UberGuy
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Quote:It's achieving that on average. 3 PPM in a power with a 10s cycle time has a 50% chance to go off on every activation. In a power with a 5s cycle time, the same proc has a 25% chance to go off on every activation. Those are still random. They just work out to 3 activations per minute on average if you always fire those powers as fast as possible.Originally Posted by BrandX
Nothing random about "Will Proc 4 times a minute"
And it doesn't say it "will activate X times per minute". Here's the actual text present on PPM procs.
Emphasis mine.Quote:This effect will trigger roughly <PPM_Rate> times per minute. -
Quote:I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))Originally Posted by Jibikao
Not sure how this is going to affect Stalker's proc that much. The cap is 90% which is still very high and Stalker proc is the only one that you can't stack and has 10s restriction, so having even faster recharge on Assassin Strike doesn't make the proc happen more often.
Radius is zero, so...
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60
If you have "maxed" slotted recharge, such as from an ATO set, this comes out to...
(7.5+1.2) * 4 * 1.25 / 60 = 72.5% chance
That's for the non-Superior version. For the Superior it becomes...
(7.5+1.2) * 5 * 1.25 / 60 = 90% chance -
The calculations you refer to have already been upated. It is no longer based on total recharge, only enhanced. Edit: They also softened the AoE scale factor.
The calculation now looks like this:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Credit to Draeth Darkstar, who has that in his sig. -
Quote:Personally, I think that's a horrid solution. Catalysts are too infrequent for that, and it restricts PPM mechanics to people playing incarnate content. To take this approach at all reasonably, I think they would have to introduce a whole new kind of Catalyst beyond the one we have that drops more often from non-incarnate content.Originally Posted by William_Valence
If it's that the balance between regular IOs and Attuned IOs are different, you could make players able to attune regular IOs, make them a new tier of item, and make Catalysts useful. All in one fell swoop.
I prefer that they have one system.
I'm sorry, but I think this is silly. Practically any quality of life or power mechanics change they have ever made falls into this category. Anything they do other than add new powersets and critters is "for the sake of change".Quote:After PPMs take slotted recharge into consideration, it just feels like time invested in change for the sake of change and power creep. -
Quote:Possibly. Back before that change and before we knew about the impacts of Arcanatime, people used Shadow Punch in "buzz saw" builds that added lots of procs to SP. Then the activation time changed, and everyone that did that was sad about how it affected the performance on paper. Then we found out about Arcanatime, and found out that the buzz saw builds weren't as good in practice as they looked on paper.Originally Posted by Liquid
I think the main reason it didn't affect people as much, though, is that they had better attack chains than Caulderone and I do.
Even if you weren't doing a buzz saw build, the change wasn't as bad as it looked on paper, but it did worsen an already poor power. -
Quote:It depends on the attack. Min/max avoids low DPA attacks. Some powersets have good or even excellent DPA in their T1 attack. Ice Blast and Stone Melee come to mind. Many T1 attacks certainly do have absolutely crummy DPA, but this also makes them a poor place to put a proc.Originally Posted by Caulderone
I just don't understand it. Min-Max already avoids the Tier 1 attacks. It's not like Purple procs make these into Uber DPA or anything.
There's nothing inherently wrong with T1 attacks in the sense that many of them have reasonable damage per activation. What's wrong with most of them is that their animation time is too long for that damage, which (unfortunately) isn't something that was taken into serious consideration when most of the powersets were created. -
Quote:If I recall correctly, it wasn't a balance-driven change. It was about BaB normalizing/correcting the animation and activation times.Originally Posted by Liquid
I don't recall the exact reason for the change in animation time to Shadow Punch, but if it had to do with abusing procs, maybe they'll revisit it now that procs won't be able to be abused in that manner.
As an aside, and if I recall even more minutia about that particular change, I don't think it affected people as much as we all thought it did, because I think that all happened before the general populace knew about Arcanatime. -
Quote:Synapse has no reason and probably no way to know that.Originally Posted by BrandX
So Synapse, out of all those saying "Yes. I like your changes. Make the changes. Change what was bought because they were told WAI." how many of them actually bought the SBEs?
I did not buy any SBEs, proc or otherwise. However, I do have ATE sets on most of my 50s, including the procs. This change will noticeably reduce how well those perform. I did not pay (extra) money for them, on purpose. I assumed what has happened was possible. -
"Abuse" is not required. "Abuse" implies that someone is doing something like power-leveling with procs, or getting too many purple drops/hour. There is no "abuse" of those sorts involved. They have decided that SBE procs are too much better than standard IO ones.
On the one hand, I don't blame you for being annoyed, but on the other, you should never have bought anything from any MMO that you had no expectation could change, including being "nerfed". Only you can decide what that guiding principle means for any future purposes.
I don't approve of how they are handling thing like this. I do think another thread is a better place for it. -
I'm kind of fond of the suggestion that this observe up to around 100% recharge (from all sources) and then stop counting it against the proc rate. This seems like a decent approximation of the enhancement range most builds would see from enhancement (thanks to ED), avoids the somewhat degenerate build situation of people using only global recharge to bring powers back faster, and is probably somewhat gentler to people using Spiritual Alpha.
It is somewhat flawed, still, though. If you don't have a lot of recharge already, external buffs will still change your proc rates, up until you reach the ~100% cutoff.
Edit: No, the more I think about that part, the more I prefer the enhancement-only gig. People can control that on their own. Spiritual Alpha's interaction with this still kind of stinks in that regard, but I suspect there's nothing else that could be done. -
Quote:They don't like how it's working. They don't need a better reason than that. It's their game.Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Explain clearly why the old style is abusable. WHY is this change necessary.
Do I think they should spend more time thinking about that sort of thing and/or testing it before they put items out for sale? Absolutely. But they aren't required to have reasons we like for changing things. If they change things too much after they've sold them, they just convince lots of people it's dangerous to buy things. -
Quote:This seems silly to me. It's like claiming that we should not allow any more critical-style effects that work on AoEs, or that no future effects like Build Up or Aim should buff AoEs.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am going to guess that this behavior is unintended and will be reduced. There is, as far as I can tell, no good reason to buff AoEs from the flat chance procs. I'd much rather have a slight reduction in the AoE proc rate than any increase.
Procs are simply a limited critical. I don't see a reason to single them out as some attempt to balance AoEs in this game when, in the scope of effects that apply to AoE, they are possibly the least powerful in general.
They cannot change from flat rate to PPM without buffing procs in some AoEs, unless they do, in fact, nerf procs in AoEs period. It's inherent in the very point of using PPM mechanics that there will be powers where the proc chance to go off is higher. -
Quote:No one was complaining in the post you responded to. He was trying to use it as an example of a mechanic he hoped could be implemented.Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Then can I complain about how all the Judgement powers ignore Cardiac and resilience because none of them use intangibility?
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Quote:Nothing is final, but the current proposal was for an increase of 20-25% over current PPMs. That's 2.4 to 2.5 based on the current value of 2.Originally Posted by Cheetatron
are you using a current SBE for that 2.5 figure? I ask because the lockdown proc is currently only 2ppm do we know for certain that 15% will become 2.5 after roll out?
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Quote:Setting aside the cap, which seems imposed by a design imperative that has nothing to do with rate calculations, the impetus behind the change seems two-fold. (1) To make longer-cycling powers more attractive places to slot procs for reasons beyond getting a six-piece set bonus. (2) To slightly reduce the performance of high-chance procs in fast cycle time powers.Originally Posted by William_Valence
A PPM cap, and many of the raised PPMs mean it isn't a change attempting to normalize proc rates between powers with different cycle times. A 90% cap limits the proc rates in high cycle time powers, and really, the number of times powers could be cycled in a minute limited the proc capabilties of the powers.
It isn't that the Procs were overpowered, because in many cases the proc rates are going up. If a power that could cycle 5 times a minute was too much for a proc given 6PPMs, increasing all the proc rates, in powers that can cycle that many times in a minute without exceeding the 90% rate, doesn't make sense.
So it is explicitly a buff to some powers and a nerf to others, with the goal that most stuff in between the extremes won't change much. -
Quote:Context is important. I wasn't bemoaning the Spiritual situation. Someone was mentioning Spiritual as a possible example of a mechanic for distinguishing actual slotting from Spiritual's effect. (That seems highly unlikely to be shown by what they were pointing out, but it is the context in which MajorDecoy replied, and I replied to him.)Originally Posted by Vauluur
Yes, but for good reason. If the +recharge was not ignored then Spiritual would be the only Alpha worth slotting. The benefits of faster recharging Lore, Judgement, and Destiny would far outweigh whatever benefits the other Alpha powers might give you.
Did you know that in early betas of Incarnate powers, they did honor both global recharge and Spiritual Alpha? Player feedback was that this was whack. -
Quote:I think it's pretty obvious from context that he meant the +recharge part. And that part is ignored.Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Spiritual is not ignored by every incarnate power.
Rebirth gets a nice bonus from Spiritual.
Agility is not ignored by every incarnate power. Ageless and Barrier both get nice bonuses. Ionic Judgement also gets a bonus if you go the endurance drain route. -
Quote:That makes sense to me. I do something close to that a lot. I don't build for theme, per se, but I don't always choose the top-performing powerset combos. I choose something I want to play and eke out of it as much as I reasonably can.Originally Posted by Caulderone
I understand the oddness you perceive. I built the character into it's theme, and then eked every ounce of performance I could out of it. So, the theme came first, then I maxed it out.
Well, I'd advise at least waiting to see how it plays out in the end. Your total lost DPS, expressed as a percentage of your total, may not be that bad that it is worth abandoning your concept.Quote:It still falls well short, damage-wise, of what the powerset is capable of. And, now, it will fall further or abandon theme. -
Quote:To be fair, I don't think that's what happened. Based on things said in beta forums, they wanted to do this replacement of all procs with PPMs, but decided against it, at least partially because they recognized that they would be disrupting a lot of builds. (Happily, this discussion seems to be trending towards that disruption being smaller.) So they went instead for a more limited release. SBEs were apparently used as that opportunity.Originally Posted by Mystic_Fortune
I'm still on the 'wait and see' fence though, as I'm not a huge fan of in-game mechanics being changed long after they've been established simply because you folks introduced a more complex mechanic for the Paragon Market bought IOs what was making them 'pay-to-win' IOs.
As presented, it sounds like they were possibly content with keeping them separate, but a lot of threads were started about dissatisfaction with what were (and still are) often significantly superior procs being only available for sale. On the face of things, that seems to have spurred a more detailed investigation once more into how to replace all procs. -
Quote:I have to say that this statement confuses the tar out of me. Why are you agonizing over a change like this in a concept/theme build? Maybe it's just me, but that brings to mind the whole "casually purpled Warshade" shtick.Originally Posted by Caulderone
I new I took a damage hit using Dark Melee and not going for the uber chain (Sm-MG-Sm-SL). Guess I need to consider scrapping my concept/theme build and joining the min-max crowd.
I'm seriously not trying to make light of the unpleasantness that comes having something you've worked at building be changed downward in effectiveness, but I have a really hard time reconciling that feeling with concerns that you need to abandon a concept/theme character in order to go with a min/max one. -
Quote:However, it is a degree of enhancement that applies to all powers, whether you need/want it or not.Originally Posted by gameboy1234
"Effectively" does not mean "is." The alpha slot is effected by ED, so it's not actually global. It's effectively an additional enhancement.
Also, the part of it which ignores ED is functionally identical to a global enhancement increase in every way except for one: it does not apply to powers that cannot accept that type of enhancement. -
Quote:I have a sneaking suspicion we're going to be stuck with it, but Spiritual Alpha sadly straddles these paradigms. It's something I slot because it benefits certain powers highly, but I have no choice but to accept its bonus on every power (or at least those that accept recharge) whether I strictly need the bonus there or not.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Slotting is something you do. You have theoretically full control over it. And its *likely* someone isn't going to *slot* for far more recharge than they need for any particular power, separate from the actual slotting limits that exist. But global recharge is something you build for all your powers, even ones that don't need it, and recharge buffs are ally buffs that should, in the general case, not reduce your performance in noticeable ways.
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Quote:I assume you mean in powers below some cycle time threshold. I say that because the surely design intent has to be that PPM/SBE procs give greater benefit in longer cycle time powers. That's inherent in switching to something that gives any consideration of "events per minute".Originally Posted by Synapse
There will be cases where your performance will decrease. That is by design. Speaking of which, it was never the DESIGNED intent to have SBEs consistently grant a superior benefit than their IO counterpart.
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Quote:There's "working as designed" and "working as intended". Someone laid out a design that said 20% chance procs convert to 3 PPM SBE procs. According to that, PShifter was "working as designed".Originally Posted by Cheetatron
Wrong, that was rebalancing a proc that followed a the same formula it's peers had around autos making the current iteration an abberation
Unfortunately, what that actually did in practice was not "working as intended". Someone didn't catch that this design created EPS recovery performance well above not just the 20% chance version of PShifter (more than double) but also significantly better than the SBE version of Numina and Miracle. When it outperforms both the regular version and comparable things they're selling in the Paragon Market, that's a great candidate for asking "hmm, should it really be like that?" -
Quote:Totally understood. They do have a couple of faces now, though, that they also are being designed to target an (average) activation rate. The chance to activate is random but with a deterministic average, and 100% rate is technically a valid extreme in the proc's attempt to hit the target. But I get how hitting the PPM design target can violate another - that procs shouldn't always go off.Originally Posted by Synapse
Procs were originally designed as something that had a chance of happening. If they were ever intended to be a 100% chance to go trigger they would have been designed to do just that.