Werner
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Posts
3682 -
Joined
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Quote:OK, then. And I definitely think you have the more typical scrapper viewpoint.Originally Posted by Umbral
I was applying that to me, specifically, as opposed to Scrappers in general. It's probably a popular sentiment that most Scrappers agree with, but I don't think there isn't a place for survivability focused Scrappers. Their place just isn't with me. I'd much rather get just enough survivability to survive, just enough endurance to be sustainable, and then put everything else into dishing out the damage.
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Quote:Divine Avalanche -> Gambler's Cut -> Sting of the Wasp -> Gambler's Cut for a boring little 146 DPS if I'm calculating it right. Well, plus 16 DPS from Death Shroud for 162 DPS, but I won't want that on while soloing AVs, because I want to keep my Dark Regeneration fuel alive. It's not really how I'd build an AV soloer; it's just capable of it.Originally Posted by BlazingBlue
Werner, what's your attack chain?
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Quote:Survivability Scrappers and DPS Tanks can easily intrude on each other's realms. My own preference actually lies about halfway between the two archetypes. I have much more experience adding survivability to scrappers, so that's how I build the toons I like to play. But I'm also leveling up what I may eventually turn into an IO'd out DPS tank. I think it is overly simplistic to say that "As a Scrapper, my first priority should be the ability to beat face in." There are a wide range of player preferences, and I think both survivability Scrappers and DPS Tanks are something that players can reasonably prefer to play over the more common roles of the two archetypes.Originally Posted by Umbral
As a Scrapper, my first priority should be the ability to beat face in. If I'm going to sacrifice the ability to beat face in for the ability to withstand getting my own face beat in, I might as well just roll a Tanker and be done with it. DM/WP on a Tanker is actually quite powerful, thanks to the higher base HP. It's still going to be lower damage than the Scrapper, but if you're more interested in wrangling survivability than damage capability, what's the point?
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I agree. Don't even consider the two top DPS chains unless you're Super Reflexes and very rich, and even then, weigh them carefully. Using my DPS comparison template build, the Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals chain still pulls off 214 DPS, and that's without any specific optimizations for that chain (the template has WAY more recharge than needed for it). I don't think that's far enough off the 238 DPS of the top chain to sacrifice your entire build for it.
Unless I was specifically making a DPS Super Reflexes build, I would definitely use the Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals chain. -
Shouldn't be a problem if I'm reading the numbers right. An AV regenerates about 94 DPS. On their own, the Stalker Claws attacks appear to do between 50.08 and 64.39 DPS. Slot those up with SOs and you're doing enough to very very slowly solo an AV. Add in Build Up, procs, sets with damage enhancement and so on, and it shouldn't be a problem. Slow perhaps, but good enough.
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Dark Armor comes with a small amount of defense vs. all, so you can kind of choose whether you want to go with positional or typed. I would probably go positional, but I'd evaluate builds of both types before making a decision.
When fighting AVs on a Dark Armor, you'd likely leave the damage aura off to avoid killing Dark Regeneration fodder. That means you'd likely leave your fear or stun aura on.
I'm honestly not sure how DM/DA would do against AVs.
Getting it endurance neutral might not be that bad. You have access to Stamina, Dark Consumption, Conserver Power and Physical Perfection. It's hard to burn all that endurance. -
I can't say for sure without checking endurance consumption, but chances are that I'd skip Focused Accuracy.
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Charged Brawl contributes 52% more DPS than Boxing. You asked if there was a good reason that you should stick with Charged Brawl. To me, that's a good reason. Now, if you don't care about DPS and just want to save a power, that's cool, play whatever sounds like fun to you.
As for Kick, that's 55.2 damage in 1.98 seconds, or 27.88 DPS. So Charged Brawl contributes 96% more DPS than Kick, plus Kick takes even more time away from your better attacks, so it will hurt your DPS even more than that would indicate. Really bad choice. If you're just trying to save a power and actually use this attack, please at least use Boxing instead of Kick. -
I remember the good old days when Werner cost me only about 600 million to completely IO out. Now I'm looking at probably 6 billion for Alexei. On the other hand, I earn influence about 10 times faster than I used to, so it all works out.
Wait, what's a budget build again?
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I think it's skippable. It's a great power, but you won't be gimping yourself if you skip it. Without looking at anything specific, Weave is likely better than Build Up on a defense build, and Hasten is likely better than Build Up on a build that needs a lot of recharge. I'd try to find a way to fit everything in, but that doesn't always work out.
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Oh! And that's completely neglecting the bonus from Blinding Feint itself. So once that hits, you'll be capped at 95% against +4s. You don't need Tactics or Focused Accuracy even for that.
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Which isn't to say that Build Up isn't a great power. DPS is improved, but a possibly bigger benefit is burst damage. And let's not forget the 20% to hit when you're dealing with to hit debuffs or defense. I've never skipped it yet.
Umbral explaining why he didn't take Build Up in a specific build is probably not the same as him recommending that people skip Build Up in general. Note also his comment, "I don't really bother using it all that often." I click mine almost every time that it's ready unless I'm saving it for my alpha strike in the next spawn, so I'm getting more benefit. -
Well, let's see. For the sake of argument, I'll look at a Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals build with Crushing Impacts in Blinding Feint and Vengeful Slice, Scirocco's in Sweeping Strike, and Kinetic Combat plus an Accuracy IO in Ablating Strike. Stick a Kismet unique in Indomitable Will. Your chance to hit +3s will be capped at 95%, and your chance to hit +4s will be between 85% and 88% depending on the attack. That's probably good enough for almost anything.
I personally target 95% or higher to hit +4s. If you really want that extra oomph, it could be easily accomplished by adding Tactics, Focused Accuracy, or another 20-30% global accuracy (too lazy to calculate exact number for a hypothetical).
So yeah, you should be fine. -
You can solo most AVs with some decent accuracy enhancement. Most of them don't have any defense, and they're your level, so they're easy to hit. I like a lot of to hit and accuracy, but that's for fighting uplevel, not for AVs.
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Quote:Heh, OK. The basic gist is combining soft-capped defenses with good resists, decent hit points, and a fairly rapid fire full heal. DPS isn't so great at 146 (162 with Death Shroud on), but I managed to fit in an AoE (The Lotus Drops) for once, and it has a travel power.Originally Posted by dume
Quick note - ty for the build Werner, but I can't view those thx to my mac
Would you be so kind to post full forms?
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Alexei: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Gambler's Cut- (A) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (3) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (3) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (5) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (5) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative): Level 50
- (7) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff: Level 20
- (A) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
- (7) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge: Level 50
- (9) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (9) Aegis - Resistance: Level 50
- (11) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance: Level 50
- (11) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All): Level 50
- (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
- (13) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (13) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (15) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (15) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (17) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal): Level 50
- (A) Eradication - Damage: Level 30
- (17) Eradication - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 30
- (19) Eradication - Damage/Recharge: Level 30
- (19) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 30
- (21) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
- (21) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage: Level 30
- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range: Level 50
- (23) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance: Level 50
- (23) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50
- (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
- (25) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (25) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (27) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (27) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (29) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal): Level 50
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection: Level 30
- (A) Aegis - Resistance: Level 50
- (29) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
- (31) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Jumping IO: Level 50
- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range: Level 50
- (31) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance: Level 50
- (31) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50
- (33) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (33) Kismet - Accuracy +6%: Level 30
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance: Level 50
- (33) Numina's Convalescence - Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (34) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge: Level 50
- (34) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (34) Numina's Convalescence - Heal: Level 50
- (36) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery: Level 50
- (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50
- (36) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 50
- (36) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy: Level 50
- (A) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
- (37) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (37) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (37) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (39) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (A) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (39) HamiO:Golgi Exposure
- (39) Theft of Essence - Chance for +Endurance: Level 30
- (40) Numina's Convalescence - Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (40) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge: Level 50
- (40) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Shield Wall - Defense: Level 50
- (42) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
- (42) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +3% Res (All): Level 50
- (42) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (43) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
- (A) HamiO:Endoplasm Exposure
- (43) Nightmare - Accuracy/Endurance: Level 50
- (A) Empty
- (A) HamiO:Ribosome Exposure
- (43) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30
- (A) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
- (45) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
- (45) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (A) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
- (45) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50
- (46) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 50
- (46) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy: Level 50
- (46) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance: Level 50
- (48) Miracle - +Recovery: Level 40
- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff: Level 50
- (48) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge: Level 50
- (48) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance: Level 50
- (50) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance: Level 50
- (50) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance: Level 50
- (50) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up: Level 50
- (A) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
Level 1: Brawl- (A) Empty
- (A) Celerity - +Stealth: Level 50
- (A) Empty
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Quote:I follow my glorious and perfect leader Arcanaville into the new world order. Heretics shall have no place in this world. All hail Arcanaville. (Where is the blank face smiley with the eyes of someone who is dead inside and has no thoughts of their own?)Originally Posted by Umbral
>.< Bad Werner! You should never blindly trust anyone, even Arcanaville. I swear, it's like no one except for me is willing to challenge her assumptions and data on anything! Peer review dammit! Peer review!
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Quote:Well, OK. Here's my Katana/Dark. As the sig says, "coming soon". I'm still assembling all the IOs, so I don't yet have any AVs under my belt, but it should be able to handle several at once. Main weakness is defense debuffs. It's not an AV-specific build, though. Too little DPS for it to go quickly, wasted AoE damage, wasted fear, and so on. Just a general-purpose build.Originally Posted by dume
If any of you is bored/willing to/have it somewhere - feel free to post some of your AV capable builds (alrdy got nihilli's awesome one
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Unless it's Arcanaville. Then have blind faith.
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Quote:I think I remember arguing that BF -> SS -> AS was better, even before the Gladiator Proc, so it might well be me that gave you the (possibly) incorrect impression about how close they were on DPS. I suspect I was earlier using some theoretical numbers or something. Even then, I think it was lagging a little on single target. Now I'm calculating based on my */Super Reflexes DPS template build. I think using an actual near-top-end DPS build with the recharge to run these chains probably gives a little better picture, but the actual numbers I'm getting may well also be an artifact of exactly how I built my template, and the template is also a couple issues old now. So take everything with a grain of salt.Originally Posted by Nihilii
I stand corrected then, although I didn't remember the BF -> SS -> AS being that bad compared to the other one (and it was before the glad proc was introduced). Good example of why perceptions are bad and math is good.
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I'm not so sure that Dark Melee/Regen is a BETTER choice than Dark Melee/Invulnerability for AVs. Maybe Umbral can chime in on this one. To be sure, DM/Regen can solo AVs, but I'd rather have Invulnerability personally, much as I like Regen. Super Reflexes is definitely a good choice, possibly better for AVs, but if so, probably not by a wide margin, so not worth it if you don't like Super Reflexes.
As for Willpower relying too much on Rise to the Challenge, that's true, but that and Soul Drain are why you surround yourself with minions while AV fighting. You would do the same thing on most Invulnerability builds to boost Invincibility and again to fuel Soul Drain. -
Both would be very good. I'd probably go with Invulnerability because it benefits significantly more from Siphon Life. And as an alternative, there's Dark Melee/Shield Defense. That's flavor of the year for AV soloing because of the big damage buff and ability to soft cap defense. I'm guessing that Invulnerability would be more survivable (soft-capped defense plus big resists), but there's a lot to be said for burning through AVs quickly instead of slowly.
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Just glancing briefly, I think Tough is worth slotting for more resistance. No, you can't drop a recharge from Hasten and still be perma, but with only a 1.4 second gap, I'd personally grab that slot and use it elsewhere. One option is a Ribosome in Tough, giving you another 2.3% smashing/lethal resistance and reducing your endurance by 0.08 EPS. A much more expensive option is the Shield Wall +3% resistance IO. No endurance savings, but 3% more resistance to everything. There might be an even better use for the slot, but I'm too lazy to do a lot of searching.
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Quote:Blinding Feint -> Ablating Strike -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike is still the highest DPS. Even with Fury of the Gladiator, Blinding Feint -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike loses out on DPS. What it gets in exchange is a little more AoE and a little better top end when recharge buffed. Here's how the total DPS breaks down on my sample builds depending on number of targets you can fit in the cone:Originally Posted by Nihilii
I think BF->SS->AS is a bit more, since the Fury of Gladiator proc. I can't remember (and don't feel like checking) what number of recharge either of these chains require, though.
The other advantage of the second chain is when you have recharge buffs. The first chain caps out at +314% recharge and the second caps out at +355% recharge. So let's say that team buffs had you at +355% recharge or above:Code:Targets BF>AS>SS>AS BF>SS>AS 1 238 223 2 315 325 3 393 426 4 470 528 5 548 630
So I wouldn't call either strictly superior. It depends on what you're after and how good you are at getting enemies in your cone. For AV soloing, I'd definitely go with the first one - better damage on the AV, and less AoE is an advantage because you're trying to keep your Rise to the Challenge fuel alive. Not sure about for general play, though if you're cranking up the number of enemies and are good with cones, I might go with the second one. On a mostly teaming build, I'd think the second one, but I don't team enough to know what's good and bad on teams.Code:Targets BF>AS>SS>AS BF>SS>AS 1 250 244 2 331 356 3 412 468 4 494 579 5 575 691
As for required recharge, that depends on what you mean. Normally, we mean "to get the chain gapless", in which case they require +314% recharge and +355% recharge respectively, both of which you're just not going to achieve solo. But in this case, I think it is more appropriate for it to mean "to get the optimal stacking of the procs and Blinding Feint". In that case, you're looking at +273% on Ablating Strike for the first chain, and +265% on Blinding Feint for the second chain. However, at those levels of recharge, the second chain is losing even more single-target DPS compared to the first, and I'd just go with the first. Both at +273% recharge:
Code:Targets BF>AS>SS>AS BF>SS>AS 1 235 214 2 312 312 3 389 410 - needs three targets to pull ahead 4 465 508 5 542 605
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Quote:Yeah, I was doing a little guesswork, and I could be wrong. I figured that for an AV build, you'd be trying to soft cap willpower. I figured that would take all of your resources. But maybe it wouldn't, and you could find a few spare slots for Luck of the Gamblers, and purple sets ARE nice for attacks. Put a purple set in Blinding Feint, pick up a few more recharge set bonuses, and you'd be there. Plus then you save yourself an attack, freeing up a power and slots to help you soft cap. I think I somehow got in my brain that the OP WANTED a lot of attacks, but I see no evidence for that, so I may have been conflating two different threads, or might just be insane.Originally Posted by Nihilii
I sort of agree and disagree.
Running BF->AV, the only recharge my DB/WP had was LotGs and purple sets in BF and SS. The purple procs are great for DPS, and with defense sets you're not likely to get any positional defense anyway. I mean I could have about 3% more S/L defense and E/N defense (with a kinetic combat in BF and an eradication in SS) at the cost of ~15 or ~20 DPS. Looking at my own build, it doesn't seem worth it to me. The lower kill speed would probably cancel out the mitigation boost.
Now, maybe there's other DB/WP builds in which it would make perfect sense, builds that would be closer to the softcap for example.
So on further review, it's definitely worth considering going for the Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals chain, and I probably WOULD go for that one on a Willpower, assuming I could fit everything I wanted in. -
Quote:I'm personally slotting Dark Regen like this:Originally Posted by Ignitros
How would you slot dark regen? I have 3 extra slots to toss into it.
Armageddon: accuracy/recharge
L53 Golgi Exposure
Theft of Essence: chance for +endurance
Numina's Convalescence: endurance/recharge, heal/recharge and heal/endurance/recharge
33% accuracy (I have enough global to-hit and accuracy to make up for this)
84% endurance eiscount
84% heal
96% recharge
12% regeneration
25 hit points
But that is NOT what I'd recommend for most people. Any healing, particularly that much healing, is normally a waste. But I like the security of knowing I could fight an AV without a bunch of minions to fuel my Dark Regeneration. Most people should also have a lot more accuracy.
Anyway, by 3 extra slots, I assume you mean 4 slots total? Maybe this?
Fury of the Gladiator: accuracy/endurance/recharge
Touch of the Nictus: accuracy/endurance/recharge
Theft of Essense: accuracy/endurance/recharge
Theft of Essence: chance for +endurance
60% accuracy
60% endurance discount
60% recharge
10% regeneration