Ultimo_

I thought I stated the goals, but ok.

1. There's a lot of commentary about Tankers "needing" a damage buff. This would provide that.

2. I've seen it noted before that in the comics, the Tankers are often the heavy hitters that go toe to toe with the biggest guns the enemy has, giving as good as they get. In CoH, that's the AVs. However, Tankers really can't solo against an AV, their damage is far too low. Since this would be a buff to single target damage, this would help with this "problem."

3. Part of this is to maintain the Tanker's group role as not being called upon for damage. Since teams mean larger spawns, it means the Tanker's damage would be thinned out more, thereby maintaining group balance and dynamics.

4. Keeping the attention of the enemy might be best accomplished by smacking them around. Thus, AOE might have been considered the Tanker's forte. It wasn't done that way, but it was mentioned in this thread already, so I add it as a consideration.

For the sake of theme, I'd say the AOE should be limited to at most the 180 degrees in front of the Tanker (he's sweeping his attacks across several foes, but he can't reach all the way behind himself).


However, as I said, I'm not really serious about it, I'm just putting it out there for discussion. It's just an idea.

Yea, that's more or less right. The more foes he's facing, the less damage he would do.

In my example, if he was at the aggro cap of 17, he would only be doing 6 damage to each foe.

The trick would be to find a good starting point for damage output before division (ie single target damage) that would not step on Scrapper or Brute toes. This number would likely need to be higher than current for Tankers.

Of course, this would be a rather significant change to the class, and I don't really think it would happen. Just thinking out loud.

Here's a thought, just off the top of my head, perhaps lack of sleep talking, but here goes...

What if Tankers "spread" their damage (perhaps as a toggle)?

That is, they would get a damage buff (not too much, but noticable). Then, whenever they were in combat, any damage they do would be divided evenly among however many targets are in range.

Thus, fighting Lord Recluse one on one, the Tanker's KO Blow does 100 damage (say). However, if there are 4 targets in melee, that 100 damage would pread evenly between them, so if Recluse was accompanied by 3 summoned minions, each would take 25 damage.

That would do a couple of things. First, it would give Tankers a slight buff to damage. Second, it would make them somewhat more capable against AVs and the like (which also is more in keeping with how the comics seem to have it). Third, it would make Tankers the kings of AOE melee (albeit with low damage, since it would be forever being divided up).


Just the seed of an idea. I'll sleep on it, and see if it matures any...

Just to clarify my own position on this, since people seem to be confusing me with others here...


I do not think Tankers need any boost to damage. I wouldn't object to one, but I honestly think they perform just fine.

I think they should each have at least one ranged attack from their secondary pools.

I think certain sets (notably Super Strength) could use a cosmetic facelift, making them appear more powerful by use of debris, damage decaling and so on.

That's really about it.

Aett:
I don't think he's talking about the ranged attacks for tankers proposal from the beginning of the thread. It's wandered away from that a few times now. I believe he's on the mode damage for tankers bandwagon now (though I could be wrong, correct me if so).



The game is based on the comic book genre. Champions drew its inspiration from the same source. As it stands, the main source of comic books is Marvel and DC, therefore, the main source of inspiration is Marvel & DC.
They do draw a degree of inspiration from greek mythology, but it's nowhere near as direct an inspiration as from comics to CoH.

Oh, and to go on record with a simple mnemonic: Objective=Fact, Subjective=Opinion.

MOST of what is posted here, and particularly in this thread, is OPINION, ergo, subjective and NOT objective.

Dear god... Can it be that I'm in AGREEMENT with Electronite?!

I can die now, I've seen everything.

Have you ever actually READ anything JB has posted before flaming him? He's described his "special mechanic" many, many times.

Actually, McBoo, I think I responded to someone posting above you in quick reply, and it tacked your name on it. Sorry for the confusion.

What happened? I swear we lost a whole page. That's the second time this thread has been modded.

See, this is what irks me. People come in and derail the thread, and well thought out posts are lost when the mods take action.

I'd love a shape changer too. I don't know how they'd do it, considering they have alternate costumes, and now effects when changing them, I see nothing preventing alteration of the appearance of the character. The issue would be in the powers, and how to link certain powers to certain appearances.

The Kheldians have something like this now, I guess we're looking for something with a little more freedom.

I would have suggested that, but I figured there would be WAY more work involved and people would be against it for that reason.

Actually, I have several servers full of my own characters. I just chose a couple of servers on which to make some homage characters.

That said, the fact is I have more fun playing the homages than I have playing my own characters. Remember, the point is to have fun. If that's what works for me (or anyone else), then no one can tell us not to do it.

Indeed.

Though, it would still be nice to be able to make a Mace Scrapper...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Superman has super strength and invulnerability. That means he's a Tanker, since that's the only class that allows that combination.

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Superman... can also walk right up to a building... and keep walking.

Flight.

Superman... can also walk up to a mountain... and keep walking.

Flight again.

Superman... can start flying up... and just keep right on going until he gets to the moon.

Flight, though we have a ceiling he doesn't.

Superman... once he gets to the moon... can play soccer aiming for saturn's ring.

I find it funny that you were talking about superman and then talking about presentation... when the extreme majority of superman's "animations" are standing their absorbing bullets, or hitting a guy once and sending him flying a thousand feet...

Again, Power Thrust does this, and doesn't do much damage - in other words, you don't need high damage to present like super strength.

other than that he's pretty much tearing the environment apart (in an attempt to save, protect, catch) which isn't possible in an MMO. That to me is pretty poor animation.

In this regard, I agree completely. The environment should have been much more interactive. Unfortunately, that's something we can't change.

This is the problem. You can't pigeon hole super heroes into any game if you want literal translations. There will always be someone saying they aren't happy that their super hero isn't super enough. There have to be rules in a game, and if you can't accept that there are some limitations on powers then I'm not sure what game to advise you go play.

It feels like your suggesting that knockback is the only valid way to make a power feel super... and that I disagree with.

That's not what I'm saying, I just used that as an example. Other things that help (in the case of Super Strength, at least) would be the generation of rubble, damage decaling, screen shake and so on.

Personally I think the haymaker presentation is pretty great but again this goes back to taking two sets in a game... and comparing them over and over and over again to comics which cannot EVER be realized as well as some people want them to be in a game. No matter what the game developer does someone won't be happy.

Unfortunate but true. I do think they could have come closer though...


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Responses in colour!

Actually, yeah.

You're referring to KO Blow, though, and that's not one of the powers in the set that feels pretty weak. For that, refer to Jab, Punch and Haymaker. Hurl has been improved, but the rock still needs to be bigger. Hand Clap does no damage, but the knockback makes it feel strong. Of course Foot Stomp is nirvana. Rage is nice and all, but only adds to damage output, which doesn't change presentation at all.

You know, I've never really played Scrappers much, but I've been playing one recently. I've been making characters intended to be homages of the Avengers, and I've always done my Thor homage as a Tanker (for the hammer in the Mace set). I did make him as a Brute once (Stone/Elec).

Anyhow, I've recently made a new Thor homage (Seigurd, from Norse legend), and made him as a Scrapper. I have to say, I'm liking it immensely. He feels pretty darn tough, and he does good damage. He's more like Thor than any character I've made before (though the Brute wasn't bad).

The thing I've wondered is if they should make the weapon models avaialable to all the weapon sets. For example, I could make a Broadsword Scrapper, but use an Axe or Mace model instead of the sword. The actual power wouldn't change, just the model.

What do you think, would this be an idea people would get behind?


Also, how about auras for weapons? I don't know about PCs, as I've not reached that level yet, but I know the MA characters can't have auras on their weapons. Surely this has been suggested before?

Meh, I've never really thought Tankers needed more damage, I've only ever argued that they don't "seem" or "feel" powerful because of the way the powers are presented. I mean, Power Thrust "feels" more powerful than almost any Super Strength power, yet does almost no damage. It's all in the presentation.

Personally, I'd have designed the game a lot differently (which is very likely apparent by now), but it was the first of the genre. I'm looking forward to seeing the DCU and Champions games, but I don't expect I'll disappear from here entirely. I've invested too much time and thought to it.

And again you mistake style for substance.
No one has suggested anything about power level, only the depiction of the powers.


Superman has super strength and invulnerability. That means he's a Tanker, since that's the only class that allows that combination.

(I have to laugh at this thread, it's going just everywhere...)

An interesting thing, I was reading the JLA/Avengers crossover the other day.

Look at the JLA taking on Terminus. Superman didn't throw a single punch. He was flying around taking the hits for others. Seems rather Tanky to me. That's only one example, though, he's been doing that for decades.

See, now you're trying to make an argument where there isn't one. There's a name for that, but I'm not allowed to mention it here.

In terms of scale, sure. Superman doesn't qualify as a Tanker, he does way to much damage. You know as well as I that conceptually, that's exactly what he is.

Invulnerability, Super Strength, Flight, Laser Vision, heck, you could even tack Super Leap and Super Speed in there. Those are all Superman powers. Pretty close to all of them, in fact. Superman, is plainly a Tanker.

Now that you've sidestepped my comment rather than addressing it, let me return to it.

Conceptually and mechanically, I always thought Tankers should have been AOE melee specialists, and Scrappers ST melee specialists.

I've often thought that should have been the Tanker's thing. Tanker=aoe melee, Scrappers=single targets.

I mean, think about the comics, you usually see Superman or Wonder Man or the Thing smacking dozens of foes around with each punch. Add to that the mmo idea of having the Tanker crowd controlling, and it seems logical.

To answer a couple of things, I probably will use functional rooms since the decorative ones are just as expensive. I mean, why bother with them if I can get the functional ones?

I'm playing this group on Infinity, and I have a Justice Lague-based group on Justice (it seemed a natural choice).

Coalitions are fine, but the truth is, bases don't offer any funtions I really need. I can rez in the zone I'm in, so I don't generally need a medbay, I can travel via the trains, Pocket D and Ouroboros, so the teleporters are not really necessary, and there are Vaults and Wentworths that let me store stuff, so storage isn't usually an issue.

I really just wanted a base to have fun decorating it. Anything else is a luxury, really.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.



My plan was to build the base using decorative rooms (on the idea that they would be cheaper than the functional ones), and decorate it to my liking. There would be no complaints because my alts are the only members (theoretically). As the group gains prestige, I would gradually swap out decorative rooms with functional ones.

However, the decorative rooms are as expensive as the functional ones, often moreso!

It's just a little disappointing. It was something I had hoped to have some fun with. Now it looks as though I can't, for at least a couple of years (since I have several alts to work up, and tend to level slowly at the best of times).

Of course, I could invite other players, but no one would want to join a SG with no base, would they?

Don't misunderstand, I'm not shrugging off that idea (though, I won't have all heroes on the server, so they won't all go into the SG). I'm just saying that the costs are still rather unnecessarily high for rooms that don't DO anything.

Basically what I'm saying is that the active rooms (Control/Power/Medical/etc.) should continue to cost what they do now, but the purely decorative rooms should be much cheaper - on the order of ten times cheaper (if you ask me).

Man, it's as if they don't want anyone making bases. A MILLION Influence converts to 2000 prestige? You can't put in even ONE ROOM for that. That's a BANNER.

It's ridiculous. Bases should not be endgame content.