Unthing

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wow. kinetics is a monster, theres very few other builds that can nova and be at max endurance within 2 seconds of the nova, that alone makes kinetics an increadible offender.


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True, not hit my nova on my kin yet, however that only means kinetics is good in the late game when you have Fulcrum Shift and Nova. Other primaries can be offenderish from day one.

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protection in: FS debuffs 1 target, Transference removes another mob from the fight, use the blasts to debuff/knockback/immob the rest, rinse repeat. once you hit epic and put a hold in you can lock a whole mob down fairly swiftly.

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FS debuffs all mobs in the large AoE, but not enough to be safe. Transference prevents one enemy from using big attacks ( unless you are /elec in which case you can shut him down permanently ). Even with Tesla Cage, Fulcrum shift and all the other lovely tricks, you are still wide open to mez effects, unlike Rad and Dark who can floor an spawn's to hit before they realise it.

Assuming something doesn't come up put Golden Golem down. He has a six slotted taunt ( currently slotted for max range ) and a six slotted Dull Pain.

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As said above I strongly recommend you change your primary. Empathy has no means of boosting your own paltry defender damage and is one of the reasons I rarely play my defender anymore. Rad, Dark and Kin are all good primaries if you want to make an offender and they all have powers which are team-orientated as well as helping yourself.

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I wouldn't recommend Kin for an offender. Whilst it has powers to help boost your damage and does have single target debuff powers it isn't self sufficient enough IMO to make a good offender. It doesn't provide protection from enemies just a really strong heal ( the best AOE heal in the game IMO ).
Also I found that Kin does not give you much opportunity for attacking due to lots of click powers ( heals, siphons etc ), I would suggest a less busy primary such as Rad or Dark. Rad certainly provides great potential for an offender.

So the horde doesn't qualify for Raids? Wow!

I always thought it was a fairly active supergroup.... not that I'm helping much.

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How much aggro is 'all necessary aggro', half a spawn? The whole spawn? Can you hold all necessary aggro in all sensible circumstances? Can you hold all necessary aggro against all enemy type.

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Nope, as an Inv Tanker, versus a mob consisting of largely Elemental/Energy and of fairly high-level my Defense is rendered useless, I'm currently sitting with ~25%-ish nrg/ele resistances. I'm not saying I'm face-planting constantly but I definetly do feel the sting from those types of damage.

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I think you missed my point ( or I put it badly ). I wasn't on about damage types I was more on about the mix of ranged/melee and mobility/AI of enemies and the ability to keep/hold aggro on them, rather than the ability to not die. After all defences and survivability can be improved by defenders but aggro holding ability can't.
I'd be interested in how much aggro you think is 'all necessary aggro', personally I'd say >75% of the spawn or 45% each if there are 2 tanks.

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As long as they ain't dealing Nrg/Ele in loads I just dive in. I'm sure I can be a better tank, but it works for me ... and so far the team as well.


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Diving in works wonders in most cases but when you are fighting Nemesis at a cross roads there is a good chance that by diving in you can aggro 2-4 groups and they won't run to attack you. A pull is really helps here and IMO the tank is the best person to do it.

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Truth told my Tanker hasn't faced Nemesis yet. So I'll guess that will be something I'll experience for myself. If I suddenly discover I absolutely must have Taunt I'll remember who gave me the heads up.

But then again, Taunt is at a 5 target cap, you won't get a whole mob on it. And since Invinc is useless at range, I would probably still try to dive in first.

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Taunt taunts 5 enemy in a spawn, but if you are the first person to be seen by a spawn, you will be the default aggro target. So by taunting a spawn you get aggro of the whole group until other people start.
By taunting and hiding ( if your team will let you ) you gain the advantage that a whole spawn will run to your hiding place so all of the spawn can be in melee range and so you maximise the effect of invincibility. Now a ranged attack could be used for the same trick but that isn't something that tanks have easy access to ( only in the epics ).

The other major use of taunt is to help a squishy who is being attacked, the only way to do this as an aura/punchvoke tanker is to run and hit the offending enemy, thus risking losing aggro on some of your currently occupied enemies.

You do know about ED right? The fourth, fifth and sixth SO enhancements of the same type do next to nothing. So generally people slot attacks 1xACC, 3xDAM, 1xENDRED, 1xRECHARGE.

Joe Chott's hero planner doesn't take this into account become he stopped playing a while ago. One that does is Sherksilver's Hero Builder ( http://home.comcast.net/~SherkSilver/ ). It is uglier and slower than hero planner but is more up to date and more complete in power descriptions.

PS also the short build export is far more readable and gives no less information than the long one.

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The Taunt effect is unrelated to the damage dealt, but the Taunt duration is proportional to the power's base damage. Bridger was able to confirm this in a discussion on aggro some months ago - before the board wipe, I'm afraid.


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I didn't know that.
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Pool and Epic powers do indeed apply Gauntlet - Fireball for example is a very effective secondary Taunt.

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I knew Epic powers did. I never was sure about powerpools though.

Empathy isn't really a good choice for an offender. The only powers you can use on yourslef are the Auras, these add very little to your survivability.
I tried turning my Kinetic/elec into a more offendery build and it really didn't really work. You get mezzed and then end up dead, your strong heal won't help stop you getting hit. Offending with a buff heavy primary is a bad idea.

Archery has the advantage of being very fast recharge but has poor damage apart from the Blazing Arrow power. It has no secondary mez effects to save you.


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Clear Mind: becomes redundant in the latter levels due to number of ATs having status protection powers from lvl20.

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Please don't leave this out. It's such a useful power to use on fellow defenders/offenders.


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As for the Archery Set am thinking of selecting the following...
Snap Shot: have no option to leave out as it is already pre-selected.
Fistful of Arrows: although a little less damage then Aimed Shot, taken for multiple mob hits.
Aim: increased acc and dmg...nuff said. :P
Ranged Shot: despite the interruption, am wanting this for the extreme damage.
Rain of Arrows: extreme damage AoE/DoT...no endurance crash unlike other lvl38 2ndry def powers.

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You missed out the best power of the set, Blazing Arrow. It's the same damage as Ranged Arrow but non-interruptible and with a shorter animation time, I would replace Ranged arrow with it.

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As for the Power Pools & Ancillary, most like going for...

Fitness: going to take a maximum of 3 powers from here. Stamina is a certainty, however which powers would be ideal to get in this pool
- Swift or Hurdle: may get both so can maneuver around the map a lot easier
- Health: improved health recovery not as essential, however heard this gives better recovery to mez affects...ideal as I don't intend to take Acrobatics.
- Stamina: important with most if not all ATs

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Health is worth it for the sleep resistance. This means that sleep effects don't last as long. It doesn't effect other mez effects.

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Leadership: powers to suit my hero's bio. Most like take Maneveurs and Tactics. Possibly take Vengence if I don't take another ppower pool.

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Assault will be more useful if you intend to solo and in teams too. It will improve you sub-par damage.

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(I still firmly believe that a Tanker can hold all necessary aggro without Taunt, so I'm saying replacement for Tanker, not Taunt)

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How much aggro is 'all necessary aggro', half a spawn? The whole spawn? Can you hold all necessary aggro in all sensible circumstances? Can you hold all necessary aggro against all enemy type.

I have tanked multiple spawns ( one after another ) and possibly tanked entire missions without using taunt. However that was because they were missions where I didn't need a ranged taunt, perhaps had melee enemies with nice close spawns. Maybe I was on a team that let me get aggro and respected that. I do have a lovely big AoE ( Combustion ) to get aggro. You certainly can hold lots of aggro without touching the taunt key.

But against some enemy types, IMO an aura alone just doesn't work. Nemesis are a challenge for a tank, not because they are tough but because they have long aggro range AoE weapons that they use in preference to melee. Against Nemesis in a 8 man team, you better have a good tank with taunt or people are going to faceplant.

If I was to choose between a tank with taunt but who didn't know how to use it and a tank without who used his aura excessively well, I would go for the latter. But I would prefer a tank who used aura, taunt and punchvoke proficiently.

From my experiences of playing a Rad, you can only tank so far. Elite Bosses are a pushover, but the spawn sizes of a medium to large team could cause problems. Anchor based defences are also fickle, so whilst you may be fine in most circumstances, an anchor running or being defeated prematurely can spoil your day.
However having a tanker who understands your powerset and groups the enemies into your debuff zone really makes the difference.

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Well, on a large team I'm there's often a slim chance that there is a Controller or Defender, often negating any real need for Taunt.

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This often negates the need for a tanker too.

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The controller one I get.

What defenders negate the need for a tank?

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I do keep all tankers in my teams when I get one, but getting a tank without taunt always makes me go "damnit! yet again one without... oh well."

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I tend not to look for taunt. I tend to see how the tank behaves and the results of the engagements.

If takes on one enemy and I think "waste of space", if he takes his share or just a little more I think "Well, at least I have another guy in melee range, I'd prefer a scrapper though". If he takes half the spawn I think "Good, this should go well". If he takes the whole spawn and keeps them nice and close I think "Superb tanking! Time to AoE!".

This is from the point of view of either of my defenders and I think either of them are capable of looking after the sole tank in a 1 tank 8 person team for any sensible level enemies. It is also what I try to achieve with my tank.

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The reason why almost all tanker powers taunt is because of Gauntlet. All those auras (with the exception of Invinciblity) would only be drawing aggro based on their rather low damage rather than actually applying a Taunt.

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I'm not sure this is quite true.

AFAIK the taunt in Mud Pots goes with the slow effect which is auto-hit. The damage now requires a to hit roll.
Ice also get a taunt aura in Chilling Embrace. This does no damage.

Also I believe Gauntlet, unlike normal aggro applies a specific taunt effect that is unrelated to damage dealt, so a Jab and a Knockout Blow will have the same taunt duration. The normal damage related aggro will still occur but whilst under the influence of a taunt an enemy will stay targetting and attacking the tanker.


Can someone confirm whether the power pool attacks have the Gauntlet effect? The way to test is that with Gauntlet enabled attacks you can 'stack' enemies and hit up to 5 with single target attacks. If they don't then the gauntlet effect is a property of the powers in the Tanker secondary powersets rather than a proper 'inherent power'. This is in the same way that all Blasters powersets get an endurance discount in all their primary powers.

Gratz Chango!

It was nice to see you this morning as Tleollin for some pre work heroing.

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Armoured Core are the Tankers, I'm afraid I don't know who the leaders are.

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There are a fair few leaders of the Armoured Core. From memory some of the current leaders are
Jiaozy's tank J.Brute.
My tank Golden Golem.
Rock Eagle.
Disco King ( one of his incarnations ).

I'm pretty sure that there was a statement by one of the Red names ( Castle? ) early on ( beta or maybe later ) that said the unsuppressed AoE defence of Hide was in the 25%+ range. When suppressed this goes away. AFAIK this was always the case.

However you certainly lose the uber AoE defence that hide provides when you are discovered.

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Punchvoke only works on the enemy you're currently hitting.


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Not true. Single target Punchvoke hits up to 5 enemies near ( not sure how near ) the enemy you are hitting.

AoE punchvoke works on all the enemies you can hit.

It has naff duration but it does change so they target you.

I would never just rely on punchvoke and aura on my tank and he has fire secondary so holds aggro better than most.

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CE maybe a pseudo-res, but when I tend to fight I have nearly everything in melee range, so its still 14% damage mitigation.

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You are forgetting the -recharge and slow. The -recharge is significant. Also with a bit of motion on the tanks part slow can reduce DPS slightly too, ever seen a blaster use Caltrops?

The problem is that all of the Ice tanks nifty tricks ( defence, -recharge, -damage, -end ) are reduced in effectiveness when fighting high level opponents. Resistance doesn't do this. They are fixing defence in I7 so it it isn't reduced in effectiveness but that still leaves the other Ice effects.

Also damage debuff is resistable. A enemy with resistance to the damage type of its own attacks is debuffed less. For instance an Inv/SS tanker or Brute with 50% resistance will only be damage debuffed by 7%. This means that against some of the more dangerous foes, your damage debuff has less effect.

We are on Issue 6, however people are talking about Issue 7 which should hit in the next 2 months.

I have a level 17 Rad/Archery who I am currently levelling up. I've mainly been soloing.

Rad is great for debuffs which mean the enemies you fight are much less powerful, there is a good rad/rad guide by Irradiator in the Player guides section.

I would get Radiation Infection first it makes enemies in it's area much easier to hit and make them have reaal problems hitting you. Slot it up with 3 or 4 slots, initially end reduction, then move to to hit debuff when you get DO enhancements at level 12+.

Also get Accelerate Metabolism pretty early too, it gives a damage buff and increase recovery to all in the area effect. With 6 slots of DOs ( and Hasten from the speed pool ) you get it most of the time. With 2 of these you will find life MUCH easier both from a damage and an endurance standpoint.

Another worthwhile power is Enervating Field ( makes enemies less resistant and do less damage ). This sucks endurance quite heavily but is useable even at low level with 3 slots of end reduction.

The heal ( Radiant Aura ) is not great, it costs a lot of endurance for not much healing, I barely use it but it is probably worth getting.

I can't advise on Sonic unfortunately.

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I always thought Dark blast was pretty amazing, but psi is the winner! I find it hard to not play a /psi blaster ^_~
Psi has the best of everything, holds (even if they are immob and sleep) High(ish) damage (will domination/Telekenetic blast ftw!!) and some pretty nice AoE powers (Psionic Wail and psychic scream, hoorah!)
Psi has a pretty fast recharge, and some pretty high damage, I find that I can sometimes out damage a few blasters on some mobs (although I have to use an insp and have fortitude on me ^_~) and add to team control with telekenetic blast/subdue combo.
There isnt a power in psi blast that I don't love, it's far too underrated...
(also, lookout for my /psi blast guide that I am in the process of writing!!) *end plug*

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I did some fiddling with defender secondarys on the attack chain planner on Hero Builder. Assuming a Rad primary with Hasten and AM running and slotting heavily for recharge, Psi came out way ahead on single target DPS and DPE, although EPS was by far the worse. I think that it used the most power picks though.
Sonic came second. I can't remember the rest.
Archery actually came out ahead of Energy blast for DPS ( with the same DPE ) to my suprise and needed less recharges ( 1 in Blazing bolt ) for the ideal chain ( 3 powers ).

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Like with most things, some tankers are better players than others. I'm not sure that having/not having taunt necessarily has a lot to do with it, but I'd agree that, having picked taunt and then not using it seems... pointless?

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To tank properly you have to understand tanking and enjoy it. I think a lot of tankers don't.

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Why do I solo? - well, sadly, most teams I've been on have been pretty disorganised, and many seem to have absolutely no idea how to use a tanker. ....


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Unfortunately true. I think because there are less tanks that know what they are doing than there were...

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As to trying to explain to people that I need a few seconds alone with a mob to get them focused on me.... waste of breath/bandwidth usually. Again, I can't count the number of times I've been about to contact a mob only for someone to fire at them or worse, unload a big AoE before I can land a punch. Exactly which bit of 'wait please' was unclear? Again, I'm not wasting a power pick to mitigate other peoples stupidity.

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The bit that annoys me the most is when people stand in plain view when I say "Get out of sight, I'm pulling to here" and/or attack the enemies before they reach the designated point.

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Conversely, I've never found my lack of a taunt to be a problem with sensible payers. I have a ranged attack (hurl) and a PBAoE which work just fine as openers to get the bad guys interested in me - as long as no one else gets trigger happy first.

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A ranged attack does probably does wonders. Some other tanker swear by fireball, something that I have considered adding to my build. As far as I'm concerned these can replace much of Taunts functionality from the pulling side of things. However Taunt has got the advantage that it is autohit....

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They all will be better, Ice will be helped more but anything with a defence power will take adavantage from the change(even a blaster swallowing a handful of purples for the matter).

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2 purples rather than a handful. If he swallows more than 2 he is wasting them, 2 lucks will cap defence unless they change them. I suspect they will, they are overpowered anyway.

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It's not just ED. ED plus the AoE nerfs plus the Taunt Cap plus the def/res nerfs have all made tanking as it was, extremely difficult.

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Before the changes tankers were good on DOs, very solid on SOs and really awesome by the mid 30s.

Now they are good on SOs and very solid by the mid 30s providing they have certain builds ( of these Stone with Granite is the easiest to achieve but Inv can certainly get there too so I imagine the others can ).

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I think that is in part what's causing the decline in tanking. Previously you could start "tanking" in your teens and it was expected that a tank knew how to do their job. These days, however, you can't really tank properly until your early/mid-20's and that's more than enough time for you to get into a scranking mentality - and once you get into the routine it's hard to change it.

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I agree.

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BTW I've never seen a SS/Inv tanker hold agro WITHOUT taunt and their damage output (I have one) pales next to a scrappers damage. IMHO, and it is purely an opinion this type of tanker without taunt is just a scranker and the team would be better off with a scrapper.

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My standard trick from level 20ish was to hold aggro using just Combustion Punchvoke ( and later FSC ) and Invincibility and scan the rest of team and target them or their targets using taunt. The fact that my 'attack chain' was just PBAoEs meant that I could look after the team better. In I5 and later ( levels 22+ IIRC ) I found there was no point in using taunt on melee range enemies to 'keep' aggro, it was only there if I lost it.