gec72
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Quote:I would classify having a field crafter as outside the bounds of "casual". Admittedly I don't craft many common IOs*, but I've never once memorized a recipe on any of my characters.Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
The one thing that always makes sure I am flush. Getting Common IOs early
At level 25, 30, 35, 40, 45 and 50 buying a single ACC SO at each 5 level increment (so no 'greening up') = 266 112 inf
Crafting from memory including buying the salvage at a reasonably patient (ie overnight cost) is ~60 000 inf.
200K inf saved per slot at 22. Usually more for me, as in addition to having a field crafter I normally have the characters put patient bids out at below my cost to craft
Even as late as level 40 crafting commons is a saving over buying a level 40, 45 and 50 SO.
That really adds up over time.
Two Acc DOs at 12 and 17 is 14 175, if you can snipe a acc IO at 15 for less than that, you come out ahead in inf as well as with a better enhancement value.
* I usually figure - perhaps mistakenly - that I'm better off marketing the salvage, vendoring the recipe, and saving the crafting cost than making the IO.
edit: 40/45/50 SO are 200,448. Vendor price + craft cost for a 40 ACC looks to be 115,425, so I guess you'd need to clear about 85k selling one Alchemical Silver and one Scientific Theory. Perhaps that won't always be possible. But, a lot of the time I am hoping to slot Set IOs rather than common IOs by level 40, so... -
Quote:Saving the merits for 50 could well be the difference, though now that I come to think of it, my Dom (the 100M+) might be the only toon that leveled up largely in the age of merits, and that's probably not completely.* I'll also buy my share of recipes, which I guess does add up.Originally Posted by Nethergoat
All his drops were sold on the market, except for a few recipes that I crafted and slotted. I saved up his merits until he hit 50 then rolled them all and sold the good stuff- I don't have time to run TFs and I finished him off before they bumped up the merit rewards for running story arcs, so he was definitely on the low end of that spectrum.
*forgot my DB/WP scrapper. I can't remember if she has more or less inf than the Dom, but it's probably close. -
312M sounds on the high end of things, unless I'm hoarding more than I thought I was or drops are generating more inf (could be the case with inflation). That's how I typically play - solo, selling or crafting drops, etc. I think I've had one toon break the 100M barrier, and most seem to finish in the 50-70M range. My WM/Shield brute is almost level 48 and hasn't even reached 30M yet (though I think he's largely unlucky; my Widow is only 36 and she has I think 70M).
As for the hoarding, 99% of the time rare invention salvage goes straight into base storage for later crafting (whichever character needs it). I'll also do this with some inventions if I know I have another build that requires it.
edit: Though I will say that the brute has both a Numina unique and a Kinetic Combat D/E/R slotted; I think both were his own rolls, and he'd be a bit wealthier if those had been sold rather than slotted. -
Quote:Well, she might say that to set it apart from the Champions Nemesis system specifically. I've not played it, but it sounds like in that system you design your own foe - minions, powers, costume, etc. Then they pop up here and there.Originally Posted by DarkGob
I don't really see the distinction aside from what it's called. Also, War Witch is female.
A doppleganger setup might provide you with a customized foe based on your own powers and costume, but you wouldn't be the one customizing it. Well, you would, but not in the same manner as a "nemesis" system. I think that's a big enough difference. There might not be the opportunity for you to create The Joker to your Batman, but the game might be able to create a "Dark Batman" (yeah, I know - nevermind that the Crime Syndicate version of Batman is Owlman...)
I thought when Dark Mirror was first announced that they might be introducing maybe an arc or two dealing with the leadup to GR/Praetoria where you encounter your Praetorian counterpart. I still think that's a possibility, and I think it would be pretty neat. -
Quote:Also worth noting that that one bid that remains for the IO is almost assuredly for 1.1M, and is just as likely placed by the person selling them for 7M.Originally Posted by Organica
Next up we have Decimation damage/recharge at level 40, which is the highest level for this set. Maybe because they don't go to 50, this set is not one of the most popular of ranged damage sets, but it still sells reliably well.
Now a non-savvy market user might look at this and say, "The recipe sells for as much as 3 million, and the crafted IO sells for as little as 1.1 million. There's no reason to buy and craft this recipe." But the important bit of information here is that there are actually only 9 IOs listed, and yet the last 5 sales are within the last 24-36 hours. Also, the recipe has sold for as little as 1.5 million and the crafted IO has sold for as much as 7 million. With so few crafted IOs for sale, you can list at very close to that 7 million mark and expect them to sell, at least within the next several days or a week. Put in a bid for the recipe at 1.5 million (you might be able to buy them even lower if you're patient, there aren't all that many people bidding) and then list the crafted IOs as high as 6.6 million, or 6.1 million.
Remember that a new blaster set is coming out this Spring. Ranged and Targeted AoE IOs will probably go up in price. -
Yeah, my mindset is generally different from those. I play to 50, and along the way I want to pick up set pieces. Doesn't particularly matter if it's a level 36 piece; for me that's good because I'll be able to use it for 17 levels. So from the 30s on I might be getting three slots at a level, and with them three more set bonuses. I like to have my Mids build almost complete by the time I ding 50, because I know I am going to focus more attention on another character at that time.
Of course, I try not to put things into my build that I don't think I'll get. So I don't plan for purples (obviously), or Numina/Miracle/LotG (or I'll place them but not really rely on them. I have a Regenerative Tissue +Regen...somewhere unslotted because I didn't have it planned in any of my builds. -
So really what you guys are saying then is that the merit cap is too high.
I guess I understand - it's like having liquidity in real estate, or gold, or foreign currency, or whatever. And for those with vast amounts of inf, no use in cashing them in if they really don't need to. If you're given a drop on the spot, you're forced to deal with it much sooner.
I guess what I don't get is folks in the same forum lamenting that there isn't enough supply, but at the same time admitting that their own actions help lead to the lack of supply. And then that the devs should do something about it. Isn't that more or less saying "Well, we can't really control our own behavior. Devs, you need to do something to force us into acting in the best interest of the markets?" That in essence, the devs gave the players too much freedom?
NordBlast: before merits, were you still running two TF a day? Were you selling the drops? -
Quote:Well, I definitely agree with the last one. But do we know for a fact that merits are being hoarded, and by hoarded do you mean saved for a higher level, or not rolled at all?Originally Posted by FourSpeed
The three big factors merits introduced were: Merits *instead* of tf drops -- ie. Posi's Bait and Switch move away from the original "in addition to" statement.
That was a BIG hit to supply.
Merits being non-tradeable and non-sellable lead directly to hoarding behaviour, and again, a distinctly reduced supply of items to market.
Finally, the way merit rolls were implemented led directly to a skew towards
higher level players being the largest group of rollers, getting drops at the
top level of the io ranges which is a notable factor in the lack of mid-range
supply.
If most of the supply pre-merits was coming from educated players who knew that running Katies ad nauseum was the fastest means of production (and let's face it, that was an exploit), I'm not sure it would follow that those players would move to other means and then just hold onto the merits because they didn't know what to do with them (though yes, some for a while held onto them out of spite). Nevermind players who earn merits who don't run TF (hi) or can generate them via Ouroboros at a breakneck clip.
What I think we'd need to see is:
1. How fast TF drops were generated pre-merits
2. How fast the equivalent - merits/20 - are generated now
3. How many merits are stored on characters (hoarded)
I doubt we'll see these of course, but they might be informative.
Things are further complicated by AE of course - too much inf, fast leveling, recommendations against using tickets for gold rolls, etc. -
Lunch With a Dev.
Well, that or a very expensive in-game social function.
edit: heck, you could even RP it as a charity ball to benefit...I don't know, families of lost heroes or something. -
Quote:So...I'm doing my part to help through soloing!Originally Posted by UberGuy
It does.
Oh. That reminds me. Teaming is actually an inflationary force. 8-man teams don't generate more recipes per kill, but they generate 2.5x a much total inf per kill as a solo player. (That's then divided among all 8 team members.) That increases the ratio of inf in the system to recipes (and salvage) in the system. Obviously everyone doesn't play on 8-man teams, but it's probably safe to bet that a large fraction of the players aren't soloing.
Over-level mobs do basically the same thing. They have the same chance per-mob of dropping something, but they each drop more inf than an even-level version.
Playing in the AE after your tickets are capped does something similar. You create money, but stop gaining even the potential to create additional recipes as a result.
Basically, anything that can create meaningful inf but can't drop recipes helps drive prices up. Anything that increases inf rewards without increasing drop probabilities proportionally helps drive prices up.
Shouldn't at least some of teaming inflation be offset by teams running TF? A team of 8 whizzing through an ITF creates 208 merits in about an hour - solo this might take me the better part of a career. Granted, teams running endless newspaper missions don't help there at all (assuming random boss Pool C drops are negligible). I wonder what the TF to non-TF team ratio is.
The over-level mob issue has led me to not up critter difficultly as soon as before, not because of drop-to-inf but because of drop-to-xp. Especially with patrol xp speeding things up already (typically rotate two if not three toons). -
Quote:He could try to enlist these folk.Originally Posted by Scythus
Let me explain this simply. You are just one man claiming the Black Market is flawed, whereas there's something like 3 or five of us at least in this thread alone who say it is not. Ergo, the burden of proof resides on your shoulders.
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I thought prevailing sentiment was that the BM was a problem* -- and that's why there are constant calls to merge the BM and WW.
* yes, a problem borne of another problem, population -
I'm curious about the stuff that used to be plentiful but now is scarce. What sort of sets are we talking here? I won't argue that the market isn't in short supply, but I roll merits when I get them and I still find a lot of recipes that have some demand but not enough to justify listing them. Things that sell say, in the 50k range (or things that hop between 50k, 1M, 100k, 500k). Someone must want them, but it could take a couple weeks to find a buyer. For that little return I may not bother listing it, because it will just eat up a market slot (curse you, Ghost Widow's Embrace!). Same with some Pool Bs. Touch of the Nictus: Accuracy/Endurance/Heal? I have two of them. Seems like a good set. Keep it? List it for 50k? Vendor it? List it for more, but wait a month for it to sell?
I'd imagine this is even worse for marketeers or those generating more merits. They really have to deal in recipes that make better profits; I'd guess the stuff in the middle is either getting deleted or vendored. Recipes are produced, but by the same players that are generating the good stuff.
(I could be off-base...I need to get a better grip on what sets are in demand) -
As long as we're on a PvP tangent...
My son has recently discovered Recluse's Victory. He had a fun time controlling pillboxes and robots there...when nobody was around.
I warned him however that should he encounter someone, he'd be in trouble. He eventually did, and relayed that he was held then killed in one shot. Then killed a couple more times. Then he decided to do something else.
Seems to be a barrier for new PvPers - they give up before they even learn how to do it (I did the same). I wonder if there needs to be some system to "raise" PvP characters. A couple of possible approaches:
* A distinct PvP leveling process, where kills and other pvp tasks lead to a sort of pvp xp. Rather than have the PvP zones set you at a PvE level, have a zone progression based on your merit as a PvPer. So a PvP toon starts in Bloody Bay, gets good enough at PvP to go to Siren's Call, then Warburg, etc. Maybe even add a couple zones to fill in gaps. Doesn't matter what your PvE level is. If you're good enough, you progress. If you're not you don't, but you stay in a zone with others of your ability.
* A chess-like rating system. Never PvP'd before? Ok, you're a 1000. Get beat a few times, rating goes down. Win a few times, rating goes up. How much it goes up depends on the rating of your opponent. If you're a 2500 and you constantly beat on 800s, you don't make a lot of progress. If you're a 1000 but beat a 1400 - well...good job.
Now, tying this back into the market, somewhat. Adjust the drop rate based on the ratings of the combatants. Again, if you're beating up on substandard competition - farming them - you don't have as good a chance at getting a drop. If you're defeating other pvpers on your level, your chances are improved. Above your level? Better still. Of course, so we don't have 1000s farming 2500s, the rating system would really sting that 2500 for getting defeated by an adversary that low. Maybe also increase the rate just off of your level as well. If you've earned a high ranking, you've been at it for a while and you deserve a better chance than someone who's just started out. -
Quote:May not be relevant to this particular conversation and I'm sure you're aware of it, but folks have complained of the sub-50 supply going down (which some ebil marketeers are trying to combat).Originally Posted by UberGuy
Level 50s are now earning more than double the inf/hour they did before I16, but I've yet to see someone complaining about the rising price of IOs account for that. Similarly with shifts in supply, such as AE exploits (which are active currently). If purples actually become 5 times more rare than they were before, are price increases unjustified?
I wonder if there is an overall trend of more players playing 50s than before, both to earn more inf and to chase purples (not helped by folks waiting on DP/GR to roll new toons, either..of course, that should also drive sub-50 demand down a bit, outside of those wanting sets for exemplaring...bah).
Anyway...back to the normal discussion. -
Quote:Hello!Originally Posted by Ad Astra
OK - I'm pretty much fine with that.
I do think that there is a "casual informed player" subset out there, who understands how the Market works but chooses not to play in it very much.
I also think there are "casual players" who don't farm anything at all, not even Merits & AE Tickets. Those players come to the Market, see it as expensive, and then decide not to participate. Those players then go back to what they were previously doing - playing the game thru story arcs or papers/scanners or whatever else they found "fun".
Sometimes this game is only about blasting thru foes without thought of rewards other than stress relief.
I think I'm mostly in the 'A' group. I'd be surprised to find that there are more B, C, or D - it never really occurs to me to bid on 10 of something.
Typically, if there's something I need, I go look up the recipe on the market. Most of the time I figure (often wrongly, I guess) that the crafted IOs are going to be listed at a crafting premium.
I'll see that the last 5 has say, 3M, 3M, 3M, 123,123, 3M. And it has 11 bids on it, none for sale. I'll think "aha - looks like someone is trying to buy them at 123,123 and flip them for 3M." So I'll put in a bid for one at 200k and wait a while.
Sometimes I will do this at a couple of different levels, and very occasionally I'll get lucky and have more than one fill. Then I'll craft it if the salvage is cheap or relist it at a higher price.
As for farming, I don't really do that either. I'll collect merits from arcs and some TFs and roll them randomly when I have enough. When I get to 50, I play another toon that is still leveling. -
By some, sure. I would think it would be a combination of "hahaha - look at me, I have so much money and you don't because you're [Dexter]styuuuupid[/Dexter]"; and a view that those playing the market aren't playing the market to further for the benefit of their characters, but are just doing it to amass more influence and items that they can ever possibly use. In other words, they're just plain greedy.
Of course, those might be attitudes that would come across on the forums or in chat channels. Similar to non-PVPers and trash talk - they just don't like having their noses rubbed in it.
(Speculation. Personally, I just deal with the market. If I ever feel I need more INF, I'll concentrate more on the market. Now, PvP, THAT I just avoid like the plague.
)
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Quote:Actually...that's not so silly a question. I'm guessing that the OP got to the area but didn't go into the mission. I'm also guessing that the "door" was probably a snake hole, which can be easy to miss if you don't know what you're looking for.Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
keep going. it will end. it is probably the defeat all snakes in lab/base mission. oh, and silly question, did you actually go into the mission?
edit: or maybe not. If it's an instanced mission and you did go in, just make sure that you get every last one on the map. If you log out though (going on for "multiple days"), that will reset the mission. -
Quote:Nonono - I mean a five minute mile. It's only five minutes of running, but you have to average 12MPH, which I'm guessing most people won't be able to maintain (if they can even GET to that speed). It takes a real effort - not only the actual mile, but the training to get in the shape to do it (I'm guessing those running the speed ITFs didn't start out running them as efficiently as they do now). But just about everybody should be able to walk/jog for 30 minutes (i.e. at a casual pace) and cover at least that same mile - just like anyone can slog through a newspaper/radio mission.Originally Posted by Gearford
how much effort does it take to click combat stealth?
OT: I dont understand the analogy, for most people a 5 mile IS jogging 30 minutes, now if you mean a 5 mile jog vs a 2.5 interval run, which is how im gonna take it for now. same thing in the end though, you are sweaty, tired and out of breath (unless you are me, then you are amped up to play some CoX)
I guess my point is that the typical player isn't constantly running speed ITFs, and probably isn't a good enough player to. Ones who are are the exceptions. Most players are taking the game at a much slower jog.
(combat stealth? do all characters have that?)
edit: and kids are enough of a mess w/o trying to eat Chef straight out of the can -
Ok, it's not much, but:
Level 15-19
You received Impervious Skin: End/Rech/Res (Recipe).
You received Impervium Armor: Resistance (Recipe).
And the other day:
Level 35-39
You received Kinetic Combat: Dam/End/Rech (Recipe).
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Quote:Yeah, I guess that's a valid interpretation. I was thinking more in terms of #6 here: informal, relaxed (though SOME players are #4Originally Posted by Teeth
Edit: gec72, I usually use the word "casual" in forms 2 and 5. Someone who only plays 2 evenings a week, but who has used the same 2 characters for the last four years and therefore has a purpled-out Warshade, could possibly be casual. Someone who downloaded Mids', spent five hours reading guides, ran numbers on ten builds, and then took 3 months to get the resulting character to 50 while playing nothing else--still possibly casual. It's entirely possible to do casual marketeering, casual build optimization, casual RP, etc.; I'm still very unimpressed when someone who does all of these things every day claims to be a "casual player."
I don't really understand why people even bother claiming to be casual players. I get the general idea--that they expect to be catered to as some sort of marketing-targeted group--but people usually sound ridiculous trying to defend that position. ("YOU CAN TELL BY HOW LOUD I'M SCREAMING THAT I HAVE ONLY A PASSING INTEREST IN THESE DEVELOPMENTS! RAAAAAGE!") ). I'm an avid player - I play nearly every day and have for the past 4 1/2 years - but I usually do so in what I consider a casual - or at least non hard-core manner. I don't seek the best of the best IO, I don't take on the toughest challenges (soloing AV, running x8 mob sizes, taking on level 54 Rikti).
For someone to say "I play only a couple hours here and there, but make 200M a week - and I'm still casual!" (paraphrasing)...well, yes, perhaps by time you are casual, but performance-wise, that's not "happening by chance" or "coming to pass without design." The results are a result of effort, and they're not typical. By the same token, I guess my use of Mids to plot every power, slot, and enhancement on the way to 50 probably isn't casual either.
Heh. Very true. But 45 mintues of a speed ITF is more involved than beating up a warehouse full of Mooks (and maybe taking 20 minutes in the middle of the mission to warm up a can of Chef Boyardee).Quote:Originally Posted by Tonality
A 45 minute speed ITF is far less draining than a casual 2 hour ITF. -
Quote:Is it though? I would think casual would equal leisurely. I would consider a speed TF to be higher impact - requiring more attention and more energy. Like say, running a 5:00 mile as opposed to jogging for 30 minutes. You also need to be somewhat skilled to be able to pull off one, whereas any old joe can accomplish the latter.Originally Posted by Gearford
being a casual gamer is an expression of time, not effort.
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Quote:I'll use AE as a diversion now and then, but I can't see using it full-time as a leveling tool. I feel like I'm better off just dealing with what drops I get (especially for salvage) than formulating a plan for efficient use of tickets. Plus, like Humility says - running regular content there's no sifting through arcs hoping to find one that's suitable (well written and constructed, not nigh-on-impossible, etc). And for whatever reason I still feel like AE content is "fake".Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You can also run arcs on your higher level characters for merits through the flashback system. It'll never be as efficient as TFs as you say, but it would probably be a good deal faster.
I also think that for solo players, who don't have much time to play and can't get in on TFs that the AE is a better choice for leveling. Tickets come in quite a bit faster than merits, due to not getting any other rewards.
The advantage is that you get to tailor your rewards to the character. No more Mutant origin SOs for your Natural origin character.
You can also focus buy exactly what kind of salvage you need, and can even turn a decent proft from selling off choice pieces of salvage or bronze rolls.
The only disadvantage is that you can't ticket buy specific IO set recipies, but outside of that, everything is there to be purchased without the use of inf.
I should use Oro a little more, but it seems strange to make progress by adding powers and slots to become more powerful only to negate that by exemplaring down 20 levels. I can see it for a 50 if you've exhausted other content, but once I reach 50 I typically move on to another character. -
Quote:Right - also having a 10yo (and a 7yo), that's exactly where I am in regards to TFs/SFs. If I am absolutely certain that the kids are occupied - which usually involves them being out of the house (or out of stateOriginally Posted by Humility
I've actually never run a TF, ever. Even in the timeframes I can sit for that long, I am constantly on call to take care of a kid that wakes up or something similar. When I can't 100% commit to being a contributing part of the TF, I don't join as a matter of courtesy. My level of casual means I will never see that content, I'm fine with that. It also means that merits are not a reliable way for me to get high end IO's. Which leaves the market. Which is flawed if you do not have merit purchases to bolster it. ) - I might join a TF. If there's a chance I'll need to attend to them in any way (and there are seemingly countless ways), I won't, like you say as a matter of courtesy.
I'll get merits from soloing, but that's nowhere near as efficient as TFs. At least not while you're leveling. I'll get decent builds this way, but things like the Numina/Miracle uniques, LoTG recharge, etc. are pretty much limited to lucky rolls (eh, I'll add the Kinetic Combat triple too which I was lucky enough to roll the other day). But I'm ok with that. -
Quote:That doesn't sound very casual, at least not to me. I would consider myself a "casual" player, and I'm lucky if I participate in a TF once a month.Originally Posted by Tokyo
And I try to run atleast 3 to 4 speed SFs a day if not every other day for merits.
(though yes, in many ways I am also a "lazy" player)