lionsbane_EU

Hi. I've been away from the game for quite a while. Now i've returned, hopefully re enthused and certainly impressed with some of the changes that have occurred in my absense.

I love the fact the inherents are now.. inherent. (loving the incarnate system btw...)

Which brings me to my question. I am SS/ Invul. i took all the invul powers except tough hide because I added tough and weave.
On the other side of the coin I added handclap, mostly for concept reasons.
Cept, now playing i realise hand clap is pretty redundant, especially as the closer my foes are the more my "invulnerabiliyy" increases.. Soooo pushing them away seems... odd.

I took hurl, a power that i never took in my previous time here but it's been improved.. or it seems to have anyhow.. So i took that for my primary ranged attack.

Anyhow, If i drop handclap and add something is there any real benefit to adding tough hide (which my logic tells me to do) or add maybe laser vision for another ranged attack?

Does tough hide increase my imperviousnes or defence by any significant degree?

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Editing individual posts would make for a very empty thread so I am removing it instead, even though there were many valid interventions. Please keep the negativity constructive! These boards are also for new players to feel they have a place outside the game where they can talk about their experience. One needs a lot of enthusiasm in order to be a regular posting member on these boards at the moment!

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Production Assistants: Noobs
I lolled.
Also at the Time clocks at the start. Good video in my opinion, as JD stated. It's towards non-players, why the hell do you want PR towards us selling us the game we already play?

Fury

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Well, I thought that Hurley and... sorry Matt and Brian did what they set out to. Spin the game in a positive light.

I did learn a lot about why I feel the game is commercially and creatively short, watching that interview.

They clearly are computer guys and gamers through and through. They are not dynamic sales/ marketing/ business types at all. So as a lead designer, I'm pretty sure Matt isn't the best person to understand how to place things in the best possible light. Or why yu would go to the effort.

Seem like nice guys though. Just a shame for the game is all.

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QR

I think an exploit is receiving an disproportionate reward for the effort you have put in due to a flaw in the game engine.

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I keep saying this. It wasn't a flaw. They knew it would happen and could have prevented it but chose not to.

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I'm unsure whether Perma Elude and Merma MoG back in the old days were an exploit or not, but they did remove all level of risk from the game. I think I can put them down as poor planning by the devs instead

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What they didn't do was deduct all the xp the scrappers got from having elude on retrospectively though.

you can go on and on about players taking unfair advantage of things devs put up in good faith. And the devs fix that something. That's part of life.

This was different. Because they unleashed MA knowing it could be exploited.

Tell me something. When Roman Abranovic bought Chelsea and poured hundreds of millions into it, was that an exploit?
It certainly wasn't what the football league intended but there wasn't a rule against it.
I don't think a single non chelsea (or Man City now) fan thinks it's fair but it wasn't against the rules.
So it wasn't was it? And even if the league brought out new rules now, they wouldn't deduct Chelsea all the pionts they won under Roman would they?

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Just imagine, - they delay I14 launch till, say two weeks ago, they don't tell why, rumor mill starts. Then, after that delay, the thing is exploited anyway, maybe not as epically, but still it would be. You can't find exploits without exploiters, and open beta is of only so much help anyway.

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i understand what you're saying but this is incorrect. The very first posts we did when MA was first announced regarded- guess what? - Farming! This wasn't some unforseeable exploit that came from no where. It was bloody obvious. And as for exploiters, why dont banks lay their cash on the till because people aren't supposed to take it?
Or roads not have road signs cause people know to stick to the speed limit?
people are people. Like I said, give em an exploit and it'll be exploited. Which is why, knowing that, bankers put their money in safes.

They knew this would happen and lo and behold it has. Assuming they really did think three steps out their garden gate which I doubt.
It's actually unacceptable that this whole fiasco has occurred right when they should be batoning down the hatches or going on the attack because of whats coming in the summer.
Instead they've given several people (who will discuss with their friends who will discuss with their friends..) good reason to jump ship.

Boy, there's a certain crew we know so well, rubbing their hands right now...

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Oh, sure, you personally might not care about MA, even if it's used as intended, or even might wish it never existed. But many do care. Frankly, MA and what it could mean are major reasons why I didn't cancel the sub this winter. Press would react negatively to uunexplained delay too, I suppose, and even more so to delay explained by MA security issues.

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That's unfair. I would never knock your likes. And I even put my own mission arc up. It's not my fault. It's theirs.

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And with CO around the corner some producer, or even Posi himself, might have gotten nervous enough to force the launch no matter what, figuring that they can keep farmability hush-hush long enough.

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They are in blissful denial of CO. But that's another topic.

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Or in other words, you're offered 2 choices: guaranteed loss of, say £8 000 or a gamble, - 1/10 chance to WIN £10 000 and 9/10 to lose the same £10 000 (most of which you're going to lose anyway)? Apply this to delayed launch vs doing what devs did.

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Too late! You've drawn me in. MA (disregarding the exploit) is a great add on.
It is not however, a response to the new shiny game coming round the corner. This games response to that has been almost nothing. And, good luck to em? Why should people switch from this game to another brand new one packed with features this one can't be bothered to put out? Right?

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(2) Devs aren't babbling idiots.

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No but someone amongst them should have an ounce of business sense. This isn't a game. (couln't resist)

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Even retroactive ban threat is quite reasonable.

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I disagree here. Retrospect ie banning is not reasonable. You are punushing someone for something that you,by your inaction, told them it was ok to do.

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Would it be OK for you to use my flat for your party? You meticulously steal nothing, you just party there because my actions might be an indication I don't mind strangers in my flat. you are even so nice you pay me a little. Would this behaviour be OK?

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isn't there a law against that? Which is my point isn't it?
Even if we accept their word as law, no one said boo to a goose.

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Well, about that "they weren't highlighting" bit, - no one with any sanity left does that ever, especially if they know they can't get to fixing it in a while.

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Sure. But I can raise you on that one by saying that no one with any sense would knowingly put something live that is going to be this game breaking without having a fix in place.

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That said, I'm still a bit surprised they did release MA with no way ro rapidly respond do situations like that, and/or some sort of global mechanics to nerf any such exploits in advance. But just a bit surprised.

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I'm not surprised at all. But what I'm saying is its a bit rich if they put something like this out then moan when players are doing what comes naturily. Very rich in fact.
there is only one answer to this.
They should have fixed the issue before release. Now they've opened a door up to ban otherwise good natured players for playing something the devs are totally culable for. They gave us this system.

Imagine there was a patch and after your patch your alt developed EB powers. And the devs did nothing about it. Would you play him? Most people would, I think, and enjoy it. I remember being on ultima on line and they introduced a new beetle pet. This beetle turned out to be way more powerful than intended. Think that stopped us using it? Course not. The sun shone, we made hay and the devs fixed it.

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And no one can honestly say they didn't know dev team was anti-farm. (**) They mentioned it repeatedly in pre-release materials, they banned farm-related terms, they did some exploit(*)-fixing (Snake eggs, vamp chambers, Prisoners) both in beta and live long before that. Plenty of statement for me. I still farmed a little, more out of curiosity, than genuine need for XP or inf, but I didn't make any 50s or billions of inf by it. Just 6 levels 20-something levels, a bit of debt clearing and low mils.

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I think you're making excuses for them here.
it's actions not words that count. And their actions led to this farming vculture in the first place. And apart from isolated things they havent done anything to stop it.
it's for them to create gameplay that discourages it and they haven't. For example the 10-20 grind is a big reason people PL. Have they done anything about it? Improve stamina a bit so at least you can fight without resting every 2 minions?
Farming was a minority sport on this game once.

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(*) Exploit here means "whatever the devs call an exploit."
(**) They can cay they didn't expect threat of retroactive bans, I didn't for one. But I knew they will do SOMETHING and something harsh about it sooner or later.

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What can I say? Facetiously I say it's easier (and more stupid) to threaten players than to prevent the problem in the first place or fix it as fast as you can.

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The, "The game lets me do it so it cant be wrong" is not an excuse. It is similar to the "I was only following orders" excuse.

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Well, they're really not the same thing at all are they?
As in law if something isn't forbidden, then it's legal if not necessarily desirable and ethical. And this is a game.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't like this any more than the next guy (I rarely farmed in 5 years of game play) but the way MAs laid out directly lends it self to just that.

It really isn't enough for a DEV to say,please don't do that. Which, by the way, they havent done till now, even though they knew these exploits were going to happen.

Asking teenagers to abide by the "spirit" of the game and be good boys (girls) is plain niave. Not to mention that , with all the debt cuts and XP curves in place and inventions costing millions each, it seems to me that the devs themselves have created this culture.

Exploiting something is not necessarily an exploit.

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And if it is and the devs didn't intend that level of gain, then it is an exploit.

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Well, yes and no. Because if the devs launched this knowing the issues, not highlighting the issues and not dealing with the issues, then it actually can't be an exploit.

If you ask me how ludicrous it is to launch something like MA, knowing it's going to be abused because it's laid out in such a way as to actually encourage it, without safeguards, and then respond with draconian measures that can be enforced retrospectively.. that's another story.

They really have made their own bed and this ain't good at all.

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Obviously since you now can get all your new shiny powers in a day, you can't appreciate how this might offend the people who spent 6 months getting their chars to the level cap.

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It's not about offending i don't think. it's just... shortchanging the game.
I think the devs had the Power building side of the game pretty much right (in one sense) on day one. I never agreed with global nerfs or Ed firstly commercially speaking and secondly because they took away somethin that made this game unique, yet eminently playable.

They could have balanced up not down and in fact, given the power levels you can now attain, i question if balance was ever the reason for Ed and GN.

My point is, I think, that to fully power up was (barring fairly rare at the time power leveling)you played the game.

You went through the arcs, you developed your character as your on line persona as opposed to a model you are playing to get to 50 as fast as you can.
It was just purer then.

The overall nature seemed to be calmer and more friendly.
Farming was rare because the necessity to farm was much less so.

If you play that way now, look how far behind another player who joined the same day as you you are.
Or someone in your SG.
And you dont want that so you join the bandwagon too.

I can't believe that many standard MMO players thinks that's desirable, and I'm sorry the developers encouraged these kind of "long ball" tactics.
It was just, in my view, a much better gaming experience.

I know it's just my view but I dont see how they can expect longevity in this game when you can get your alts to 50 in a few days and using what is the most labourious and repetitous methods I can imagine.

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I don't encourage endless farming: as in I don't encourge people to JUST farm and not trying out other contents in the game. But as it currently stands, there seems to be no effective solutions to it.

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The simple problem is that the game now DEMANDS you farm in order to play it to its max.
While not everone wants to "uber " their char, most people (including me) do. It's one of the attractions to a game like this.

Once, this was done by 6 slotting and aquiring single origin enhancements that you aquire through game play (and if you really want to rock) Hamidon.

That was dispensed with, as we all know, (or certainly diluted) and a year later inventions took its place.

And the way they are laid out, you have to farm.

Playing the game doesnt give you the right set IOs as drops, even if you play a year.
And, occasionally you do get the right set IO, you have to slot all at once because the balance of that particular set drops if you have single iOs or old fashion enhancements and replace them with one or two set enhancements as you play to gather a full set.

So you farm. And farm and farm until you finally have enough inf to buy them at Wentworths.

And there is no other way to realistically do it.
And as you farm, your XP goes up expodentially alongside your inf and lo and behold you hit 50.
And then what?

You feel you've done your char so you either get bored or reroll.

I think the way round all this is to cap xp and redistribute the way set IO enhancements drop through natural game play.
So they are not so hard to aquire and consequently not as expensive to buy (should you wish to do so) andso you dont need the same level of farming to do so.

The desire to farm will decrease and therefore the culture of the game should gradually revert back to its purer and overall more attractive form.

That's my tuppence anyway.

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How about putting a sensible cap on xp per hour game wide?

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That gets an even bigger no.

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Why?

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It completely flies in the face of risk vs. reward to have any kind of flat cap. As someone posted above, there are very difficult arcs in the MA that net you a lot of XP - and rightly so. If you put the effort in, you should get the rewards, and a cap ruins that.

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I understand what you're saying but don't agree. In the normal playing game, (disregarding farming and pling) regardles of what you face, there is only so much xp you can physically attain per hour.

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The issue isn't people getting a lot of XP, it's people getting a lot of XP for very minimal effort. Again, the issue is that the risk vs. reward is completely out of whack. That's what people want fixed - so a cap is very counter-productive. You're just breaking it in a different way.

Edit: Oh, and also, who is going to judge what constitutes a "sensible" amount?

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The devs have metrics and data mining for that sort of thing. It's just a personal view but I think a "high" cap would do it.

I dont think that'll put off gamers because most people would hardly ever reach that cap anyway. (unles they are in MA or are farming pretty hard core.)

But it would deter hard core farming and MA abuse and maybe steer the game back on course.

I get concerned because the more farming goes on the less teams there are for "ordinary players" and a vicious circle will form (maybe has formed) that would be very hard to break.

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In work places before all the PC stuff came in, it wasn't uncommon for 2 men to go out back, sort out their differences and come back in and forget about it.

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Heh. Sure it was. And pre-ED the servers were busier, lag was unheard of, broadcast was used for intelligent, considere discourse and everybody wrote the Queen's English with proper punctuation and ortography.

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Well, point one is on the money anyway.

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I lagged badly back then.

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I never lagged once (that I recall) in the USA. But I was referring to subscribers pre and post (allowing for CoVs intro) ED.

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How about putting a sensible cap on xp per hour game wide?

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That gets an even bigger no.

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Why?

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In work places before all the PC stuff came in, it wasn't uncommon for 2 men to go out back, sort out their differences and come back in and forget about it.

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Heh. Sure it was. And pre-ED the servers were busier, lag was unheard of, broadcast was used for intelligent, considere discourse and everybody wrote the Queen's English with proper punctuation and ortography.

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Well, point one is on the money anyway.

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<--- is getting slightly fed up listening to people moan now

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I can't help you on that. These are forums. They reflect what's going on and how people view them at the time. That's not our fault. Sorry.
Go to posis address if you want positive soundbites.

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The games in a right state i think they get the picture. They're working on it. slowly, bit by bit. the coming update thats on test should make a fair dent in farming. Not including the yet to come.

Edit: I'd also like to point out how exactly you judge how enthusiastic someone is about what they do? In all seriousness... You've, if your lucky met them once, possibly spoken to them a couple of times. (which were no doubt partially prescript and extremely prohibited). Other than that your basing it on what... Whats released? The issues?

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I don't fully understand the question. Who's enthusiastic? Who have I met once or twice? Devs or players?

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Where has the soul of this game gone? And, more to the point can it ever come back again?

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They flushed it. Check down the waste recycling plant, it's probably floating in one of the settling tanks somewhere, among all the other flotsam they scraped off the game ages ago.

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There is absolutely no question in my mind that the culture within the game has deteriorated beyond recognition. it's almost corrupted.
And after spending years of criticsing and putting up my (right or wrong0 suggestions, I finally admit defeat.

What's done it for me is that they should have seen, following the way farming has become so predominant after inventions came in, what was going to happen. Crickey, just spending a few hours testing the system will have shown them that.

So I have zero hope for them.

But maybe someone else does. What should be done to restore the core soul of this game?

Everyone knows how critical I am of the development team and my belief that they lack the ambition and the imagination this game requires.

But even I never thought it would come to this.

Does anyone remember the time when the typical player enjoyed the game as it was set out to be played?

When it took 6 months to hit 50? And you enjoyed the journey?

When you'd play your toon because you liked that particular char-you liked logging on as that alt, everyonew knew you as that persona?

You'de do something spectacular like stood in a mob and took all the damage.. or wiped out a group in a single blast and someone near you would go wow? And you'd smile because even though 6 slotting that power meant you weren't as accurate or you had a little less endurance, it was worth it for cool moments like that?

When all the 50s met at hamidon and picked up a real reward and had a great 3 hours even though most of the time you were just standing there?

When it was (for allits faults) simple and straightforward fun?

When all the devs had to do was just add to the canvass they had built rather than nerf the fun out of the powers and position us so that farming became a necessary part of the game if you really wanted your char to rock?

Where has the soul of this game gone? And, more to the point can it ever come back again?

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In the style of Sid from the Vicar of Dibley...

"Yes.. yees.. yes..yeees....... No"

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How about putting a sensible cap on xp per hour game wide?
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

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Did Blizzard ever test their RaF system? Then why people only use it to lvl 4 characters to 60 in 1 day? Did they ever test the skills in GW, making nearly unbeatable farming bots? This all those numberous MMO's test their security, and yet they are fill with 'anti GG' cheaters.

Its not the system, is the player. They gave a tool, players abused it. Portscanners were made for security, now they only used to find 'holes'.

Give a kid a pencil, he will draw you a nice picture. Give a convict a pencil, he will kill his inmates.

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i'm aware of all this. But surely the devs are too. Which reprompts my question:
If they knew it was going to happen, why introduce this in the first place? It completely flys in the face of everything the game is trying to achieve.

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I suspect if the devs truely & honestly wanted to stop farming they'd need to do something really drastic...however doing something drastic/stopping farming would risk losing alot of subscription fees. For example, they could put level restrictions on every zone, ie you cant enter a zone until your a certain level, or you cant enter a zone until your a certain level..or do something drastic with the sidekick system like limiting the number of levels below that can be sidekicked..

Only something drastic is gonna stop such "easy" leveling, however nerfing MA into oblivion to that it serves no real purpose isnt a good enough solution ie lowering xp or inf to practically nothing isnt gonna work...just means less people are gonna use something that looks like it took alot of time to impliment

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Why can't there just be a cap on the amount of XP you can earn in any given hour?
it can't be hard for them to data mine and come up with a fair amount...

They can keep this inf coming if they like but surely xp has to be capped.

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In terms of money many people have wasted months of subscription, if they knew before that they could of done what people are doing now then are probably gutted and feel somewhat robbed of money and time best spent on other games.

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I led a major SG. In the states and here. PLing was banned but i never had complaints. And I can tell you leveling, across 4 SGs was pretty standard and normal. And as far as I know, virtually everyone levelled at a fairly reasonable rate, the odd pler excepted.

This went on for years. What has happened to this game to degenerate like this?

I dont remember anyone wanting to rush their alts particularily. It's like its become a culture now, rather than enjoy the character, just get him up there literally as fast as you can.

When I think I used to deliberately play in debt, to slow the last few levels progress...

What the heck happened to the average players mentality?

I honestly think this is the fault of Inventions, because it is forever forcing you to farm to get the next set enhancement (assuming yo want to get involved in the set IO culture.)
I'd swear this mentality wasn't prevelant before. But now look at it.