Werner
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Posts
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Joined
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Made some more changes, some of them expensive. But now in comparison to Murdok's original build:
10% more global recharge
I suspect there's still room to grow. There are a lot of options still.
~3.5 seconds faster recharge on Elude
~5% higher defense while Elude is up (~1% lower when down. Yes, I know adding defense is silly, and recharge would be better, but insane defense is the point of the build. Might as well go for it.)
~20% higher smashing/lethal resistance
~3% higher resistance to everything else
49% more regeneration + Panacea proc
50 more hit points
Water Spout now slotted as an attack (or could swap for Spirit Shark for another 15 hit points)
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Yeah, 71% didn't strike me as insane enough. I have 75% melee/lethal defense on my Katana/Dark, after all, which applies to a whole lot of incoming damage. 85% and above, now THAT sounds insane enough, and might be worth a couple more seconds of risk every few minutes. And even if it isn't on paper, it's the point of the build, so you might as well go for it. I'm sure you get very, very good at managing those few nasty seconds with practice. Heck, just pop some inspirations if you need to.
I admit that I didn't think about the 30% defense being not very useful in the cases where this build shines. That makes the crash a little uglier than I thought.
Yeah, I don't know what happens if you hit Hibernate right before the crash. I assume that, since it's a toggle, it crashes. But you also need endurance to hit it. So... Elude crash, blue, Hibernate? Not sure how it works. I bet Murdok knows.
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Quote:Well, we can get a little more if we go insane. Drop Tough to put Spirit Shark back in. Unslot Focused Senses (make do with a L53 Enzyme) and slot Stupefy in Boxing. That's 2.5% more global recharge. Put all recharges in Elude. Now we're recharging in under 205 seconds. I wouldn't do that, of course.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This probably is as good as Elude gets
If I were playing a build like this, I'd probably be running Herostats to have the best chance at proper timing. But yeah, I'd think there'd be a few dicey seconds no matter how good I got. Still, when Hibernate drops, you're still sitting on around 30% defense, and you should be back to full health, and you've got at least a tiny bit of resistance. It'd be hard to put you down in a few seconds, I think. Elude, Aid Self, should be good to go again.
At least the down time is less than the 40 seconds per cycle I was imagining. Not that 30 seconds or so is that much better. I'm pretty sure it would drive me insane. Still, interesting. I never really thought that much recharge was possible on a playable build. I don't think it's better than a well-designed soft cap build, but it still warms my heart just knowing this build exists. -
Definitely interesting.
Here's another 8.75% global recharge (now 235%) plus slotted Tough and a few more hit points to help with when the bad guys get lucky. It knocked about 4 seconds off of Elude's recharge, so now it's a couple seconds under the duration of Hibernate. I think Hasten can't stack with itself, which is why I gutted it.
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Quote:Only part of Instant Healing's regeneration is enhanceable. It's broken into 600% uneanhanceable and 200% enhanceable. Let's say you have 3 heals in Fast Healing, Integration and Health. Now you trigger an unenhanced (for healing) Instant Healing. Your regeneration rate is 1369%. If you put three heals in Instant Healing, it's 1559%. That's a 14% increase to your survivability. But on an SO build, it's probably only up 1/3 of the time. So call it a 5% increase to your survivability.Originally Posted by The Demacian
Werner specifically advises against slotting Heal for Instant Healing. It seems like turning a very large number into a proportionally bigger number would result in a lovely time spent regenerating faster than anyone could keep up with, even if they have you mezzed.
Now let's look at Health, which has the lowest regeneration rate. You'll get the base slot, but so that we're comparing three slots to three slots, let's not fill it in. You have 531% regeneration. Slot up Health, and you have 569%. That's a 7% increase in survivability.
Now, that's oversimplified, but let's say that slotting Health and slotting Instant Healing have similar effects on your survivability. I'd rather have Health, because I prefer a higher baseline level of survivability to survivability that's only available 1/3 of the time. Your mileage may vary, in which case you could consider slotting heals in Instant Healing before or instead of Health. But both are a lowish priority. Integration is first, Fast Healing is second, at least as far as direct regeneration goes.
You're not going to be mezzed. OK, very very rarely, you'll get confused or afraid, and Tactics would have helped, but it's very rare. That said, I love Tactics, and have it on nearly every toon, but I'm in it primarily for the to hit buff and because it takes a Gaussian set, not for the mez resistance.Quote:Originally Posted by The Demacian
No love for Tactics? It gives me access to mez resists that I don't already have from elsewhere. I for one hate being mezzed, but that is more of a sentiment than a hard-math-backup for why I went with Man/Tac instead of Man/Jump. -
My standard Regen boilerplate:
“There are definitely other approaches, but here's what I'd consider a basic plan for the Regeneration secondary using SOs or common IOs:
From Broad Sword, your attack chain is Head Splitter -> Parry -> Disembowel -> Hack -> Parry. Parry is a key power from a very low level and needs six slots. Any attack you actually use routinely should have six slots, really. And if you don't use it routinely, I don't suggest keeping it.
- Fast Healing at 1, 3 heals
- Reconstruction nice and early, 3 heals, 3 recharges
- Dull Pain when or shortly after when available, as there is a lot to squeeze in at that level, 3 heals, 3 recharges
- Integration at 16, 3 heals, possibly 1 endurance reducer
- Resilience when and if you can work it in, 1 resist
- Instant Healing when or shortly after when available, 1-3 recharges, no heals unless you're swimming in slots
- Skip Revive
- Moment of Glory when or shortly after when available, 3 recharges
- Hasten when convenient, 3 recharges
- Tough when convenient, 3 resists, 1 endurance reducer
- Slot Health when convenient, 3 heals
- Quick Recovery when the default slot in Stamina isn't enough. 1 endurance modifier at first, add 1 or 2 more as necessary
- Slot Stamina only after slotting Quick Recovery. 1 endurance modifier at first, add 1 or 2 more as necessary
If it were me, I'd also try to get some basic defense, but it will use up even more power and pool choices. Combat Jumping or Hover, but don't worry about slotting for defense. Weave with 3 defense. Maneuvers with 3 defense. The Steadfast Protection unique in Resilience or Tough. With even-level SOs, that will give you 14.3% defense to all. Not great, but not bad."
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with Broad Sword/Regen. It and Katana/Regen are excellent combinations for adding a lot of survivability to Regen. -
Yeah, I was trying to think of what to do with uber recharge, and it has me thinking Dual Blades. Blinding Feint -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike is gapless at +355% recharge, and would be pretty entertaining.
But how is it "like 12-15 seconds or so after the end of the crash". Even at +360% recharge or so in Elude, that's still 217 seconds for the recharge, and it lasts 180. Even at the recharge cap you'd have 20 seconds of gap, not "only down for a few seconds". What am I missing? Oh, is it that "after the crash" means "after the period where you are unable to recover endurance"? So is it closer to 40 seconds of down time after 180 seconds of Elude? If so, count me out. I'm not a fan of thumb twiddling. I go crazy enough with Rage crashes on Super Strength. -
Quote:64% so 59% to soft cap, though you'd probably want 61% or so since the swords debuff. 64% is also the to-hit of Devouring Earth in tip missions, but they aren't in Apex. So yeah, even though it's only a single enemy, somehow some of us ended up calling it the Apex soft cap.Originally Posted by Ribic
Not to derail the conversation, but I've seen this term used a few times and I can't find a definition for it... so, by Apex soft cap are you referring to Battle Maiden's elevated to hit only? If so, what is her to-hit? I had thought it was 65%, which would make "apex soft cap" 60%, correct?
Would there be any advantage to doing this beyond preparing for the BM fight in the Apex TF? Def debuffs aside.
No, I don't see any advantage to it other than those two enemies, and to be better against other enemies with to hit buffs. I wouldn't do it. -
You know, I'm just going to apologize for ragging on you, Murdok. I shouldn't be doing it in the first place, particularly after you said, "I'm not hating on soft-cap builds" and "math guys don't freak out."
But also, I started thinking about what sort of build you'd need to have to pull off the level of recharge you're talking about. Throw out the standard way of doing Super Reflexes, and just do what it takes. I didn't do it in Mids', but I can see it in my mind. And you know what? Looks like fun. Not strictly better than a soft cap build, and I'd probably argue slightly worse due to the crash and time out of Elude (both of which you mentioned). BUT I'm a big fan of being different where different is at least viable, which your build is, and I'm also a big fan of the extreme, which your build is. I'm sure the mood will pass, but at the moment, I want one, just to play with, just to see.
So I'm sending a PM for your "perma Elude" build. I'm curious to see if it looks like I think it looks based on your comments, and then curious to see what else you've done to push the strengths and make up for the weaknesses. -
Quote:Except that that doesn't have anything to do with having a soft cap vs. "perma Elude" build. It's trivial to soft cap Super Reflexes, leaving plenty of room for immense recharge if that's what you're after. And when you're retoggling and/or hibernating since Elude isn't up, you're not doing damage, so "perma Elude" doesn't sound all that smashy-smashy to me, and definitely not tanky-tanky either, even if it's survivy-survivy.Originally Posted by Doomguide
Sounds like you enjoy the immense recharge the near perma Elude build requires and has, which results in some serious damage output compared to your soft cap build. More smashy smash basically.
Where it might get into trade offs is if you're trying to Apex soft cap, or tip mission Devouring Earth soft cap, or pet soft cap, or tower-buffed Lord Recluse soft cap. Easy with Elude, not as easy with powers and set bonuses, and the higher you try to go, the worse the trade offs for the rest of the build would get. I might be able to pet soft cap a Katana/Super Reflexes, but it's not going to be at +226% global recharge before Spiritual. But I didn't get the impression that high to hit enemies was what we were talking about.
And I'm with Arcanaville. No deaths on task forces in years means you're either always on great teams (in which case I'm not attributing your success to your build) or have only run a few task forces over the past few years and got lucky. Or maybe there's a way if you pile on enough temp powers (I just never use any), but again, if so, I'm not attributing your success to your build choices.
(Edit: Not to say that the build doesn't sound interesting, because it does. I'm not sure what amuses me about extremist builds, but they do amuse me. And +258.5% (?) total global recharge with Spiritual is pretty extreme.) -
Quote:Elude isn't a taunt aura, and you said you had no problem surviving on your soft cap build, so can you explain what you mean by this? (Edit: If by better at tanking you mean your taunts recharge really fast, you could take them and have them recharge really fast on a soft cap build as well.)Originally Posted by Murdok
the perma-eluder is better at tanking
Mmmmhmmm. Well, Arcanaville mentioned one reason that could be the case, so it's possible that your impression is correct, even if it doesn't mean what I think you think it means. (Edit: Well, you allowed for debuffs in your defense. I'm sure you're still sometimes debuffed below 45%, and so are many other soft capped builds, so that could be part of it. And of course enemies with high to hit would hit your soft cap build more often, so if you fight a lot of those you'd notice the difference.)Quote:Originally Posted by Murdok
I seem to get hit more on the soft-cap version than I do on the perma-eluder. -
I'm late to the party, but yes, Spiritual. You can use your better attacks and Soul Drain more frequently to do more damage. You can use Dark Consumption more often to take care of any endurance problems. You can spam Siphon Life faster if you're in trouble, plus it will heal for more hit points. And yes, this applies even to an SO build, and perhaps particularly to an SO build.
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Quote:Not really true. Shield Defense is a high defense secondary, which makes the hits less frequent. I often duo with a soft-capped Invuln Tanker, and he has almost no problem using Aid Self. Some of that, he says, is experience at knowing the timing of enemy attacks, and knowing when the lull will be. It is, of course, harder if you're below the soft cap and surrounded by the aggro cap of enemies. And sometimes it's impossible, like when you're standing in a pool of caltrops. But with a little practice, it can be pretty useful.Originally Posted by Fritzdog
I wouldn't bother with aid self, in any situation where it would be useful, you wouldn't be able to use it.
But useful doesn't make it necessary. It's only necessary if you go out of your way to make it necessary. I'd pick it up if I were doing no temp no inspiration Stupid Scrapper Tricks, but otherwise I think greens are better most of the time. I only took Aid Self on a single Scrapper, and wasn't really a fan of it, even if I have to admit that it was useful.
I too keep only three or four greens in my tray on my Fire/Shield (fairly close), and most of the time, they do gather dust. But they're nice for when things go really, really wrong. -
Quote:I haven't really done much to be sure, but yes, I would guess that Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash is the best DPS chain for Brutes.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
But, to be clear, for a brute (who doesn't get the same benefit from Musculature as a Scrap), you think FU-Focus-Slash remains the top dps chain? I am bummed I can't break 200dps (195 was my best run so far).
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Eh, needs more smash.
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Quote:Looks right to me. Not sure why you wouldn't get the triple stack, then. Guess I'm doing something wrong in my calculation.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Global Recharge at 192.5% (with Hasten).
Follow-up recharge at 123.41% (97.53% slotted, plus Spiritual Total Core alpha slot -- 45% increase to recharge, half ignoring ED)
During pylon run had extra 10% global from Time Lord
So that's 315.91% w/o Time Lord and 325.91% with, right? -
Quote:Is your brute running +306.25% recharge in Follow Up? That's what I was using when I said that Slash should get a triple stack.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Is "the Slash chain" FU->Focus->Slash?
Or are you saying "the Slash chain" is one with Slash & Evis?
I'm asking because in my brute's tests of FU-Focus-Slash, you only get the 3rd FU on Focus -- it doesn't last through slash afaik.
It is striking me that the Brute fury nerf really hit harder than folks think if now Brutes are lagging 20-25dps behind scraps (similar builds)? Plus scraps are burstier due to crits. Hmnnn.
Last night, running a relatively seamless FU-Focus-Slash chain, I only pulled about 195dps on my brute. That's with explosive strike and armageddon procs in Focus, heca's inc proc in FU, and the -RES in Slash. Started fight at close to 75% fury, used Aid Self once, and had about a 3-cycle downtime after hasten wore off (filled with shockwave).
"The Slash chain" is Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash.
The calculation here is on a hypothetical Super Reflexes DPS build that sacrifices almost everything else in the pursuit of fairly short term DPS. Real world builds with real world concerns like staying alive and not running out of endurance when fighting a pylon will probably see lower numbers. -
First, I can't open builds through links right now due to some bug, so I apologize if I'm off base here.
Different attacks do different amounts of damage per second. The difference can be drastic (e.g., Head Splitter does 70% higher DPS than Slash). That means that for maximum DPS, you want to keep firing your top DPS attacks, over and over. You don't want to even use the lesser attacks. And to fire those top DPS attacks over and over, you need recharge, and often lots of it. Damage set bonuses and Musculature are an obvious route to more damage, but often the wrong route. Recharge is typically more important.
So chances are that there are people out there doing significantly more damage than this build, and given your comments about the soft cap and Tough and Weave, with significantly better survivability.
Being able to complete Apex etc. without dying doesn't mean your build is any good. In this case, it sounds like it means you're on a good team and you know how to work together. That typically DOES trump individual build skill, so grats. A good team with single origin enhancements will probably walk all over a bad team with 10 billion influence uber builds. But it doesn't mean that the SO builds are better. -
Quote:Incorrect.Originally Posted by beowulf2010
Correct. The "redraw" animation has been moved inside the animation time window of powers and so do not effect damage output at all. This being said, I hate it with a passion and do my best to avoid any situation where I have to redraw a weapon as even though I know it has no effect on my DPS, it still feels like I'm slowing down my attack rate.
That's how it used to be YEARS ago, and yes, the redraw myth was debunked years ago. Then, also years ago, the devs buffed the weapon sets by removing the redraw animation time from the attacks. That was much better aesthetically, with the attacks flowing into each other without standing there for the redraw pause without redraw animation. And of course it buffed DPS significantly. It also means that NOW, in the modern game, there IS a redraw penalty. Your impression is correct. Redraw is slowing down your attack rate. Reraw is pretty fast for Claws though, as I recall, so it's not TOO bad. -
Quote:My guess is that it'll be behind since it starts out at a 7% base DPS penalty, which seems like it would be rather hard for -resist and purple procs to make up for. Maybe I can look at it in more detail later. This particular DPS comparison is using a template build that I'd need to adjust for each attack chain, and then I have to check the proc chances for each attack, so it's a bit involved.Originally Posted by BrandX
How would FU - Slash - Evis - Repeat be?
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Quote:Note the conditions of the comparison - Eviscerate with Musculature vs. Slash with Spiritual. Since I compared Eviscerate at +274% to Slash at +296%, that means the Eviscerate chain would actually be HARDER to get the recharge for, not easier.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Wait wait wait ....
Are you saying (Werner and others) that
FU-Evis-Slash
is going to do better DPS than
FU-Focus-Slash
at less recharge?
And this requires the Glad Armor -RES in Evis and what n slash (maintain the -RES achilles)?
Or that the chain should be FU-Evis-Focus?
This is news to me. I just busted my chops to get enough recharge to run FU-Focus-Slash on my brute (see Pylon thread near the last posts).
Let's see, what should I put the Slash chain at for a "fair" comparison... 274% + 32.25% = 306.25%. That brings the Slash chain for this particular build up to 221 DPS. Oh, even better because it gets another Follow Up on Slash itself. Now we're at 229 DPS.
Calculating the other chain instead of just guessing, tier 4 Musculature adds +32.25% base damage. Plugging that in, I get 235 DPS. So better, but only by a small margin, and I suspect that Spiritual is more generally useful to most builds.
And as Rad Avenger says, archetype matters. Not only do we not get criticals on Brutes, but there's a much higher percentage of damage coming from buff instead of base damage, which means that Musculature is less useful. So chances seem good that the Slash chain is better on the Brute, though that's not a calculation, just a guess. Still, even calculations are only just good guesses, in that they depend on build assumptions that won't likely match anyone's specific build.
(Edit: Oh, and it's Follow Up -> Eviscerate -> Focus.) -
Quote:I'm having trouble with Mids' and I'm not able to use the data links, and the import from a whole build cut and paste doesn't usually work very well. However, my notes say you need this recharge in each attack to be gapless:Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
In a similar note, perhaps someone can double check if I got the numbers right for the gapless chain (my Arcanatime calculations say I did, but you know...):
3.564 Smite (+69%)
You'd want to have a little better than that for safety since we know our way of calculating required recharge isn't technically correct. On the other hand, an extra 0.05 seconds in your chain isn't likely to kill you if the build is really, really tight on recharge, and it could always be in error the other direction, and you're just wasting effort trying to tighten it up any further.
3.300 Fire Blast (+82%)
2.640 Siphon Life (+279%) -
Quote:Yes, Golgis are combinable. I haven't seen 53 Hamios is a long time, but I DO see 51s and 52s, so I buy those, and then combine with 50s until they're the equivalent of 53s. You can't email them when you do that, but you can put them in base storage, so it's only cross server transfers that are an issue (at least for me - I have safe base storage). I mention this because I got bitten by it.Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
Also note that Siphon Life's healing is slightly better than shown if using a level 53 Golgi (or, failing that, a 50++, are they still combinable?), and the same for S/L resistance using a >50 Ribosome (getting that last 0.01% resist!).
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I calculated the Eviscerate Chain being within 2 DPS of the Slash chain using my DPS template build (215 vs. 217), and that was with +296% recharge into Follow Up. If you can get Musculature in the Eviscerate chain, my guess is that it's the winner. Higher recharge may, of course, be useful for other things.
The attack only needs to be initiated during the buff. However, as I recall, the Follow Up buff takes effect 0.5 second after you initiate the attack, which is to say before the Follow Up power itself completes. That's one "problem" with the Slash chain, as it puts Slash just 0.06 seconds away from having 3 Follow Ups buffing it, assuming I did the math right way back when, and that I'm reading it correctly now.
As I recall, the Gaussian in Follow Up is approximately equal to a regular damage proc. I'd rather slot a Gaussian set somewhere and just use a damage proc. But my memory isn't that great. -
Quote:So outside of VERY specific build goals, like soloing large numbers of AVs at the same time, stick with the traditional chain.Originally Posted by Nihilii
These chains do lower DPS, but have the advantage of bringing SL up more often, for more healing.