Wavicle
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If people are finding the new content too hard now, I can't imagine what they're going to think of Omega slot content.
Also, yes, melee is impacted a bit more by Battle Maiden than range is. However, I would be willing to bet that there will be future encounters that punish you for being Too far away at a critical time. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Getting rid of tank and spank (or even more situations without it) sounds grand...if you happen to not be a tank.
When that happens, you begin to question the need for a low damage AT with excessive defense and taunting when crap like the Apex death patches circumvent defenses and that little bit of tanking involved (IE taunting to get BM out of a blue puddle) can be done by Scrappers and Brutes.
But, that of course is what I've been saying for years; the devs trivialize the Tanker's so-called advantages and punish them for them at all times, even when they are not much of an advantage.
The hero ATs are 100% designed to have a tank stand in one spot, have enemies surrounding them and have their teammates picking them off. That was the dynamic the ATs and most of the power sets were designed around.
Any move away from that dynamic without first updating the ATs and power sets that were designed to work with that dynamic is unwelcome by me.
The devs want more movement by players? Fine. Make various changes to positional powers like removing the various speed penalties from Stone armor, extending Invincibility's defense buff to a 50' radius, remove all rooting and movement suppression and give all of the melee ATs more ranged attacks in their attack sets that aren't inferior DPS to their melee attacks and then we'll talk. Oh, and fix Tankers.
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I greatly enjoyed being a Tanker (one of two) on the Apex TF. There were mobs tough enough, and groups large enough, to actually warrant having multiple tankers. Battle Maiden was not very hard compared to some bosses in That Other Game. People in this game are just so used to their Kin huddle, but that'll change.
Oh and...they DID fix Tankers. They raised our HP cap to be the highest in the game and they added a 20% Res debuff to our required level 1 attack. No one is tougher than us and we bring excellent tools for fighting groups and bosses. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Heraclea
just like every encounter meant to be soloed at all ought to be soloable within a reasonable time on a Defender of appropriate level not built for damage, every encounter ought to be soloable on a Tanker not built for damage, too.
I don't think I agree with your interpretation of the basic design philosophy of the game. -
Quote:They were Already essentially balancing with the assumption that everyone took Fitness to begin with. Now they simply KNOW that to be the case. It changes nothing.Originally Posted by Savos
They already did this (partially) by granting the fitness tree to everyone. I doubt the developers rebalanced all the sleep powers in the game to account for this though. Why do you think support will now be able to just ignore mez anyway? At best they can get some resistance, but since you keep forgetting (although now you at least put both in your statements...) that resistance does not equal protection, thus you still get hit with it for some number of seconds.
One other thing since you think you "need" -10 protection, try turning off your mez toggle/click and pick up Acrobatics (a paltry -2 hold only protection) and just run that for a bit and see how often you get held. Still going to get stun/sleep though you rarely get held even with such little protection, especially since you get some crazy high resistance to go with (which no current melee mez protection power provides that I know of).
Also, to flip an earlier comment around, why keep mez at all if 40%+ of the characters can completely ignore the mechanic already? -
Quote:I'm pretty sure it does have to be coded as two separate shots, but who know how his TF is coded?Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i thought the one-shot code was supposed to be based on all the damage from a single entity/attack in a single server tick. So the attack could do six different types of damage for five times your hp, but it won't take you below 1 hit point. Of course any sort of DoT, even a single damage tick delayed by a half second, will be unaffected by the one shot code.
Also, I did NOT say pulling was cheating. I said taking him away from his clones was cheating, and that cheat has now been prevented. Pull him all you want.
So much whining in this thread about an encounter that is not hard. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Tin_Soldier
Yes, we now play a game where pulling is sometimes cheating and somtimes not. It's kind of funny actually.
This is such a ridiculous statement.
Pulling is never cheating.
There are two encounters (I know of) in the game where it is INEFFECTIVE. It's never cheating.
Pull Trapdoor all you want. No one will accuse you of cheating. Just don't expect his regen to stay low if you don't kill his clones. -
Quote:I think the recharge of his clone summoning power may be able to be slowed. It seemed on my Warshade like once I really laid into him he stopped summoning.Originally Posted by Arbegla
Im pretty sure the summoning rate is every 30 seconds. Thing is, 30 seconds seem to go by quickly, so it gives the illusion that hes summon more often then normal. Next time, time it. chances are it'll be within 30 seconds.
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Quote:I use the power to get into position for melee strikes without taking the alpha strike. It's quite good for that, not just a panic button at all.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Okay, so the power itself hasn't been nerfed - it's just been overtaken by buffs to flight.
I would never argue that it was a good power for anything but a panic button, mind you, and I don't like panic buttons anyway... I was just curious. -
Quote:You DID do something wrong. You tried to open up on an EB solo with a snipe without chugging some oranges and purples first. What did you think was going to happen if you had hit? Think you would have one shotted him?Originally Posted by Ironik
Telling us we're "doing something wrong" is a total ****** move, man. In my very first encounter with Trapdoor I set up my Snipe and fired it... and missed. He then blasted me with one shot to within an inch of my life and before I could click on a green he killed me with the second shot. I didn't do anything wrong there, I simply had the misfortune of coming up short on a stupid dice roll. And no, I'm not "lacking in Accuracy" or any other retarded excuse you're going to try and use: it's a perfectly competent Blaster build with IOs and IO sets which boost everything from Acc to Regen.
Say you'd hit him, what was to stop him from killing you right away ANYWAY?
And telling you you're doing something wrong is NOT whatever you said it was. This boggles my mind, what do people expect? Fail at encounters, come here and complain and then expect us to say, better luck next time? NO, I'm going to tell you if you're dying against Trapdoor (repeatedly, occasional bad luck is just something that happens) you're doing something wrong, ask you what you did, and then give you suggestions how to improve.
Why complain here if you don't want suggestions on how to improve? -
Quote:It's perfectly fine that someone had a different experience from someone else. But if one person complains the mission is too hard and someone else solos it with the same powersets without temps or IO sets then it's not the mission being too hard, the first person is doing something wrong.Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Imagine that. Someone had a different experience than someone else...
/sarcasm
Or they just got unlucky, but if that's case they can try again and probably will succeed the second or third time. -
I am sorry you are having such difficulty. I just did the mission last night on two different toons, one on +2/x3 and the other on +1/x2. In both cases I killed the clones right away and then went back to killing Trapdoor. In one case he died before summoning a second clone. In the other he did it a second time, I killed that, then went back to him and he died before getting a third one off.
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I just solod this arc on both my Widow and my Warshade.
The Widow was on +2/x3 and the Warshade was on +1/x2.
The Widow used Oranges and Reds for every fight. The Warshade used Purples and Reds.
In both cases I killed the clones as soon as they spawned and Trapdoor went down fast enough.
Both toons pulled Holtz and defeated him easily enough.
The Widow defeated the Honoree without a problem.
The Warshade was knocked out by the Honoree several times, but did manage to get him down eventually using only Inspirs and Powers. No Shivans, Nukes or other Temps. I never really expected to be able to solo him successfully, so that was good enough for me.
Echo of Minos was incredibly easy with him eventually running from both toons too slowly to escape and was defeated through his Unstoppable or One with the Shield or whatever he has.
My Widow is mostly lvl 30 common IOs with a few specials like Steadfast +Def, Miracle +Rec, and Mind Link frankenslotted with Def/Rech. She has and used Elude.
My Warshade is frankenslotted with yellow and orange IOs with a few partial sets for +HP, +Regen, +Rec, and +Acc and has only a KB Prot as far as Specials go. He has and used Dwarf form.
You're free to build however you like, but the devs aren't going to balance the game for Every possible iteration of a soloists build. They are going to generalize based on what the various powersets have available to them.
Also, you CAN get unlucky with def and acc. That's just the nature of the game. -
Quote:Did it tonight on first my Widow then my Warshade.Originally Posted by Boomie
Honestly that had to be the way you approached it. I ran it on my widow who has all common IO's with the exception of Mind Link which is frankenslotted with Def/Rech IO's and had no problems. I ran right up to Trapdoor, hit ML then proceded to drop him well before ML dropped. The mish was set on +0/x2 btw.
On the Widow he summoned a clone right as I went in, I found it, killed it, then went back to him, when he was at about half health he summoned another clone, I killed it then killed him.
I used Oranges and Reds.
Letting him summon lots of clones is just silly.
Was on +2/x3. She's mostly lvl 30 common IOs, a few specials like Steadfast +Def and Miracle +Rec. No sets though. She has Elude, also she has Tough. -
Quote:If you need more, exit the mission and go get more. Is that really so hard?Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Nope. You're assuming. And you really should stop.
The path TO him is lined with Council (some of whom have stuns/mezzes) and Arachnos. He could well have burned some insps on the way in he would otherwise have needed.
All completely irrelevant. He specifically said he died after his toggles dropped when the enemy needed to be hit one more time. If his toggles hadn't dropped he could have hit him one more time. If he hadn't gotten mezzed his toggles wouldn't have dropped. If he used a BF or Dwarf he wouldn't have gotten mezzed.Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The fight could have taken long enough that the essences died. (Which, aside from doing damage, could have been taking some of the aggro.)
The hold, you assume he has, could have missed.
The toggle that dropped could have been Acrobatics.
He could - with the chance to hit that every *minion* has - have been hit through a full set of purples.
If skipping Dwarf is not doing something wrong than neither would be an SR skipping Practiced Brawler or an Ice Tank skipping Wet Ice. If those fall outside of your definition of doing something wrong then we should just stop discussing this altogether.Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You assume too much. Including that he did anything "wrong."
Not taking dwarf is not doing something "wrong." -
Quote:Originally Posted by Flarstux
My electric/ice tanker had no troubles with Trapdoor. No pulling. Just knocked him into the lava and kept him there.
My WS was stunned and defeated, but rezzed and prevailed in short order. Knocked him into the lava also.
Trying it now with my Widow. So far... he's killed her THREE TIMES. She's not yet got his health down to half. Had him in the lava once, but he kept running away and eventually got out.
Edit: she's killed 12 clones so far.
Anybody else done it tonight?
I will do this on my Widow tonight and let you know what happens. -
Quote:You know what. This is crap. I'm not going to be bullied like this.Originally Posted by Tin_Soldier
If you don't know the answers to 2 and 3 you can't intelligently answer 8.
If you didn't watch the fight you can't intelligently answer 9.
Here's what we know about Twisted Toon's Warshade fight:
Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage).
Twisted Toon's toggles dropped.
Twisted Toon's character was killed.
From that meager amount of information you presumed to tell someone who wasn't even in the fight to L2P.
Goodbye.
If you want REAL answers to what you could do different then YOU TELL ME what you did at first instead of expecting me to guess.
But yea, I'll repeat. Based ONLY on the information you provide HERE.
Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage).
Twisted Toon's toggles dropped.
Twisted Toon's character was killed.
You died because you got mezzed in a fight where you only needed to hit him ONE MORE TIME.
You did something wrong. With no more information I can assuredly say you could have hit Dwarf. If you didn't TAKE Dwarf then that's something you did wrong. Your AT gets a power to deal with mezzes. If you don't take it then you should expect to have problems with mezzes.
With more information I could be more specific, but you'd apparently rather play guessing games than actually say what inspirs you brought, what your build is, or what your strategy was. -
Quote:If you can't kill the clones VERY quickly then there is something wrong with your build (for the purposes of soloing, it might be a great team build) or your approach. They are weak. Extremely weak. This arc can only be done by 50s. If you can't defeat the clones quickly then how do you do tips or radios? The clones are no more powerful than any normal mob anywhere.Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
I haven't experienced it since the patch. But the notes specifically state that the clones will no longer stop spawning. And with the two characters that fought him, I didn't have the DPS to kill the clone *and* do any significant damage to Trapdoor before the next one popped up. On my Controller, I only beat him at all by dragging him down the hallway - if I stopped to kill a clone, by the time it was gone he'd have gained nearly all of his health back. Knocking him into the lava wasn't an option for either of my characters that did complete this, due to their total lack of knockback. As one is a Mastermind (and zombies are flammable) and the other a Plant Controller who ran in with the Flytrap active, pulling him into the lava wasn't really an easy option. And no, I can't use the veteran staff attacks, because I won't have them for at least another year.
As I said, I managed to finish the fight, but that was in it's "broken" state, and I only did so by methods which are no longer apparently viable. (If you can't one-shot the clones, killing them isn't viable if it gives him time to heal back all the damage you've done. Which, on most of my characters, it probably would.) I don't expect them to change the fight, other than to remove any other "not working as intended" solutions. However, I don't plan to attempt it again, either. -
Quote:The fact that you died from being mezzed when he had so little life that you finished him with your rez shows me that you need to do SOMETHING different. You needed to hit him ONE more time. Your AT has access to a mez protection power THAT CAN BE HIT WHILE MEZZED and gives you access to damaging attacks. Apparently you didn't take or didn't use that power. I don't have to be there to know you're doing something wrong.Originally Posted by Tin_Soldier
If you don't know the answers to 2 and 3 you can't intelligently answer 8.
If you didn't watch the fight you can't intelligently answer 9.
Here's what we know about Twisted Toon's Warshade fight:
Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage).
Twisted Toon's toggles dropped.
Twisted Toon's character was killed.
From that meager amount of information you presumed to tell someone who wasn't even in the fight to L2P.
Goodbye.
I seriously don't understand people complaining they are having a hard time with something and then getting angry or hurt when people suggested things they could be doing differently. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
On the other, you admit that they change their minds - yet somehow think that "doesnt' change anything."
Clue for you: This is called "Player Feedback." Guess what may just push them to change back?
Yep, and that's all fine. However, as yet, I don't believe anyone in this thread has constructed an argument that suggests the encounter is truly too difficult for any particular powerset combo. Some particular power choices might make it harder or easier, but the devs really cannot be expected to balance every encounter for all possible gimped or nongimped builds.
If the devs determine that it IS too hard they can make it easier WITHOUT allowing people to circumvent the primary mechanic of the fight. -
Quote:I agree with ClawsandEffect that none of the missions in this arc should have been autocompletable in the first place. But since they are I don't really care enough to have them change that.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You should start arguing for that option to be removed, given your other stances. They are, after all (well, Honoree) a tougher fight.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Funny, I don't see your name in red.
Are you seriously this dim?
If the devs thought it was a valid option they would not have removed it. That's a huge freakin "duh".
Just like if the devs thought pulling Recluse away from his towers was a valid option they would have left it in.
Just like if they thought killing the towers one at a time before defeating Recluse was NOT a valid option they would have removed it.
In MOST cases we can guess what the devs think is a valid option. There are not many bugs, design flaws, etc that help the players greatly that get left in. Not many at all.
I don't have to be a dev to guess what the devs think is invalid. I can infer based on their behavior.
EDIT, to respond to your edit: Yeah, they can change their mind about what they think is valid. That in no way changes anything. -
Quote:No, I never argued anything of the sort. You may have inferred it, but since it's clearly false I can't imagine why you would think I would argue such a thing.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
However, the Alpha Slot is not, as you have been arguing, a - let me choose the wording carefully here - a reward upon trapdoor's defeat. Which is what it appears you've been arguing.
You DON'T have to fight Honoree or Holtz. That mission can be auto completed. -
Quote:You think it was a valid option. The devs do not. Case closed.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Most? You sure about that? Since I can do so without a big issue for most mobs. Might want to check your facts before making an argument.
Is the option there in the first place? No?
Stop setting up strawmen to pretend you have an argument.
Gee, ya think?
Do you pay attention to what you read? Here, let me quote myself from a prior post:
Now, can you answer your own question, or do I need to spell that out for you as well? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Tin_Soldier
I do?
OK, for my edification then, some questions I'd like answered.
1) What 4XP difficulty level was Twisted Toon using in Mender Ramiel's arc?
2) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor mission?
3) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor fight?
4) How long after the start of the Trapdoor fight were Twisted Toon's toggles dropped?
5) What was Twisted Toon fighting when his toggles were dropped?
6) How long after Twisted Toon's toggles were dropped did the killshot land?
7) Do you believe the only way to build a viable Warshade is to include Dwarf form?
8) What improvements to Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout do you recommend?
9) What improvements to Twisted Toon's combat techniques do you recommend?
I don't have the answers to 1 through 4. 5 is Trapdoor, duh. I don't have the answer to 6.
7 is no, but I would expect the WS that did not take Dwarf to either die to mezzers a lot or carry extra BFs. HOWEVER, I do think that the only viable way to build a Melee toon includes taking whatever mez protection is available. By that token I would STRONGLY ENCOURAGE all WSs to take Dwarf and I MYSELF would never make a WS without Dwarf. So only viable way, no, only intelligent way? Unless you have incredible amounts of set bonus defense, pretty much.
8 has options. You could take a bunch of purples, some reds, a couple BFs. Or you could take a few oranges, a bunch of reds and a few BFs. Either would probably work. If one doesn't work, try the other.
9 is easy, use Dwarf or a BF when you get mezzed, or maybe even use a BF prior to getting mezzed so that you don't Have to use Dwarf form thereby keeping your damage up. Haven't done this mission yet on my WS, so I can't say for sure, but I'm going to assume you can summon fluffies from the clones. You also have a Hold and an Immobilize available to you. Again, I'm not certain, but they could conceivably be of use.
Above all though, with Dwarf OR BFs there is no reason you should be dying because of your toggles being down. I could see dying cause he just hit you too hard and your heals weren't effective enough, but dying to a mez? Just poor play. -
Quote:I think the difference is not significant in this case.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No. It is the reward for FINISHING THE ARC.
I don't get an end-of-mission reward for defeating the third minion in a normal mission.
I don't get an end-of-arc reward for finishing the second mission in it.
You do not get the alpha slot for defeating trapdoor. It's not a POTENTIAL reward. In no instance whatsoever do you get rewarded with an alpha slot for defeating trapdoor. Neither trapdoor nor his mission rewards you with the alpha slot in any way, shape, or form.
INF is a guaranteed reward.
XP potentially is, if you haul along someone who's not 50.
A salvage drop is a POTENTIAL reward.
A recipe is a potential reward.
Do you understand the difference?
You don't get the Alpha Slot directly for defeating Trapdoor, no.
But you also don't get the Alpha Slot WITHOUT defeating Trapdoor.
Therefore you must defeat Trapdoor to get the Alpha Slot.
Therefore the Alpha Slot is a reward for having done several things INCLUDING defeating Trapdoor.