Werner
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Quote:I'd be shocked and dismayed if Shield Defense got a brutal nerfing. Wouldn't surprise me if Hamios stopped doing their thing in Active Defense, though.Originally Posted by mauk2
If SR could slot more resist, the brutal nerfing sliding toward shield might not be so inevitable. -
Quote:If you're into concept, and it just doesn't fit your concept, I'd say you can skip it. It's big, but overall it isn't set defining, gimp your scrapper without it big. You can still have a much better than average Scrapper if you know what you're doing.Originally Posted by Vitality
Not necessarily a tight build as much as it is a concept build.
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You lose some DPS, but even more importantly, you lose your burst damage capability. That's pretty significant in normal play. You CAN make do without a build up power, but you'd better be getting a LOT in return for giving it up. Really really tight build?
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Quote:Indeed, there was a lot of grousing when loot was introduced. I think much of the grousing was reasonable. The lack of loot WAS one of the things that made City of Heroes different, and for many, it was refreshing. I personally am very happy with the loot aspects of this game, and would probably have long since left had that not been added. But I can understand how many would be unhappy with it, a bit of bait and switch if you will, particularly if you've been around for a long time. I also think it would have been better for the game overall, based on the VERY small cross section of opinions I've heard, if the devs hadn't introduced purples and PvP IOs, or if they just had to, at least not at the level of rarity they currently have. Perhaps the game WOULD appeal to more people if drop rates on the rarest items were now increased. I don't want that, as I like a game that keeps me on the treadmill chasing after my shinies. For MY fun I'd prefer it take about twice as long to get to 50, for drop rates on many items (not purples or PvP IOs) to decrease, and for the influence cap to be removed so that the rarest and best items can find their equilibrium price somewhere north of two billion. I just don't think I'm in sync with the majority of the player base in that regard.Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Fair enough. I will note that the game promotes itself as a Superhero game, and that many people who play the game started playing specifically because it did not have loot.
I also don't think people that level to 50 in a week and want to purple out right then and there represent the majority of the player base either. I think the average player is somewhere in between. Well, actually, the average player is somewhere off in left field, not even on the axis between these two viewpoints. The average player probably doesn't have a 50 and isn't worried about purples and PvP IOs in the first place. -
Quote:Yes, OK, my post was being intentionally dense, which probably isn't a good tactic to take. Most people in the buy-it-nao crowd are unlikely to go through the thought process I laid out for them. I think that's what's happening, but THEY, or at least what seems to be their most common representation on this forum, do NOT seem to think that's what's happening.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Don't forget that a significant fraction of these complaints, including that referenced by the OP blame marketeers/flippers for long-term price increases, like how purples now cost 5-10x as much as they did around I12. That's a completely different bag altogether, and doesn't fit into any of the (completely reasonable) viewpoints you enumerated.
Perhaps they're being more sophisticated than I give them credit for, and I KNOW that some are intelligent and thoughtful enough that they're not falling for such a simplistic trap, but I think many that start with "it was for sale for 1 million, and now it's for sale for 2 million" then continue their line of thinking with something like, "and then the next flipper buys for 2 million and sells for 4 million, and the next buys for 4 million and sells for 8 million, and soon prices are sky high on anything the flippers are playing with." Or maybe the slightly more sophisticated, "and if enough flippers do this over a long period of time, prices will obviously rise overall as people develop new expectations." But that's like jumping from step three of a logical argument to step 27. It's WAY too big of a logical leap. There is MUCH more going on here, whether or not you agree with a conclusion that flippers cause inflation. -
Maybe everyone just has different definitions of "raises the price".
Marketeers think of this as "inflation" in the sense of the equilibrium price or "raising the price at which supply and demand for the item equalizes". Flippers don't cause inflation in this sense.
Someone else might think of this as "it was for sale for 1 million, and now it's for sale for 2 million, so they raised the price." TRUE!
Someone else might think of this as "Without the flipper, I could put in a paitent bid for 800 thousand and wait, and it would usually fill within a few days. Now those bids no longer fill. Now I have to bid over a million, even if I'm being a paitent bidder. The flipper raised the price I pay." TRUE!
Someone else might think of this as "I just bid higher than the last five, and I buy on weekends when prices are highest. I used to pay 5 million, and still sometimes had to wait because there were none available. But now that there's a flipper working this niche, I'm getting it for about 3 million, and I never have to wait. The flipper lowered the price I pay and made it easier for me to get what I want NAO." TRUE!
And this is where my confusion comes in. Aren't most of the people complaining about flippers in the buy it nao crowd? Aren't they the ones most directly benefiting from the flippers? -
Rehashing a bit, I think the general argument for Shield Defense over Super Reflexes goes like this:
Code:It's a bit simplistic. It takes a lot more work to soft cap a Shield Defense, and that's work that could have gone elsewhere - endurance reduction, recharge, what have you. The 95% DDR requires a level 50 with serious recharge and Hamios, and there's at least a possibility that the devs consider it an exploit, and that it may go away in a future issue. I haven't looked carefully, but I think the scaling resistance is in the same neighborhood as the more straightforward resistance on Shield Defense. Super Reflexes gets Quickness, which can help you get into better attack chains, which can at least narrow the gap on the damage front in some cases.SD SR ------- ------- Soft Cap yes yes DDR 95% 95% Resistance yes scaling Hit points yes no Damage Buff yes no Shield Charge Woohoo! Curses!
Still, I'll agree that generally speaking, for a maxed out level 50, Shield Defense is everything that Super Reflexes is AND MORE. If you're not on a maxed out 50, I think you can much more easily argue for Super Reflexes.
As far as balancing the two, I'd start by making the DDR in Active Defense unenhanceable, as appears intended from it not accepting defense IOs, but some dev forgot about Hamios in the rush to put the set into play. Then 95% defense debuff resistance is something that only Super Reflexes offers, something to make it special. And then just track that for a while. Might be enough of a nerf, since I think it's mostly on the maxed-out builds that Shield Defense pulls significantly ahead. -
Quote:Woohoooo! Awesome necropost. But I'm game.Originally Posted by Lord_Of_Gravity
I whole heartedly agree with The_Question ive got a 50 regen and a 50 sr and regen is by far the most survivable ive ever played. i have not got any of the others past lvl 20 though. But regen is never hit and run. If your running with regen your just horrible at being a scrapper and should go back to your blaster. Regen is meant to die. Its gonna die thats why it has a rez.
The secondaries are pretty well balanced these days. SR and Regen do have very good survivability, though you have to work for it on Regen. Other secondaries have good survivability as well.
And to turn things around, "If you're dying with your Regen, you're just horrible at being a scrapper and should go back to being a blaster. Regen is meant to live. That's why it has so very many tools to keep you alive." (OK, OK, you'll probably die a lot on Regen while you learn the ropes. It's a school of hard knocks. I'd probably die a lot if I played it now because I'm out of practice.)
There are two schools of thought in regards to taking your rez. I'm firmly in the school that the power choice could have been devoted to keeping me alive, and that wakies and the hospital are good enough options for those rare times that I DO die. On the other side are people who apparently die way too often.
Oh, and I point and laugh at you now for falling for the necropost, ClawsandEffect.
And yeah, Amy, I think someone has a definition of "survivable" that doesn't match mine if it includes being meant to die often enough that a rez becomes a reasonable power pick. *chuckle*
Anyway, welcome to the Scrapper forum, Lord Of Gravity! Sorry if we're poking a little fun. We're actually pretty nice folks around here. And if you have difficult questions, the Scrapper forum has a lot of very experienced people, number crunchers, min/maxers, powergamers, anything you need to get solid answers. -
Nice job.
You CAN get more detailed information than this by following things over time. You CAN be manipulated by other marketeers by simply trusting this information on a single snapshot on a single day. But I don't bother looking in more detail. I mostly just believe what I see and take the gamble because I don't like following a niche for a week before jumping in. I guess that makes me an "exploit it nao!" marketeer. I occasionally take a bath on something, but most of my gambles make me lots of influence. -
Quote:My fun is NOT more important than yours. I agree with that point completely, and won't debate you on it.Originally Posted by eryq2
Fun IS subjective. But if someone wants to play a style where they play 1, one, toon for years and wants to wait for pieces they get in missions or place bids over years to build a toon then why can't i play a style where i like to make several toons at once and level them and IO them as fast as i want? Why is YOUR fun more important than mine? See, subjective is the key term here. Nothing makes the way YOU want to play more important than the way I want to play. My 15$ holds the same current value as your 15$.
That's why we need more drops, so that EVERYONE has a place where they can enjoy what they like to do as long as it's not exploiting or cheating.
That said, I suspect you'll find that ALMOST every MMO on the market is geared more towards the patient, long term crowd. People who want to run on that treadmill for months before hitting their maximum level of power, rather than people who only want to put in a few days of jogging. I'm guessing that almost no MMO caters to people who want to level up and max out a couple of toons per week, as it sounds like you want. I strongly suspect that most people would quickly lose interest in an MMO that was that easy. There's nothing WRONG with wanting an MMO that easy; it just doesn't tend to be what most people playing these games want, and they're catering to the majority.
Similarly, if what makes marketeers (a minority) happy conflicts with what would make the main player base (the majority) happy, the marketeers are just going to have to suck it up and deal with changes
However, there's a BIG difference between what would make the main player base HAPPY, and implementing ill-informed market suggestions from people who claim to represent the main player base. Admitting that there is inflation on top end goods and that probably the majority would be happier without this inflation is NOT the same thing as admitting that every half-baked idea for fixing it should be implemented. MOST ideas that are proposed are BAD ideas that for the sake of the main player base should not be implemented, even if I agree there is a problem. -
Along similar lines, I do wish they'd left Zookeeper bugged at 10,000 Rikti monkeys. When you saw someone with the Zookeeper badge back then, it filled you with a combination of awe and pity. Now it's just so... pedestrian.
Not ALL mistakes are bad, devs. Sometimes mistakes make for a more interesting game than what you intended. That's a good thing. Try to focus on the mistakes that make the game worse than you intended, not the ones that make it better than you intended.
(Granted, I think the Numina proc "bug" is just "different than intended", not better or worse. In that case, I recommend letting sleeping dogs lie. Change for the sake of change is simply an annoyance.) -
In the teens, ALL* Scrappers suck.
I don't have experience with Electrical Melee, but neither Shield Defense nor Super Reflexes are particularly good in the low levels. Super Reflexes simply blooms late, and Shield Defense gets better offense by sacrificing survivability, at least when not IO'd to the teeth or backed up by something like Parry from Broad Sword or Siphon Life from Dark Melee. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from a single comparison of your level 16 Elec/SR vs. someone else's level 17 Elec/Shield. Oh, and yeah, as Iggy indicates, they might have already picked up their taunt aura, so might have had a lot more incoming damage than you.
*except the ones that don't -
Different AVs are more difficult for different heroes. Bobcat's main trick, I'd say, is mild defense debuffs. That's not going to be an issue for Super Reflexes, so she shouldn't be particularly difficult (comparatively - they're all difficult).
You can follow the link in my signature for videos of me fighting the Praetorian AVs. The Alexei one that pops up won't be of much use to you, since it's all fast forward and very few comments on the AVs themselves. Most useful to you is probably the series with Sergei, as I tend to describe any difficulties I faced soloing them on Dark Melee/Super Reflexes, which should be similar. Mind you, I don't have movies of the ones I couldn't solo, like Malaise, so it isn't a complete set of information. Might be a good starting point, though. I know I read back through my own comments from doing it on Werner and Sergei before attempting each AV on Alexei.
Mind you, if you like the thrill of discovery, DON'T read my video descriptions. You can learn for yourself what each AV is like, and you probably already know some of it from fighting them as EBs.
Anyway, grats on the pylon!
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Although both will probably have a similar level of capability, they're going to FEEL completely different, mostly due to the secondaries. Willpower is very fire and forget. Regeneration is about micromanaging your survivability, and takes a lot of focus when you crank up the difficulty level. Willpower, since it benefits from the number of enemies around you, might be better for team play. Similarly, Dual Blades, at least if spec'd for AoE, would also probably be better for team play. But both can solo, and both can play on teams.
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Quote:Fortunately, I have NEVER found that equation to be even REMOTELY true of mid level and above characters, even with just SOs. Your mileage may differ, but if that's a Yugo, I'm definitely driving at least a Porsche 911 on my cheapo SO and frankenslotted characters.Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The game is balanced around 1 hero = 3 even con minions. Or some such equally enjoyable point.
That isn't a Ferrari its a Yugo.
(Edit: Also, some of the most fun I've had on a track was being a passenger in an old Datsun 210 with less than a hundred horsepower being driven by an experienced racer. It isn't always what you drive; it's how you drive it.) -
Quote:Yeah, it would have been no problem had it been fixed long, long ago. It's always seemed a little weird to me, but it never seemed bugged to me. It seemed like such a specific effect as to be intentional. Guess I was wrong.Originally Posted by Stargazer
I agree that it's decidedly sub-optimal. Hence my earlier lament that this wasn't changed long ago - before people were planning builds around it.
I don't mind when they fix things where I've assumed it was a bug. I was taking advantage of the old bug where the Gaussian proc wasn't unique, so you could slot multiple Gaussian sets. While I couldn't say for sure if the bug was in the description or in the effect, there was obviously a disconnect, so I knew not to count on it. Figuring it was going away some day, I didn't get attached to how things were. I pertty much knew my build was temporary, and decided I could live with that in that specific case. I didn't know that my build for Alexei, which I spent ALL of my influence on, was going to be temporary like that.
(I have plenty of influence again, so that angle isn't really a problem for me, but I can see others being very upset with that aspect of it. I'm just upset that several respecs in a row are likely to be called for to fix this unanticipated (by me) problem. Perhaps I should have anticipated better this time, like I did for the Gaussians. Fact is, I didn't. But I'm probably just talking in circles at this point. Just ranting to blow off a little steam.) -
Yeah, and I don't think there was any reason to fix the level 50 earnings bug either. And that's despite me spending most of my time on my 50s and benefiting significantly from the fix. I don't think it was a good thing for the game as a whole to increase the earning power of level 50s. I think our earning power was already comparatively too high on 50s.
(Edit: So it's not like I like everything that buffs me, and dislike everything that nerfs me. I do care about the game as a whole. But personally, I probably care most about not changing the rules all the time. I hate to "have to" either retire or completely respec my characters every god damn issue. That goes almost as much for introducing new and more powerful IOs or buffing my powers as it does for "bug fixes" that end up requiring the same effort to adapt. But I do, being human, hate adapting to nerfs more than adapting to buffs. I pretty much dislike them both, though. Perhaps I want a more static set of rules than most people.) -
Quote:I kind of view 1-50 as the test drive, the trial period, just getting an idea what the character is like. If I really like what I see, and can come up with a good plan for continued advancement (i.e., a good IO build), then I'll keep going... and going, and going, and going. But most of my 50s have a combination of SOs and frankenslotting because I decided I wasn't enjoying them enough to continue on the post 50 IO path. I played them for my 1-50 trial period, decided, "nah", and moved on. They aren't necessarily completely abandoned. I may still dig them out now and again. But they're not getting big hours.Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
That's pretty much my view, too. Once I get up to the mid-30s, then I can usually tell if the character is going to be something I'll want to play for a long time, and then I'll do a 50 build in Mids and start putting in low bids for the nice set recipes. Otherwise, I'm fine with common IOs and cheap sets until I get bored with the character and move on.
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Siphon Life IS your third attack. It should be slotted as such, and used routinely, not just when you need a heal. Mind you, if you have those two IOs in it, don't just throw them away. Just add more accuracy and mostly damage to it with new slots. Healing enhancement isn't a bad thing; it's just a lower priority than damage.
Dark Consumption and Soul Drain, on the other hand, should not be considered attacks. They're utility powers. They should be slotted with recharge instead of damage.
Honestly, you ARE short on attacks, but I still might consider picking up Hasten at 30 instead of another attack. As I said, Siphon Life is your next attack, and just needs to be slotted up. Plus Hasten will bring the attacks you have back faster. Then pick up Midnight grasp at 32. Then POSSIBLY Shadow Punch at 35, but you can see how things are going, and you might not need it. Three recharge in Hasten, and other slots get devoted to your attacks until they're full. Then probably Reconstruction (3 heal, 3 recharge) and Dull Pain (3 heal, 3 recharge).
When Hasten is up, I'd probably do this chain:
Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Siphon Life -> Smite -> Shadow Maul
To do that with Hasten up, you only need a single recharge IO in Smite, and a single recharge IO in Midnight Grasp. The others don't need recharge except for when Hasten is down. You'll still probably want some for when Hasten is down. When it's down, probably just click on whatever's available. Or add Shadow Punch to fill in the gaps. That's why I'm saying only maybe to Shadow Punch. You may be happy enough without it.
If you want to get a little more advanced, once your attacks have slots, go buy a bunch of cheapo, multi-aspect IOs on the market, and frankenslot your attacks for enhancement values with no regard to set bonuses. In particular, you should be able to significantly raise the recharge while significantly reducing the endurance requirements, and allow yourself to run that chain pretty well even while Hasten is down. As for required recharge, you want +82% in Smite, +93% in Midnight Grasp, +27% in Siphon Life and +19% in Shadow Maul. Only the first two are going to be much of a challenge while frankenslotting, and they're still doable.
Those things done, you'll probably find both your survivability and damage output significantly improved. I don't think your build is ideal, but I also don't think it warrants a respec at this point. You can just fix it as you grow through the next five or so levels.
I wouldn't worry about closing the distance on flying foes. They'll usually close with you anyway, and if they don't, just duck behind a corner to force them over to you. Air Superiority IS a good attack, but probably not worth taking unless you wanted to be a flier. Do NOT take Flurry. It isn't the overall damage that's important, it's how QUICKLY you can put out that damage. Flurry takes over three seconds, which is an eternity. It is NOT a good attack. Although it's still not the "right" number, the best number to look at on your attacks is the DPA, damage per activation second. It's at least a good way of ballparking how much an attack will help your damage output.
Unless you're PvPing, don't take Confront. -
I think it took me about two months to fully-IO Alexei, and that was despite using four toons worth of slots for my purchasing, and having most of the funds on hand (had to scramble for an extra couple billion at the end). It was almost all patient, bid-creeping bidding over days and weeks. In hind sight, I'm not sure it was worth it. I could have been using those slots to make influence at an enormous rate, paid nearly buy it nao prices, and been done in a couple weeks. But it's what I did.
Who plays one toon that long? Me. Two of my toons have over 1500 hours each on them. Frankly, wanting to play a toon that long is the only reason I can see for filling them with the best IOs available. Why do it on a character you're going to abandon in a few weeks? -
Not that anyone is reading the devs minds on this, but do you think they (mistakenly IMHO) considered this a case of "double dipping"? And that if that's their rationale, they won't extend this "fix" to the Regenerative Tissue and Miracle uniques, because those only "single dip"?
Because to me, the effects WERE consistent and were not double dipping. The +recovery was affected by endmod enhancements. The +regen was affected by heal enhancements. But now the effects are NOT consistent. These effects in Numina are not affected by enhancements, but the same effects in Regenerative Tissue and Miracle ARE affected by enhancements. That makes no sense to me. Not that I want to encourage the devs to do exactly what will screw up the build of my current pride and joy, but if enhancements shouldn't affect these IOs (reasonable, if waaaaaaaay too late in coming if this was intended all along), can we get a little consistency here?
If I'm reading this right, at this point the +regen and +recovery in Numina is less valuable than the +regen and +recovery in Regenerative Tissue and Miracle, and the only difference my little brain can come up with is "Well, yeah, but Numina has both in the same power". True! But at a reduced rate to account for the fact that both are in the same power. I really am not getting the rationale here, or at least am failing to see any rationale that wouldn't obviously apply to Regenerative Tissue and Miracle as well.
I feel like the cops just pulled me over for going 1 mph over the speed limit, and impounded my car. Don't you guys have something more important to do? I17? Going Rogue? Fixing actual problems that make players unhappy instead of happy? -
Quote:This. And I'm not accusing you, EmpireForgotten. It's just something we face in the Market Forum all the time, like you apparently face it in the PvP forum. Think of it as a common problem we share, not as an accusation.Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Interesting that this same point of view is not thought to be valid about the market. People come in to this section and spout armchair nonsense all the time, but those who actually understand the market are made out to be the bad guys.Quote:Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Arm chair analysis of something you do not participate in actively is annoying - especially to people who actually know what they are talking about.
A difference, I think, is that what PvPers do for the most part doesn't affect the rest of the community. Granted, what the marketeers do ALSO doesn't greatly affect the rest of the community, but many people THINK it does. Inflation surely isn't caused by a vast increase in available influence chasing the same or smaller number of items, it's caused by flippers and market manipulators! That sort of thing. I suppose it would be like blaming the high price of PvP IOs on the PvPers themselves. It's ridiculous, but not much less ridiculous. And if people were in the PvP forum shouting at all the PvPers for their deplorable behavior and how it affected everyone in the PvE game, I suspect the PvPers would get rightly testy.
Frankly, I'm in favor of a greater split between PvP and PvE if that's what the PvPers want. I don't have a problem with, for instance, giving them an instant level 50 with free access to all IOs, as long as that character can't be used in PvE. I don't think it's likely to happen, and I have no idea if that's what the PvPers want, but I have no objection to it. I don't PvP, but I think the PvPers deserve way better than they've gotten from this game. -
Quote:I and probably many experienced people on the Scrapper forum would disagree that the answer to every question is "Shields is clearly superior". Shield Defense is flavor of the month and a very strong set when IOd to the teeth. But it isn't blowing the curve. Outside of single-taret DPS contests (pylon soloing), people are doing just as impressive things with other powersets.Originally Posted by Sailboat
While I don't wish nerfs on anyone ( I have numerous shield characters myself), it seems to me that some slight adjustment to Shields is in order when the answer to every question is "Shields is clearly superior," as has been the case lately. A (theoretical) HO change would relegate Shields to the basic level of DDR...
Frankly such a change wouldn't even knock Shields out of the top spot for melee defensive powersets anyway.
I really don't have anything against Shields per se, I just dislike it when a new powerset is so souped-up it completely outclasses all previous powersets.
Fortunately, Shield Defense also won't be gimped if the probably very small portion of the player base leveraging massive recharge and Hamios to get 95% defense debuff resistance have to settle for merely high defense debuff resistance. I'm not sure there's enough talk to say we have a consensus, but probably many would agree that 95% DDR in Shield Defense is too much considering everything else it can do.
If you do want to nerf the DDR of Shield Defense, I agree with Stargazer - just make the DDR in Active Defense unenhanceable, as appears to have been intended by the devs. Don't make strange changes to Hamios. What sense does that make?
As for other "misuses" of Hamios, I don't think changes are warranted. Hamios have long since lost the enhancement wars to IOs. They only have a few niche applications now, and many or most of those niche applications were probably never intended by the devs. So? It's not even close to game breaking. It's been that way forever. Devs, let it slide.
Back on the original topic, I'm not happy. Granted, I don't read dev stuff, but I've had no reason to suspect that the Numina (and related IOs), we not functioning as intended. Apparently it should have been obviously a bug to me? Well, it wasn't. It was unusual, but everything in that category seemed to behave that way, and it wasn't nonsensical behavior. It's also been that way for years. I very intentionally build taking advantage of that effect. The endurance use on my hyper-expensive Katana/Dark is carefully tuned, and still just under what it should be. I still have to slow down slightly occasionally in long fights. I don't have the Numina in Physical Perfection (it's in a full set in Health), but I do have the Miracle. I assume that's next. And although we're only talking about a difference of 0.17 EPS, that spells doom for Scrapper challenge play, so it'd be time for an overhaul or retirement. I HATE overhauls. I also hate retiring a character after only having them up and running at full strength for a single issue. No, I'm not quitting over this. I realize that it's a basically trivial change that just happens to impact me significantly. But it definitely goes in the "I'm getting tired of CoH; maybe it's time to move on" column of my life. -
Quote:OK, good. Sold. Probably my memory is skewed by peeling aggro off of an experienced taunting Tank with a fire Blaster. But the Tank was Willpower, there were actually TWO fire Blasters, and we were hunting +4s and +5s. There won't be any +4s and +5s with a mere Scrapper/Blaster pairing.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If my DB/WP could keep agro off a fire blaster, you should have no problem with a Shield Defense scrapper.
Sorry for getting so very far afield of the topic, StormDevil. Particularly when I already "owe" you an attack chain analysis. -
Well, ClawsandEffect has a pretty cheap, or at least moderately priced build. Probably has most of the performance of mine. Anyway, ran one circuit. No problems. Didn't need my heal or any inspirations. I think regular Cimerorans are fine. It's just +4x8 that's suicide.