VastinArdaen

None.

The nature of the changes that would be needed to make PvP attractive to anyone beyond a hard-core few are so dramatic that if the Devs did it the user base would crucify them and flee.

The last thing they should do at this point is incentivize PvP either. The one thing that is worse than having a painful PvP experience in your game, is accidentally drawing your casual players into it to try and get some loot or whatever, and having them exposed to the horror and leave.

They should just leave well enough alone, save maybe for minor tweaks to the most aggregious engagement issues, like phase shift and stealth mechanics. It's much too late in the day to do much else.

Loved the Wave Attacks, but alas, they are all I've seen so far. Haven't run across any hostages or helpful NPCs yet - looking forwards to them a lot however.

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LOL, perhaps I am just a cynic at heart but I remember how the Tanker changes came about. Don't praise before you hear their intentions. ;P

Tankers begged for the devs to take a look at their class some of the more vocal folks got them to do it. And we all know that it took a good long while before the smoke cleared from that firing line.

I certainly hope the controller changes go smoother, but Fire and Illusion players had better see the writing on the wall.

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Hah. Good point. Hate to tell you folks, but right now, while the Summoner AT's are a bit lacking pre-32, the post-32 game is definite Nerf fodder I'm afraid, certainly a possibility for the Fire & Illusion pets. I've played alongside them quite a bit, and I think it's been around 2 levels since I've seen my friend's Ill/Kin take any damage personally (an exaggeration, but not by much).

Furthermore, any build that regularly posts it's 'How to Solo each AV at +2 lvls' on every board they find really should expect a good hard nerfing as the cost of their bragging rights. I'm not calling for it, or even advocating it - I'm just warning that it's fairly likely that fire and illusion should expect some significant 'trade offs' for whatever beneficial changes they get in their pre-32 power sets.

Me? I'm MC. While in some respects I actually feel the set is nearly overpowered itself (I turn massive battles into passive still-life scenery on a grand scale...), it has the lowest DPS in the game and it's so hard to play that it is quite rare. I'll be surprised if anything significant occurs at my end of the spectrum. Basically a whole different AT from the rest in any case, w/o the pet. Please Statesman - no pets for MC... I prefer active and (arguably) intelligent teammates.

Excellent post Aussie, if a tad stressed.

You have hit the nail on the head. PvE advancement curves are all about stringing players gradually through the game content over an extended period of time, which is fine and dandy and works great for keeping the community addicted and happy.

But PvP is totally different. We WANT to fight each other - but without some kind of scaling mechanism, we will not be able to. If I WANT to fight my friend's lvl 40 fire tanker with my lvl 32 FF defender - I simply won't be able to do that in any meaningful way without a flat scaling mechanism.

If I DIDN'T want to fight him, I'd never have to because the system is concensual. Once you've determined that, it makes NO SENSE not to level the field between people who have consented - all you do is DENY them the opportunity to have a good fight. Everyone knows that player skill is not going to make up for a 5 lvl difference, much less a 25 lvl difference.

I agree with you that the insistance that lvl should be a factor in PvP combat is essentially meaningless and illogical. Players will very quickly learn that the only people they can fight are people of essentially their own level, and as such all you are doing is denying everyone - both High and Low - the opportunity to engage in contests of skill.

A foolish loss of a huge amount of fun playing opportunity for all of us if they don't eventually decide to put some kind of level scaling mechanism into CoV - it could even be OPTIONAL so those who really want to waste their time in statistically pre-determined contests may do so - more power to them, but I have no interest in that.

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Most of the ideas offered have centered around these principles:

1) SCALING:either damage or accuracy or hitpoints..up or down; limited scaling within a limited level range or extensive scaling of all levels

2) Absolute LEVEL PARITY: complete negation of original status of combatants and equalization in terms of hit points/powers/etc.

3) ABSOLUTE NATURAL STATE: characters retain the natural state(HP/levels/accuracy/power effectiveness)


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Good breakdown there - and if we assume that combat is ALWAYS concensual, then...


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Just realized there is a very easy way to break down your list up there in terms everyone will understand.

Version 1 Scaling: Basically SideKick the lower level combatant to the higher (at equal lvl rather than -1). Higher level retains the advantage of powers/slots, but not statistics.

Version 2 Absolute Parity: Exemplar the higher combatant to the lower. Deactivate invaliated powers. Probably not much you can do about the slots and SOs though. PvP between pre & post 22's will probably always be a rough business.

Version 3: No scaling: Don't really think this is valid except for team combats/missions within a tightly defined level range. At least groups can use normal exemplar/SK to help smooth things out

Bear in mind that any form of contest between characters of >2-3 levels difference will be pointless, save to point out bad AT balance issues and to piss people off. Multiplayer PvP games like Quake are so much fun because everyone's got a basically even shot - PvP MMOG's classically suffer horribly because they don't. Luckily CoH has some very good mechanisms available to help level the field and keep things fun and fast paced - if they are used properly.

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Most of the ideas offered have centered around these principles:

1) SCALING:either damage or accuracy or hitpoints..up or down; limited scaling within a limited level range or extensive scaling of all levels

2) Absolute LEVEL PARITY: complete negation of original status of combatants and equalization in terms of hit points/powers/etc.

3) ABSOLUTE NATURAL STATE: characters retain the natural state(HP/levels/accuracy/power effectiveness)


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Good breakdown there - and if we assume that combat is ALWAYS concensual, then all we need to do is determine the format to decide on which of the above is the correct answer:

Duel: Two Men Enter - One Man Leaves...

You absolutely want statistical equalization (hp/damage/acc) for the duel - basically SK the lower level contestant to the higher. Why? Because there's no point in doing it any other way. If two people agreed to duel, then presumably they want to have a decent fight (otherwise its pointless!). Even 2 lvls of disparity are likely to make the fight a statistically meaningless contest, so you might as well just flatten it. The higher lvl will STILL have the advantage of powers/slots, so chances are they'll win regardless, but at least the fight might be worth watching, and a substantial difference in player skill or character build may turn the tide. No lvl 2 will ever beat a 50, but a 32 might beat a 40 if they fight well or have a very good build under these circumstances.

Let me make this point absolutely clear: to do it any other way is to PREVENT THEM FROM BEING ABLE TO FIGHT EACH OTHER - and if combat is consensual, then why on earth do that?

Competitive Mission - Reach the goal/whatever first

Now if they have this contest format (and I hope they do) there will be mobs in the mix, and team levels will matter. In this case the levels of the entrants should be confined to a strict band (including exemplars and sidekicks), and everyone should be fighting at their own effective levels. Team dynamics should keep the individual level differences from being statistically overwhelming. Unlike normal missions, exemplars will need to be locked in for the duration.

Team Arena Duel - probably the toughest choice. You could effectively SK everyone in the battle to the level of the highest contestant, which would probably make for the best fights overall. But in theory team dynamics will make the contest statistically complex enough that entrants in a tight level range will still have fun even if they aren't equalized. One high level ringer will completely throw it though, so you really do have to work with a tight range (+/-3 levels) and raise/lower anyone outside that range to make it a decent contest.

What it really comes down to is that if players are looking for kick@$$ knock-down, drag-out superhero fights that don't take an hour to arrange due to level differences, then you REALLY want your levels equalized in most of these contests.

The AT/build/power/slot differentials will still be quite substantial - but at the end of the day you want things close enough that player skill and/or teamwork is the final deciding factor, not a set of pre-ordained mathematical equations that none of us really have any control over.

Anything less would simply be un-Heroic.

As for those who actually think it would be fun to sweep into the Atlas city training zones with a lvl 50 fire blaster and rain death on all the newbs - forget it. First off, the devs aren't foolish enough to allow it (I hope ), secondly, we really don't need players like that in the game. They're called griefers.

Secondly, if the game allows formal encounters between characters of substantially different levels, then they might as well statistically equalize their levels (the Monster Effect), otherwise the encounters won't be terribly fun, now would they? Yeah sure, Spider Man SHOULDN'T be able to beat Superman, but frankly, the comic will be much more fun to read if he at least has a fighting chance - and its not like those extra powers, slots, and SO's aren't going to make a serious difference - they will.

So the REAL question here isn't which system you like, the question is whether you actually enjoy challenging fights. If you want a challenge, then you want the levels statistically equalized. If you don't, well, then you probably should be fighting unintelligent mobs, not other players who will have no fun in a one-sided encounter.