Tyger42

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I disagree wholeheartedly...

Once again you are proclaiming your understanding of things, as being the only way things are/must be.

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Try looking in the mirror.

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... but the "10 to 30 levels below the level that the enemies were designed for" IS fairly relevant.

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Makes 'em tougher, sure, but you get auto-SKed up in AE. Not perfect, but not that critical an issue. But, that's beside the point. I didn't bring it up because it wasn't one of the irrelevant parts.

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So you're saying something can't have a value if the government says so? I wanna make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

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No, I'm saying that something can't have government recognized and, thus, taxable value unless the transactions giving it value are legal.

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Two words: CONTRACT LAW. The EULA -IS- a legally binding contract.

[/ QUOTE ] Unless I've missed a concluded court case that didn't end in a out-of-court settlement... possibly.

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Several. Mythic vs Black Snow, Blizzard vs the makers of BNetD, Blizzard vs Peons4hire to name a few directly MMO-related. Specific terms of an EULA may be ruled unenforceable in court, but EULAs are -not- invalid. The terms that get thrown out would be thrown out in -any- form of contract.

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Just because the AE became popular for farming, doesn't mean the devs will accept that. If they could delete every single farming mission and feature from the AE without hurting storytelling content, they most likely would.

Do what you want, just don't assume you're being backed up.

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And neither should one assume they are being rebuffed...

The Devs ability in this game is absolute, to believe that they would if the could is a Red Herring...They can but they don't is a more accurate description of things as they are...

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"Could" would, in this case, be defined as being capable of doing so without losing far too many customers to be worthwhile.

The devs' ability in this game is NOT absolute. There are technological and practicality limitations on what they can and can't do. This would fall into the latter.

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Huh...probably a change that I didn't notice. I know it used to be the way I described, because I experimented with it to determine name length rules, but that was Back in the Day before they increased the character limit.

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No you didn't. It hasn't been possible for as long as the game's been live.

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Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.

[/ QUOTE ] I didn't realize the law had anything to do with value. I always figured value was determined by the market.

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The market isn't a legal one.

[/ QUOTE ] Thats fine and all, but that has nothing to do with value.

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When it comes to the government, it has everything to do with value.

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Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.

[/ QUOTE ] I didn't realize the law had anything to do with value. I always figured value was determined by the market.

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The market isn't a legal one.

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I just noticed this yesterday.When I try to reply to a question on the help channel I keep getting this.

Usage:h takes 0 args, you gave 3. Show help window h
Is the help channel broken and if so when did it happen?

Thx in advance. 1st.Son

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Pays to keep current on patch notes...

The difference is intent of the creator. Your description covers not only hundreds of "legit" AE missions, but also a good chunk of dev created missions as well. Being an open map with a lot of mobs doesn't automatically make it a farm mission...

If someone makes a mission specifically to be farmed, it will fit your description and much more. But your description covers pretty much any outdoor map.

Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.

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I just had to jump in on this one...And let me say it now...

This is IMHO, I have the flame retardant gloves on for the coming flame storm, so nothing you can type will hurt my posterior, including attacks against my typing and proof reading skills...

I have been playing the MA since it came out, I have done well over 500 different player made missions (yes I play that much and I very rarely step out of the MA now-a-days), and IMHO, 9 out of 10 missions I do are what I consider Farm type mission...Just so were all clear on what I consider "Farm Type" missions; Single open maps, large mobs, race track style fighting, throw a boss or twenty into the mix just for spice...

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You have way too liberal a definition of "farm type missions", then. There's a difference between a mission that CAN be farmed and one that was made specifically to be a farm.

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The character is not being sold. The character remains under the person's account. The character does not get moved from account to account. There is no transfer of the character to the RMTer, nor do they ever leave NCSoft's overall control. You are paying for the time they spend leveling it, as opposed to you leveling it.

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PLing service is a different animal. And it goes into several OTHER violations, not the least of which being explicitly unauthorized access to the servers. ( They are not permitted by PS to access the servers through ANOTHER CUSTOMER'S account. )

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Same with INF.

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RMTers don't use the buyer's account to farm the inf. They have accounts that they use to farm it themselves, then transfer it to the buyers.

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What part of this are you having trouble grasping? If a product is changing hands as part of the transaction, then that product is being sold.

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*The character does not get sold.* There is no product. You are paying them for the time taken for gaining X amount of INF.

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Again, there's a difference between PLing services and RMT character services.

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It doesn't matter if the service is -ALSO- part of the transaction. The kid that mows my lawn doesn't give me his lawnmower when he's done.

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The service is the entire transaction.

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*Headdesk* Forget it. You're just going to plug your ears and shout "LALALALALALALA!" no matter what I say. The inf is being transferred to the buyer. It's part of the transaction. Delude yourself all you want, I don't care anymore. You're clearly incredibly naive about how RMT works...

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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement.

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I work. I don't do piecework, selling individual items. I get paid for being at work 40 or more hours a week. Nothing that I do produces a physical object I can point to and say "I made that." I can, however, show the time I've spent talking to people, helping them, fixing things or whatnot.

I am getting paid for my time.

Ever get a car repaired, something installed in the house, etc? You're paying, among other things, for "labor" - the time for someone else to be there to perform a service.

Ever rent a movie?

Selling time spent is not BS.

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Yes, it is. Neither you nor the mechanic are getting paid for your time. You're getting paid for [u]WHAT YOU DO[u] during that time. You can bet your sweet bum that you wouldn't be getting paid if all you did was sit around on it and ignore the job you were supposed to be doing during that time. That directly proves that it's not your time you're getting paid for.

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Really?

Last job I had (doing contract work,) I got paid for *exactly that* over the weekend. While there'd be the occasional call in, I could bring movies in with me and watch them *all the way through,* browse the 'net, etc.

I just had to be available.

They paid me for *being there.*

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No, you got paid for doing work during that time when it was needed. You didn't ignore the job. When there was a call in, you took care of it. You were performing a service, even if that service didn't occupy the entire time you were there. "Being available" is a service.

You're paid hourly ( Monthly/weekly/whatever ) because time is the most convenient method of measuring the service. And that's all time is: A unit of measurement. I drive a truck. I get paid by the mile. The company isn't buying "my miles", they're buying me driving those miles.

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Also note when you go to a mechanic for repairs, you're also paying for the parts used in the repairs.

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... which you're charged separately for. You are still charged for labor.
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In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.

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The money is the merchandise. Just because you can earn it yourself doesn't change that. I can go to the river and catch fish myself, but that doesn't mean when I buy fish at the store it's not "merchandise".

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If you pay the neighbor kid to mow your lawn, what are you paying them for? Sure, a tiny bit of it goes for gas and what not, but you're paying them so YOU don't have to mow the lawn yourself. You are not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.

When you see some high school kids offering to wash your car and you decide to let them, are you paying for soap, water, etc.? The majority of it is for their time, for time YOU don't have to spend washing it. You're not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.

There are... I forget the term, I want to say concierge services, people who will take care of your chores and, in some cases, go shopping and such for you while you're at work. If you have one go out and buy gifts and such - yes, you pay for the gifts, but you also pay them for the time they take to do so. Time you didn't have to spend doing it. You're paying for a service.

When you pay to have your car parked (and brought to you) by a valet, are you paying for a parking space? Typically not. You're paying *them* to find the space and place your car there, and retrieve it so you don't have to wander around when you're done for the night. You're paying for a service (and I do not mean the tip.)

The INF is not the RMTers merchandise. The 50 (or whatever level you take them to) is not the merchandise. You're paying them for the service - for them spending THEIR time while you do something else.

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Show me which of your examples shows the customer getting something transferred to him as part of the service? The RMTers are transferring the inf or the character. Thus, it is being sold. What part of this are you having trouble grasping? If a product is changing hands as part of the transaction, then that product is being sold. It doesn't matter if the service is -ALSO- part of the transaction. The kid that mows my lawn doesn't give me his lawnmower when he's done.

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From the trademark aspect, they're even MORE explicitly in violation. They're using NC/PS's material for profit, and can -easily- be shown to be interfering with PS's legitimate customer base.

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This is the closest to a legitimate complaint I've seen that NC could take - but not because of trademark violations.

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But the trademark violations are -very- valid. Using someone else's trademarked material as part of your business without their authorization is flat-out illegal. And that's exactly what the RMTers are doing.

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ut they aren't selling influence. They're selling the time they spent (or that you don't have to spend) to *get* that amount of influence.

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The influence is being transferred, thus it is being sold. Sorry, but this is just as big a pile of BS as the people who list a pencil for $800 on EBay and say they're throwing in their WoW account as a "free bonus".

The influence is an integral part of the transaction. If the inf wasn't changing hands, the transaction wouldn't be taking place. A furniture crafter who makes a chair and sells it may be selling the service of making the chair, but he is ALSO selling the chair.

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Again - there's nothing *legal* to do with the EULA.

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Two words: CONTRACT LAW. The EULA -IS- a legally binding contract.

I still have no clue how "meow" came to be the name for it. Best I can figure is someone just picked it at random...

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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement.

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I work. I don't do piecework, selling individual items. I get paid for being at work 40 or more hours a week. Nothing that I do produces a physical object I can point to and say "I made that." I can, however, show the time I've spent talking to people, helping them, fixing things or whatnot.

I am getting paid for my time.

Ever get a car repaired, something installed in the house, etc? You're paying, among other things, for "labor" - the time for someone else to be there to perform a service.

Ever rent a movie?

Selling time spent is not BS.

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Yes, it is. Neither you nor the mechanic are getting paid for your time. You're getting paid for [u]WHAT YOU DO[u] during that time. You can bet your sweet bum that you wouldn't be getting paid if all you did was sit around on it and ignore the job you were supposed to be doing during that time. That directly proves that it's not your time you're getting paid for.

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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws

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Well, you know, except for all those pesky copyright and trademark laws...

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What trademark does selling in-game money for real world money violate? What copyright?

The RMTers are not selling "Cities of Heroes" using the COH engine, a pirate server, copyrighted characters, etc. They aren't actually *selling* anything but a "service." (You pay us for the time we spent getting these levels/this inf.)

Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.

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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement. When you go buy a pound of hamburger, you're not buying a pound, you're buying hamburger. Also, if the "merchandise" is transferred as part of the transaction, it is part of what is being sold.

So, glad to see you're gullible enough to think that these flimsy excuses would actually fly, but they don't.

[/ QUOTE ] Like he said, you are buying a service. When you go get your car fixed, at least half the bill is for labor. The labor price is usually based on time spent (or a flat rate based on the average time spent for that task).

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Point is, however, that labor isn't being performed by a mechanic in a building he rented where he was explicitly told he could not run a business out of the building, nor is the labor being performed using tools he borrowed from his neighbor who stipulated that they couldn't be used for his business. The "service" part of the transaction is being performed on someone else's private property against the terms set forth by the owner of that property. I'd go as far as to say an argument could be made at this point for trespassing.

Also note when you go to a mechanic for repairs, you're also paying for the parts used in the repairs.

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In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.

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The money is the merchandise. Just because you can earn it yourself doesn't change that. I can go to the river and catch fish myself, but that doesn't mean when I buy fish at the store it's not "merchandise".

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They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization...

[/ QUOTE ]They pay a subscription fee just like anybody else. That gives them the authorization.

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It gives them authorization to play the game. It does -NOT- give them authorization to farm currency ( usually abusing exploits to do so ) for the purpose of selling for cash. In fact, they are specifically prohibited from doing that before they even enter the door.

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...and even explicitly going against the terms of use to run a business. If you can't see how that's violating the laws, you're blind. Willfully or otherwise.

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Like you said, they break the ToS. All that does is give CoH the right to ban them without reimbursement because they broke the rules.. not any law.

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The TOU is setting forth how they are being licensed to use the intellectual property, as they are permitted to do under copyright law. Violating those terms is violating copyright law. Now, you can question whether the terms are valid all you want, but if they are held as valid in court, then they are in violation of copyright law as well as the TOU.

From the trademark aspect, they're even MORE explicitly in violation. They're using NC/PS's material for profit, and can -easily- be shown to be interfering with PS's legitimate customer base.

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I was unaware that this topic has been overplayed, my bad

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I was about to post something along the lines of "Not everyone has been here forever, some people may net realize that."

Then I say the OP's registration date.



[/ QUOTE ] Well.. the number of posts do indicate they might not frequent these forums, but it's not like we haven't heard about this on several occasions the past few weeks in Global channels as well as right in Broadcast chat... I'd say our is well founded. lol

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Even so, how could one who's been playing the game for any amount of time not realize that farming would be a heavily discussed topic?

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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws

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Well, you know, except for all those pesky copyright and trademark laws...

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What trademark does selling in-game money for real world money violate? What copyright?

The RMTers are not selling "Cities of Heroes" using the COH engine, a pirate server, copyrighted characters, etc. They aren't actually *selling* anything but a "service." (You pay us for the time we spent getting these levels/this inf.)

Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.

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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement. When you go buy a pound of hamburger, you're not buying a pound, you're buying hamburger. Also, if the "merchandise" is transferred as part of the transaction, it is part of what is being sold.

So, glad to see you're gullible enough to think that these flimsy excuses would actually fly, but they don't.

They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization and even explicitly going against the terms of use to run a business. If you can't see how that's violating the laws, you're blind. Willfully or otherwise.

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11. You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying or selling items for cash or trading items from one server to another.

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The Code of Conduct needs to be updated. Everyone using Wentworths and the Black Market needs to be punished for breaking the above rule otherwise.

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Well, sure, if you stretch the rule to ridiculous lengths....

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Perhaps they just don't want to reveal anything that may spoil content for other players.

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Yes, because "Get this exploration badge" is such a massive storyline spoiler... Where's the eyeroll emote when you need it?

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Fusion,

the TV is a contact ... go up to it, click on it and you'll get a dialogue box. If you'd like more info, feel free to PM me.

Geni

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Because it would be just silly to share the info publicly for others to benefit from. ( I already know, but there are surely others who don't. I don't include the info here because someone else already has. I just found the "PM me for info about how to do this" to be a bit trite. )

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So here I am, playing an MMO solo. That kinda stinks because the whole point of MMO is teaming up.

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No, the whole point of an MMO is to play in a game world where other people are playing as well. That doesn't require teaming with those people. However, their presence, whether you team with them or not, creates a gameplay dynamic that simply cannot be equaled in a single player game.

Oh, and the "no travel power"? Not relevant at all for AE missions.