Ultimo_

You know, I find it oddly sad and depressing that people feel the need to make personal slurs like this, and then pat each other on the back for it. I have said nothing insulting or offensive to you, yet you find it necessary make this kind of thing your main contribution to the thead. What, did I run over your mother or something?

This is a usual pattern. I come in and say I'm done with a thread, and a few individuals come back for a parting insult or two, knowing I will be back to respond to the insults.

Say whatever you like from now on. I am done here, the thread has served its purpose, and some illumination has been achieved. Thank you all.

Those are beliefs, not opinions.

I feel I should rebut this because it's not quite true.
I've never said I don't want to deal with endurance at all. Quite the contrary, I've said it should be part of the game, just not as big a part as it is now. See my last post for a clear statement of what I think. It's pretty much the opposite of what you're saying I think.

I wasn't dogpiled because I'm right (I can't be right or wrong, I posted an opinion). I was dogpiled because I'm me, as far as I can figure it. People that have disagreed with me in the past feel the inexplicable need to antagonize me in my every thread, whatever the topic may be.

What's going on here is a bunch of fans telling me to sod off for reasons I can't fathom. If you disagree with what I'm saying, fine. One can disagree without being disagreeable, however. People offer me solutions as though I haven't been here for years. I know how to slot. I know how to compensate. In this thread, I've said that the amount of attention one has to pay to doing this, and the degree to which it is effective, isn't adequate. Other threads have had similar courses.

I've never suggested a redesign. I've suggested tweaks here and there, specifically because a redesign is not going to happen, and shouldn't happen. You can't pull the rug out from under the players as Galaxies did. Giving us some relief where endurance is concerned isn't a redesign.

City of Heroes is far from broken. As I've said many times, it does a lot of things very well. However, that doesn't mean it's perfect. All I've done, and continue to do, is to occasionally look for ways to make the game better. For that, I get vilified. So be it, if the game does in fact improve. If even one of my thoughts or ideas is noted by the right people, then it's all worth it.

Some great observations here. My point has been that the combination of X+Y should always use the same endurance. It shouldn't matter how much of either you have. Consider Blasters and Defenders (since they use the same power sets). The blaster does more damage (X), and the Defender does more of the secondary effect (Y), so if the sum value of X+Y is the same, then equality is maintained. I'm suggesting that this sum is not remaining equal. I have no numbers to support this, of course, it's just a subjective feeling, but it's a feeling others seem to share, to some degree. I should also point out that, in the end, the only thing that matters in this game is damage (since that's the only way the game resolves things). If you can't do the damage to defeat the enemy, it is pretty much irrelevant that you have more of whatever "Y" is.


I wish I could do this. I'm just not mathy enough to do it effectively. If I do come up with something that would accomplish it, I'll post it.


I appreciate the thoughtful posts, and I've certainly been given lots to think about. I think I'm about done with the thread, however. I think my point is fairly clear, and I think the objections are too. If anything new comes to mind, I'll post again, but for now, I feel I'm repeating myself too often.

If I've not replied to you directly, I apologize. Chances are it's because the reply to your comments have already been discussed. If you absolutely must have a response, let me know and I'll provide one.

Do feel free to carry on the discussion, and I thank you all.

I'm not about to start a study so I can have an opinion. As I said in the first post, this is based on my own opinion. My "study" was based on the response to this thread. I've granted it's not perfect, but you're merely dismissing it.

"Give me EVIDENCE," you say.
"Here's a very brief survey," I say, "and it supports my opinion.
"That doesn't count," you say.

I've seen many research articles published by the American Psychiatric Association with sample sizes smaller than 50. I guess you'd better tell them their research is bollocks.

Agreement is agreement. I granted that it wasn't perfect, and that the numbers would be different for TOTAL agreement, but as usual, it's never enough with some people.



Uberguy, those last three sentences represent my opinion. I'm entitled to that. It's supported to some degree by what I've seen in this thread, and elsewhere. That is, again in my opinion, sufficient cause to give it a tweak.


Panzer, you're citing fringe cases, unless you're suggesting everyone can solo AVs and 8 man missions and whatnot. I'm interested in what's best for all (yes, including myself). I will say the problem is far more manifest solo because your team is doing things for you when you can't. Thus you don't notice it as readily.

I didn't say it was unmanageable, I said the effect it has is excessive. These statements aren't at odds.


Dechs, see my response to Rush, above. I don't need to do math to have an opinion.

I already granted that it's a small sample, and not necessarily representative, but it is all I have to work with. I've seen published research with smaller samples meant to generalize to the entire population of North America.

You wanted data, I gave you data. Belittling it isn't going to change that.

I have to take issue with this. Of course I'm asking for my own benefit. Do you expect me to ask for something I don't want? It's because I want to enjoy the game that I saw a problem in the first place. That doesn't mean I can't see past my own desires to what others want. As I've said, I started this thread specifically to see if others shared my perception of things. That's hardly selfish, and it's certainly not decietful.

It's not that I don't want ATs. Perhaps I should explain briefly how I'd have made the game. Be aware that this is only a very brief description.
I would have started the design of the game with the environment. I would have created a world that was active and had things going on in it such as we see in comic books (fires, car chases, etc.). I would then have created the superhero "prototype." This character would have baseline attributes and access to all the powers. I would then have designed the powers so they were all categorized in two ways - offense or defense. All characters would have to choose one of each. They would all be balanced against one another so that the only differences would be presentation (for instance, Power Bolts and Fire Bolts would do the same damage - only the special effect would differ).
At this point, with everything in balance, I would design the ATs based on their TEAM ROLES. Each would get an inherent power designed to be of benefit both solo and teamed. Tankers are meant to hold aggro and survive, so they would get a power that allows them to do this, and which is useful solo and teamed. Other classes would be the Scrapper (do damage), Defender (Buffs, including heals), and Controllers (Debuffs).
The idea would be that all the ATs could use ANY power set. The Tanker could have Force Fields and Energy Blasts if he wanted. He's not going to do the damage of the Scrapper, and he can't buff as well as the Defender (since their inherents would allow them superiority in those areas), but he'd still be able to Tank by virtue of his inherent.

If you see what I mean. I can go into more detail if you lie, but that's really a whole other thread.

I don't have to be telepathic or have datamining to see that the streets are empty. The population is dwindling, and you can't deny it. Now, whether that's because of Endurance issues is uncertain. All I've suggested is that it's something making the game less fun to play, and people not having fun might leave. Sure, it's not the root cause, but making it less of an issue might make the game more fun, which in turn might make people choose to stay.


Pendix, Quantumizer, You're quite right, fun is subjective. That's why I'm here asking if others feel the same way I do. Obviously not everyone does, but some apparently do.

Your analysis is interesting. However, I'll suggest that there are already incentives to advance (new powers, foes and areas, for example), and that the Endurance mechanic is unnecessary and damaging as a result.
As for looking for a sense of achievement, I would think players would rather overcome the enemies to get that, not their endurance woes. Of course, that's just my take on it.
You may be right, but I feel it's a bad design choice.


Dechs, I never said the endurance problem was "unmanageable," I said it was not fun. Others do seem to agree with that assessment.


Capa, the purpose of this is that I want to stay here and play. I mean, the game has a lot of potential, and it seems to me that this is something that should be relatively easy to fix, while having a significant impact on how fun the game is. It's certainly not the only thing that would help the game, but it seems to me to be something worth a lot of bang for the buck.


Burningchick, of course I have a vision for the game. We all do. Now, I'll grant, math isn't my strong suit, but I don't need to have a degree to know I'm not enjoying something, and it doesn't take calculus to know others feel the same way.
Oh, and welcome back.


Zanriel, Uberguy, your two posts are this whole thread in microcosm. I'll draw attention to two comments. First, that Zanriel is right, in the final analysis, if the game isn't fun people won't play it. Second, Uberguy is right, fun is based on overcoming reasonable challenges. The question becomes, "is the endurance mechanic a reasonable challenge?" I've put forward the notion that it isn't. It's excessive. It impacts virtually every aspect of the game and can't be sufficiently mitigated.


M.Enigma, Yes, the game can be quite fast paced, as long as you don't have to worry about your endurance running out. I haven't played WoW, Vanguard or Conan (or is that Camelot?), but in the games I have played, I haven't found endurance/power to be as onerous as it is here.


Biospark, I agree, it can be a difficult ledge to walk. It's my feeling we're teetering a bit more that we ought to where Endurance is concerned. Now, that certainly doesn't mean the game is doomed or anything. I'm just saying it could use a tweak.


Steel Shaman, adjusting the Rest mechanic would surely help, but only between fights. Endurance issues are more debilitating DURING fights.


Rush Bolt, the data you request was (to some degree) provided by the first 10 pages of this thread. As I pointed out, roughly 50% of the posters that made their opinions known at least in part agreed that the endurance mechanic was not fun. Now, that doesn't mean they're quitting over it, but it does imply a problem.
M.Enigma, are you comparing the CU and NGE to a tweak to endurance? I don't imagine it would be anything like that drastic.


If I didn't comment on your post, don't feel slighted. It probably means it's something I've commented on before or saw no reason to expand on.

Again, I'm really pleased to see the discussion moving in a more constructive direction!

I don't see why not, conceptually speaking. I mean, the Tanker class is meant to have an offense and a defense. Force Fields is a defensive set. I don't think it would work for Tankers as it's currently set up, power sets are not designed in such a way that they could be universal.

Ya, that link was posted earlier in this thread. While those are useful bandaids, I don't see them as fixing the underlying problems.

An untruth. I always begin from a position of respect. I never belittle anyone's opinion, even if it disagrees with mine. If someone disagrees with me, I may restate my position in an effort to convince them to agree, but I'll never dismiss them as "wrong."

You want an answer to that, it's easy. I'm not prepared to give up anything. WHat would be the point of making the game more fun by making endurance less onerous, only to make the game less fun again by taking something else away?

I did. I wanted to see if others wanted to have the impact of endurance on their fun to be reduced.

Right, that IS what I said - in a different thread. I reiterated it here when that other thread was referenced.

Not 90% of the time, but a lot of the time.

Quite true. However, I realize it's intended to balance things to some degree, and removing it entirely would be detrimental to the game in its current state. That's why I didn't suggest that.

I'm making a suggestion for the sake of everyone, and yes, that does include me. It's not supposed to?

No, unfun does not equal balanced. It does baffle me that the game would have anything designed into it that was intended to be not fun. That's not the same thing as balance, though.

Again, not what I said. I said the classes shouldn't suffer imbalances.

Not everyone has access to everything. Show me a Tanker with Energy Blasts or Force Fields. Show me a Scrapper with Super Strength.

Nope, I don't and never claimed to.

Nope, it does suggest that players aren't playing, though.

That's true, Defenders have other powers designed for defense (be it by way of debuff or buff). By the same token, Blasters have MORE offense to provide them with their variation of defense - defeat the enemy quickly so he doesn't get to attack you. It doesn't change that Defenders are spending more for their damage than Blasters.

I said I don't think that's the best way, but it would be acceptable. The best way would be to recalibrate things so everyone was on roughly the same level of performance. Simply increasing endurance across the board would allieviate some problems, but wouldn't change the discrepancies between the ATs.

Oh, I see. You're another one of those that knows my thoughts and feelings better than I do.

When did I say that? I said I wanted the game to have a more comic book feel to it. In THIS thread, I said I wanted the game to be more fun, by reducing the impact of a mechanic that many feel isn't fun.

Or are you trying to read my mind again (and failing again)?


Read the forum rules, accusing someone of being a troll is prohibited.

I won't speak for Johnny, but I have never made the implication you've suggested. My intentions have always been as I described above.


You're right, I can be stubborn. I'm not unreasonable, however. If it can be shown to me that an idea is bad, then I'll revise the idea or drop it entirely. I've done it before. However, I'm unlikely to just give up on an idea because people shout "YOU SUCK" endlessly.

I've actually done as you suggest in the past. For example, I started a thread once to suggest making ranged attacks available to Tankers (a variety of ways this might be done were suggested in the thread, including adding Energy Blast to Energy Melee or porting over Energy Assault), so you could have the Iron Man/Cyborg/etc. type characters that are tough, and can melee AND blast.

I try to keep my ideas within the realm of reason. I don't have the exprtise to know what is actually possible, but like to think I'm a fairly sensible fellow, so I try not to ask for the moon. Eventually, with enough tweaks and a few strategic additions, I think the game CAN capture that comic book feel. Not completely, perhaps, but enough.

Hope springs eternal, or I'd stop posting.

I do know JBs history. While I don't agree with all his ideas (for example, I think Tankers are generally fine damage-wise, they just need a tweak in presentation as I described above), I do agree with much of what he says in principle.

Either way, he has endured even more unjustified vilification than I have. I appreciate his support, and that of any that agree with me. I further appreciate any disagreement that is presented in a rational respectful manner.

He's not about to rehash years of discussion here, and you know it.

Besides, we're drifting off topic.