Twigman

Originally Posted by Cathulhu

If I understand your suggestion...
A) A Channel/Tab would be created that the Gold Sellers would be allowed to advertise on.
B) Advertisement outside this channel would continue to remain as it is (Not Allowed/Banned)
c) Players would be able to choose to have the Advert Channel on or Off.

Now if this is your suggestion then unless you can solve the problems listed below it looks like it will fail.

1) From my understanding most people avoid repeated advertisements for the same general service. After just one day of this system what percentage of the players do you honestly think will keep a channel open that advertises Gold/PLing 24 hours a day? 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%?

2) Even if you limit the adverts to one per account per hour the Gold sellers will create multiple accounts and domain names to increase there exposure on the Advert Channel. After all if I advertise 6 times an hour under various websites/names and my competition with the same service and price advertises once an hour, I am likely to get 6 times the business. (This is a common practice in our local yellow pages for Locksmiths since 2-3 calls from a desperate locked out homeowner pays more then the cost of an extra advert and real service cost.) Pretty soon all the RMTers will be doing it and you wind up with 100's of adverts an hour from the same 20 companies. One week after this system is in place with 100's of Adds an hour on this Avdvert Channel what percentage of the players do you think listen to the Advert channel? 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%?


3) Since advertisers will spend thousands of dollars to reach less then 1% of a population, assuming you did not answer 100% to both questions 1 and 2 , Why would a RMT be foolish enough to NOT use a (Free to Play) FtP account costing $0 to spam the local/help channels, just as they currently are, so they can reach the 25%, 50%, 90% or 99% of the players who have turned off Advert Channel?

4a) If your answer is that the advertised RMTer would be banned/sanctioned, than what is to stop RMT #1 who wants to eliminate the competition from RMT#2 or a player who didn't like RMT#2 from setting up an FtP account and advertising RMT#2 thus getting them banned?

4b) If your answer is to punish all RMTers (Ex. "No one can use Advert Chanel for 1 hour because an advert in local was done in RMT#2's name!") for the actions of one, Then what is to stop a Griefer/Disgruntled player from setting up an FTP account and advertising a RMT# thus getting them ALL banned and leading right back to the current system? "Biggest CoH Grief ever for Epic Win!" Did I say that right

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

Okay. Just glad to hear that you understand that there is a difference. Reality can be a real <bleep> sometimes.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

Every time you respond to me, you make it very clear that you do not fully understand how serious things could get for the developers of CoH if they allowed those companies to do business within their game.

You keep talking about gold selling being legal or illegal, but that isn't the issue at all.

The fact of the matter is it isn't about whether goldselling is illegal or just against the ToS of the MMos involved. It's about the fact that a number of the RMT sites are KNOWN to engage in credit card fraud. Now, you may be unaware of this, but credit card fraud is a serious and very punishable crime if you are caught doing it.

If the developers said "Go ahead and sell stuff in our game", they are willingly and knowingly enabling people in a foreign country to commit credit card fraud against their own customers.

The Internet Crime Division of the FBI takes a very serious stance on things like that. As far as they (and US law in general) are concerned, allowing the goldsellers to do business unopposed makes Paragon Studios just as responsible for any credit card fraud that occurs.

Since they can't go after the goldsellers themselves, they are left with the choice to A) Do nothing and allow the crimes to occur unchecked, or B) go after the responsible party they CAN go after....namely, Paragon Studios. Now, since this is the FBI we're talking about here, which option do you think they'll choose?

It is a situation that, at bare minimum, will lead to the game being shut down for being the tool through which the fraud occurred. It also has the very real possibility of the developers being sent to prison for it.

For the record, this is NOT me just making crap up to try and prove you wrong. This is what can, and more than likely WILL happen if the devs decide that goldsellers should be allowed to do business within the game that THEY own.

Originally Posted by Colonel-Confederate

When they ever get around to putting this game on a console system like a PS3, Xbox for example then we could get this. Saint's Row, Driver and some of the others have it where you steal vehicles in game and then can customize them.

So yea my Colonel Confederate would love to ride around on a Confederate Hellcat ,but it isn't gonna happen unless they stick this game on a console system like how DC Online is. Haven't played it because no system. With how they went Free to Play. It's surprising that they don't consider sticking this on a Playstation, Xbox or Nintendo and have us VIP's pay for special content and privileges. Like a Need For Speed Underground styled content for racing each others vehicles, or see who runs faster, or flys faster through an obstacle course.

Potential is there for vehicles ,but not on the PC system I don't think.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

No it isn't, since the devs have gone on record saying that if they were to add such a feature they would specifically block us from being able to send invites to our own characters.

There's a world of difference between them saying "If we do this you won't be able to do "x"."

and, "We aren't going to do this because we don't want you to do "x"."

Originally Posted by Celestial Might

Interesting thread, just thinking about what attracts gold farmers. I guess they figured theres a need for a lot of influence. Only feature in this game that requires a lot of influence is the market.

So, lets look at the market and make steps to decrease its impact on the game ala account bound items. This would of course require access to all IO related content for all players, but then they could somehow earn it.

Now you wouldnt need money to make the world go round, just need to play the game.

Something like that anyway...

Originally Posted by Hopeling

You've stated that these "good" sites exist several times, but I have no reason to believe that's true. Yes, theoretically, there might be non-scammer sites out there, but that isn't borne out by my experience in-game where almost all of the advertising comes from the same 1-2 sites, the ads for which read like spam email. The burden of proof lies with you here. Do you have ANY reason for thinking these sites exist, other than "You cannot directly prove they don't?"

(I'm not trying to bait you into sharing your personal experience with such a site, if you have it. That would not be a wise thing for you to do.)

Besides that, even if such sites exist and do business without harming players, games already exist that sell all kinds of stuff for real money (on a level of "pay-to-win" far beyond what we currently have). They're reasonably popular, in their own niche, but reviled by most players I've spoken to. If CoH goes too far down that path, I will leave, and I know I am not alone in thinking such.

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn

It's not an incorrect analogy. There have been studies done where people have said that they would rob a bank if it wasn't illegal. Basically, the only thing stopping a decent amount of people from robbing banks is the fact that it's illegal. The same has been done for some recreational drugs, with similar results.

As such, removing the ban-worthyness of using goldfarmers means that it is very likely that more people would use them. This would in turn mean that there is more influence in the game just by virtue of having more goldfarmers doing nothing but trying to earn influence and selling it. And this would drive up prices for everyone, meaning that more and more people would believe that the only way to compete is to buy gold, such that they either leave or begin to use the services themselves.


But this is a fairly pointless discussion, because even if the Devs did consider doing this, they'd have their whole legal team shouting back at them telling them that they can't do this, and that they HAVE to take the position that it's against the TOS. I'm sorry if you think that's wrong, but it's really not. It is in the best interest of NCSoft, Paragon Studios, you and me to have the use of goldfarmers be against the TOS and EULA.

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn

And why would they? Copyrights need to be protected. If NCSoft were to say that one aspect of its game is free-use, then what's to stop other people from coming in and saying that other parts of it should be free-use as well?

Additionally, if the act of credit card fraud is illegal (which it is), and the Devs know exactly how people will exploit their game to enable credit card fraud, then why would the parent company allow for that act to happen?

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

More to the point, and explanation of exactly why gold sellers will never be welcomed by the developers of the games they peddle their "wares" in:

I guarantee you that the Internet Crime Division of the FBI is aware of exactly how much credit card fraud is perpetrated by these companies on a daily basis. But, since the physical location of he person committing the crime is outside their jursidiction, there is nothing they can do about it.

Now, if Paragon Studios took leave of their senses and said "Sure! Go ahead and sell stuff in our game!", what happens next?

It does not take a rocket surgeon (or law student) to figure that out.

Since the companies selling the stuff in the game are known to the IC Division of the FBI to be committing credit card fraud, suddenly Paragon Studios is willingly and knowingly enabling them to commit a crime. That makes them an accessory to credit card fraud on a massive scale. Since Paragon Studios is physically located in Northern California, they DO fall into the IC Division's jurisdiction, who will probably jump at the chance to punish someone for all this crime they are helpless to stop.

End result? The FBI forcibly shuts down the servers the very next day pending a full investigation. Knowing how long those things take, it is likely NCSoft will cut their losses and leave them shut down for good. Additionally, it is also possible that our favorite dev team will spend some time in jail, possibly a significant amount if it can be proved that they were knowingly engaging in credit card fraud.

Not good for the game in any instance. Even if the FBI allows them to bring the servers back up, how many people are going to trust them with their credit card information from that point forward?

So, in spite of how "harmless" you keep claiming it is, allowing these companies to operate in the game stands a very good chance of killing the game, practically immediately.

Why do you think the online sale of in-game items is prohibited by the ToS of every single MMO on the market that caters to an American playerbase? The scenario I just gave you is exactly why.

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn

This isn't alcohol or drugs we're talking about.

This is like telling someone that robbing banks is fine, just frowned upon and the government isn't responsible for what the bank does.

OF COURSE more people would rob banks if they weren't afraid of the police.


Also, allowing people to violate copyright laws gets you to the point of companies not wanting to make products. That's why those laws exist, to allow the companies to feel safe that they can make a profit off of them.

I don't think you fully understand the consequences of what you're asking for. It would likely have some of the effects that you say, and then have far more negative repercussions.

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn

---snip---

Goldfarmers break the law by selling someone else's intellectual property without their permission. That is illegal, and if they were doing it from anywhere but China, they'd be prosecuted. But China chooses not to follow international law in these matters.

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn

I bet you that if Ebay and Craiglist were made aware of scammers on their sites, despite them warning people about scammers in general, that if they didn't do anything to stop those people, they would be held liable.

That is why EBay and Craiglist both ban accounts that they know to be scamming people or doing things that are against the TOS. Similarly, CoH could get in trouble if they did not do anything to prevent known criminal activity in their game. And that is what this is, whatever you choose to call it.
----snip----

Originally Posted by Texas Justice

Shenanigans.

I've logged in to Facebook from various states without a problem.

I've not seen Facebook use any location tracking system that locks me out of my account.

Shenanigans.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

I would bet a week's pay that the "good experiences" you refer to are simply cases where the company hasn't sold that credit card number YET.

It's just common sense to wait before you start screwing with someone's credit card. If they used it to purchase in-game items from you, chances are they've used it on other online purchases. If you wait 6 months or a year before you sell the number, they will be much less able to pinpoint who ripped them off, because they will have used that card dozens of times since then.

NCSoft allowing RMT sellers to do business in their games is essentially telling their customers "We don't care if you get ripped off and thrown into a mountain of debt you can't do anything about"

Not the best business policy.

Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos

I personally have witnessed a friends account taken over.

One day I was chatting with a in game aquaintence when they suddenly logged out. I assumed an emergency or a DC. We had been at the talos tram so I walked over to WW to do some browsing.

A few minutes later I saw them log back in. With in another minute I was hit by a gold spam and thought thats odd that global handle looks awefully familiar. Sure enough it was my friends global.

I saw them standing by the tram and walked up to say high and whats up.

They immediatly logged out. A bit later I got an email from an unknown account, saying it was my friend on a new alt account they just made after mysteriously losing access to thier own.

I told them what I had seen and we both filed reports. However they never got back control of thier account, and soon after left the game.

Eventually they admitted to me they had purchased influence from a gold seller site and thier norton anti virus took weeks to wipe out all the trojans and keyloggers it imbedded in thier system.

Personally I just dont see the need. even a brand new player once they learn the ropes can earn enough to decently IO out and in time even buy the purples they may crave to feel equal to the old timers.

Although I have seen some MMO experiment with legal trading. It usually hasnt shown much success at garnering support. Vanguard specifically comes to mind.

Just remember kids true heroes dont buy thier way to the top. Batman might have billions but that isnt what made him mighty.

Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos

well I myself hav3e always thought a few MM sets based on in game villain groups would be cool. Maybe a carnival MM, plenty of ladies in thier groups. Or a vahzilok MM. Female eidelons are scary and sexy no two ways about it.

Id play an MM if there was more sets inline with game lore. the ones we have are just too generic for me to be honest. I really dig the incarnate lore pets because of that and am working on collecting them all personally.

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn

Allowing goldsellers to be "okay" would ruin the in-game economy except for those people who used it. It would potentially flood the game with influence, allow the gold sellers to easily manipulate the market, and fill the game with spam.

Yeah, it's not just the credit card use that is bad here.

Also, if the game said that these services are legal, and only warns people that they might get ripped off, I'm sure that lawyers will find a way to say that NCSoft and Paragon Studios would be complicit in any lawsuits that would occur if someone's information got stolen. And since it's very tough to go after Chinese citizens with this kind of lawsuit, finding a U.S. or South Korean company complicit would make things a lot easier for lawyers and people who were too stupid to realize what they were doing was dumb.

However, if NCSoft and Paragon Studios says that these activities are explicitly forbidden in game, and takes steps to ban accounts that use them/that are gold sellers, they cannot be considered complicit in the activities.


So they're not going to change their stance for good reason.

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn

International and Domestic copyright laws cover this, especially new ones that cover media in the digital age.