Werner

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I think I'll be very interested in seeing what it and the gladiator will do for FU, Slash, Eviscerate.

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Not much. Here's what I have so far.

Claws:
227 DPS Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash
217 DPS Follow Up -> Slash -> Focus -> Slash
201 DPS Follow Up -> Slash -> Eviscerate

Dual Blades:
241 DPS Blinding Feint -> Ablating Strike -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike
226 DPS Blinding Feint -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike

Spreadsheet

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Werner, my first question would be "Why should I trust Mids' average damage calculation?"

Do you get the same values if you figure out the actual damage longhand?

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I should rename that column. I'm just listing Mids' average damage and doing some of those calculations as a sort of baseline. If you look down in the section with the actual build, you'll see that I'm doing it all longhand. Sorry for any confusion.

Looks like I've been inspired to at least start a DPS project of my own. Here's an example of what I'm planning, with the build template and spreadsheet template that I plan to use. The build template has +202.5% global recharge for those hard-to-reach chains, but isn't likely to give anyone sustainable endurance as I'll be slotting. If I can last one minute before burning out, I'm happy.

Here's the spreadsheet I'll be using with the first build inside. It's a Claws build with 227 DPS.

If anyone happens to notice any calculation errors, please let me know.

If I ever actually finish this, as opposed to just starting it, I'll be sure to post the results.

Single quick reply to more than one person to save time.

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Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.

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I dug up an old perma Hasten soft-capped Claws/SR DPS build, and it looks like I calculated 225 DPS running the Follow Up -> Slash -> Focus -> Slash chain. Purple procs in Slash and Focus. Achilles' Heel in Slash. Regular damage procs in Follow Up and Focus. Gaussian set in Tactics with the chance of build up. 10% chance of criticals since DPS is all but meaningless against minions. 95% chance to hit. Arcanatime. 31% damage bonus. Assault.

Now, I realize I'm going beyond what you were including in the numbers we're comparing to. But I am saying that Claws isn't stuck in the mid 100s.

Anyway, my plan is to compare sets using actual DPS builds like this, with as standard a build template as possible. On the other hand, few of my plans ever come to fruition.

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As a math question: are the formulas for proc's used in attack chains a lot like interest (compounded in Werner's and simple in Umbral's)?

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Afaik, unless Werner is using the -res proc formula that we worked out a long time ago, we're using the same formula. Every other proc is simply a flat increase to average damage for a power.

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I'm using the full formula that takes into account that the proc doesn't stack with itself. And when I calculate DPS, I do it the hard way, getting a separate -resist probability for each attack.

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One thing that this thread overall points out that I don't like is that +Recharge plays *way* too much role in DPS. This makes Hasten a must have power.

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Must have? Hardly. I don't even have Hasten on my Regen. While I love the topic of DPS, I also think that DPS tends to be overrated. You don't need these kinds of numbers to take out AVs and other hard targets, and AoE and burst damage are more useful in teaming situations. Most people shouldn't play the kind of specialized builds that pull off these numbers.

(edit: Both of my main scrappers do in the neighborhood of 175 DPS, and I'm perfectly happy with that.)

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I can't tell you how many times I hit MoG against a psi0using mob when I should have hit Dull Pain or even Recon.

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Done that. Got to see Mother Mayhem's boots up close. They're awfully purple.

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This title sure looks familier...

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Yup same poster too...

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Might not have been satisfied with the “melted butter” answer that killed the thread, but I already got my comments in, so I'm good.

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Boo

Claws still second to last...
Well atleast it's not MA...

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I'm pretty sure we can fix that with more recharge and procs.

Yeah. Y'all crunched numbers, and I skimmed it. I haven't cared much about the comparison in the past because I prefer blue side and don't PvP. But when Brutes come blue side, I'm going to care, and so should the devs.

Not to take anything away from my favorite secondary, Regeneration. But I agree that Spines/Willpower is the better choice here.

I only have one Brute at 50, and while I know anecdote isn't evidence, I had the same impression as you. It felt like I had more damage and was more survivable than my scrappers.

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I would think that since scrappers are pretty much universally less survivable than brutes, then they should pretty much universally deal more damage, and that sure doesn't seem to be the case.

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I'll agree with your conclusion based on what I've heard so far (haven't done any math myself). However, sustained single target DPS at +250% recharge and without procs isn't representative of the game as a whole. These DPS numbers aren't anything the devs should be balancing around.

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Can someone show me how to figure out average DPS gain from the DR debuff procs? My brain has slipped back into lazy mode.

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For an approximation, you need to know the number of chances to proc in the chain and the duration of the chain.

% increase in DPS = 20% * (100% - 80% ^ (chances to proc * 10.3 / duration of chain))

So for example, let's say a chain has 2 chances to proc and takes 5.15 seconds.

% increase in DPS
= 20% * (100% - 80% ^ (2 * 10.3 / 5.15))
= 20% * (100% - 80% ^ (2 * 2)
= 20% * (100% - 80% ^ 4)
= 20% * (100% - 40.96%)
= 20% * 59.04%
= 11.808% increase in DPS

The more accurate way is for every attack in the chain, figure out how many chances there were to proc in the previous 10.3 seconds, then do the calculation specifically for that and every other attack in the chain.

(edit: If your chain can take both -resistance procs, calculate the % DPS buff separately for each because they stack.)

I'm thinking I should dust off my old soft-capped Super Reflexes DPS template build, bring it up to I14, and then plug in some of these chains with real world slotting including procs. I'm betting I'll see some similarities, but also some significant differences.

One of many projects I'll probably abandon before it gets very far. I can't seem to stop playing the game long enough to get some serious spreadsheeting in. *sigh*

Absolutely nothing wrong with Katana/Super Reflexes. It was one of the early no temps no inspirations AV soloing combos. Divine Avalanche fills in the defense gap while you're leveling up, turning a late-blooming secondary into an early-blooming one. It may also be one of the best combinations for custom Architect Entertainment enemies, with Super Reflexes handling the defense debuffs, and Divine Avalanche handling the to hit buffs.

Granted, when I started over on a new server, I started out with arbitrage. For my first half a million or so. Then I bought, crafted and sold a medium profit L50 recipe. Then three of them, then a tray full of them, then a storage rack full of them. So yeah, a brief stint at arbitrage is a good way to bootstrap, but not a good way to make billions.

I'm SO leaving the forum forever, you... you MEANIES! (I mean seriously, correcting me when I'm wrong so that I'll know better next time? What's up with THAT??? )

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You shouldn't put the Steadfast Protection in Earth's Embrace. It only lasts 120 seconds, which is to say it won't be very reliable. Stick it it something like Stone Skin that you'll have running all the time, and that will benefit from the resistance. I went ahead and made that swap before calculating. I also gave you High Pain Threshold.

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Untrue, good sir! The steadfast +3% Def IO functions as a set bonus, not a proc. (It has no 120s duration and shows up in your set bonuses window.) As such, it's always on, whether the power is on of off.

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Oh.

Still, might as well get some use out of the resistance portion of it.

You shouldn't put the Steadfast Protection in Earth's Embrace. It only lasts 120 seconds, which is to say it won't be very reliable. Stick it it something like Stone Skin that you'll have running all the time, and that will benefit from the resistance. I went ahead and made that swap before calculating. I also gave you High Pain Threshold.

Looks like 1557 this time around. It's amazing what hitting the soft cap to the most common types of damage will do for you.

The two highest chains for Dual Blades are:

Blinding Feint -> Ablating Strike -> Gap -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike -> Gap
Blinding Feint -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike -> Gap

For Claws, I think they are:

Follow Up -> Gap -> Slash -> Focus -> Slash
Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash -> Gap

The Dual Blades chains are very comparable in top tier builds appropriately slotted including the resistance proc in Ablating Strike. If you can fit both resistance procs in Ablating Strike now the double AS chain probably pulls significantly ahead of the other.

I haven't really checked the Claws chains. I don't know for sure that those are the highest, and I'm not sure which order they come in, but those are the two I recommend checking. I suspect that putting both -resist procs in Slash and using the double Slash chain would be best.

These chains have gaps. Just like the Broad Sword chain with two Hacks, they can or probably can outdo other chains despite the gaps. Another advantage is that speed boosts will actually improve your DPS significantly.

These chains count significantly on the -resist proc in Ablating Strike or Slash. They're not really the same chains without it.

The intent with the shorter chains is to triple stack Blinding Feint or Follow Up on the big attack.

(edit: Wait... I don't even know what can slot the Gladiator proc...)

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I'm pretty sure that the damage procs are going to contribute more than 2.15 dps.

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Yeah, the -resists are the biggest, but purple damage procs aren't bad either. Probably about 13 DPS in his build and chain.

Although I have Assault on Werner, the damage contribution for the endurance is fairly poor if I remember correctly. Still, I do love the Leadership pool, and this is coming from someone who rarely teams. For teaming scrappers? Do eeet!

On the original subject, I took both on my Invuln, so I'm no help. They're both good. I hate Aid Self, though, so if it came down to it, I'd drop that first.

Yeah, to be fair, I've heard nothing but praise for it for regular play.

Thanks. I wanted to say something like this, but I was too lazy (and late for work) to do the math and write a big post. I had looked into Touch of Fear for my AV soloing, but ultimately decided against it.

Watching an AV cower would be awesome, though.

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74.60 DPA Head Splitter (187.1 damage in 2.508 seconds)
71.28 DPA Hack (112.9 damage in 1.584 seconds)

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Ah, I see. Server ticks take a much larger bite out of Hack than they do from Headsplitter. That's something I didn't account for in the preliminary analysis I used to plan my attack chain; I was just taking the ratio straight from RedTomax.

Still, doubling up Hack gets a fair bit more from AH and Hecatomb procs, so I stand by the 2-Hack chain.

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Oh, I'll agree with you there. The two Hack chain with as small a gap as possible is probably the best achievable DPS chain in practice because of the additional mileage from the procs.

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You can manage to red zone both healing and damage with frankenslotting, but more people nowadays are more interested in the extra 3.75% defense from the 6 piece damage set bonuses than they are from eking an extra 21 hp/sec from Siphon Life.

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They are? Seems to me that there aren't many situations where an extra 3.75% defense to one position is going to do more for you than healing an extra 21 hit points per second.

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Well let's calculate it up a bit. 3.75% +def(melee) is equal to 7.5% reduction in incoming melee damage. To make the 2 quantities equal, there needs to be 280 dps coming at you. That's a reasonably small quantity, considering. Just a little something to think about.

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Let's take your current build, which gets a Wernerscore of 943. If we add 3.75% melee defense, your score goes up to 1010. If we add 21 hit points per second instead, it goes up to 1044.

Although a reasonable first approximation, it isn't entirely realistic to assume that all incoming damage is melee, and that the character has no other resistance or defense. Resistance and defense act as a multiplier on the added regeneration, and damage other than melee limits the effect of the melee defense.