration, 60s recharge).

Suggestions:
* Lower end cost and lower recharge to 90 seconds
* Disallow multiple entities
* Change animation and remove or significantly reduce interrupt time (the "wrist keypad" that bots use would be thematically appropriate)
* Reduce Defiance bonus to reflect the reduced cast time

Next, we take a look at Voltaic Sentinel. VS does not inherit buffs from the caster but its attack rate could be increased by slotting end mod sets with a recharge aspect. VS has a more-respectable end cost of 26, a non-interruptible 3.1s cast time, and a recharge and duration of 60s. It has one attack, Electrical Bolt, which recharges in 2.5s and has a 1.17s activation time. Of the pets particularly targeted by this change, it seems to be the least affected because of its fast attack rate. Still...

Suggestions:
* Slightly increase the damage per attack, or slightly reduce the recharge time of its attack

Finally, a look at Lightning Storm. This is, as evidenced by feedback from the forums, the power that has taken the biggest hit as a result of this change. LS has a base end cost of 31.2 end (39 for Masterminds), recharges in 90s and has a 60s duration, with a 2.03s non-interruptible cast time. Its single attack, Lightning, has a 5-foot AoE radius, a recharge of 4s, and an activation time of 1.17s. The reduction in effectiveness of this power is not minor, as many characters took Hasten without even knowing it also served to buff this power, not to mention it benefited from external buffs like SB, AM, etc. This power is not terrible now by any means, but it could use some form of compensation.

Suggestions:
* Reduce the end cost of the summon power - for an immobile and slow-firing pet, 30-40 end is an awful lot
* Slightly increase damage or reduce recharge time of the attack (see Voltaic Sentinel)
* Make the pet mobile, even if it is slow - this would more than offset the damage loss because it would be able to be utilized for its entire duration instead of just the few seconds the fight is near it
* Give the pet a slower-recharging version of Thunder Clap - this makes thematic sense, and if the pet couldn't move, it would at least serve to add some control into the mix

Thanks for reading, if you've made it this far. Hopefully these suggestions will be taken into account.

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Yeah it put certain ATs especially most Doms except *cough*fire/elec*cough* out of the picture, you almost never see support ATs in zones anymore (it's always blasters, scrappers, widows and forts). Stalkers aren't that great either, the damage output is lame, especially AS.

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Eh? Doms are like the PvP 2.0 Blasters now. Sure there aren't many viable combos (but that holds true for almost every AT, lol powerset balance indeed) but Doms still do respectably. Gogo Mind, Fire, Elec, and Fiery...

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Though I wonder, did this toon win PvP matches Solo in the old system either?

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I only ever did one duel with that toon pre-I13, as a joke match against a Peacebringer. We tied.

Other than that? I was always happy to bring that toon into arena or zone teams and was glad to play the role of buffer because even if I wasn't contributing to the kill count, I was making sure my teammates stayed alive and well-buffed. In I13 I can't do either.

Suckerpunch's hasn't been updated since IOs I think. He's also stepped down as one of the people behind the Titan network so I'm not even sure if he'll be releasing the update he was working on.

Really? It can't. Not well, anyways. Not with diminishing returns on buffs, heal decay, and loldefender damage.

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Maybe it is just me, but I have never understood the value that so many people place in bringing "work" into what they do for entertainment.

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Maybe it is just me, but some people find using the system to maximize their characters as well as they can to be fun.

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Since it seems as though this change is indeed targeted at all pets including those that inherited buffs from the caster, and people have already pointed out potential problems this change has caused or didn't fix (testing on Fly Trap and the ninjas shows they're still a bit wonky, and people have shown how this will be a very negative impact on their Stormies and Warshades for example), is there a chance that the pets with only one or two attacks will receive some sort of a buff as compensation for this change? Specifically I'm looking at the pets you claimed as one of the reasons for this change. You already greatly improved the effectiveness of Gun Drone by making it mobile (although it's still not great), could the same be done to Lightning Storm? And perhaps a global (albeit small) pet damage buff or recharge lowering?

As a poster above pointed out, where does this leave Soulbound Allegiance? As I understand it that is the only pet set whose recharge portions also boosted the pet's recharges - now that pets don't benefit from slotted or buffed recharge, that set has basically become two very expensive +HP bonuses for my MM.

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I13 was a big step forward in the PvP game and greatly improved my PvP experience. Now it is possible for me to bring my fire brute to a zone and have a chance of winning against any archtype, just as any archtype now has a chance of winning against me. The challenge makes the game fun.

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lol. I'll get right on beating you with my Emp/Dark. I mean, now that his heals and buffs are pretty much useless, I should be able to kill something, right? Right...? Guys?

KO Blow is mag 7.79 knockup. So assuming no DR, two IOs would be enough to stop it. However, that 8 points isn't actually 8 points if you're playing with DR on (I'd check in a zone right now but I don't think I have any toons with more than one KB IO).

It'll probably happen a few weeks after I14 launch. Problem is up until now all IO sets have had only one set of set bonuses, whereas the PvP sets have two. There's already a switch to change between PvE and PvP modes (to reflect the mez changes and damage rebalancing, but doesn't figure in DR) but I'm not sure if the code currently exists to have two sets of set bonuses for a single IO set.

That only applies to toggle knockback protection. Always-on (a la IOs) or click (Practiced Brawler, Active Defense) works fine. I don't think two IOs is enough to save you from KO Blow, especially given that those 8 points is getting DR'd to more like 3-4 points.

Well, Zombies have a resistance to all slows (recharge and movement), which is currently unique among pets. With the pet change currently on test, pets aren't affected by recharge buffs, which means they can't be affected by recharge debuffs either. Zombies will still have the advantage of movement slow resistance, but the recharge slow resistance aspect is now redundant.

This is true, but how many MM secondaries give their pets +rech? Answer? One (Enforced Morale has a very small +rech buff). How many sets for other ATs have recharge slows? A lot more than one. Plus, Zombies have inherent slow resistance, now they lose this unique aspect.