The_SiXKillA

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But you're telling me I'm going to cause death to my team-mates which would make me a bad player..


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If I am a healing type defender (ie empath), and someone gets hit hard by a boss, and ends up with 10% health, I look away from the actual battle, to look at the power-tray to position my mouse-pointer on the appropriate button then click the mouse. The likelyhood that this blapper (because you know it is one) is dying in the time that takes, is pretty big. but compare that to moving one finger 2cm to directly execute the heal on the correct team member. because of using the keyboard to execute the heal, I've been able to select the correct member with the mouse through the team tab. I could even have selected the team member with the F keys (but like I said, I haven't got this down to a science.) This is all because in a game as fast as CoH 1/10th of a second counts.

And the ingenious part is that you don't have to use ONLY the w finger to press the numbers, you can use the ring finger, or index-finger or in some rare cases your THUMB. It's the most flexible system you can use with a keyboard and mouse combination.
And for a Blapper, it's especially important to be quick. (at least for an en/en blapper, because of their knockback, you ALWAYS have to be on the move.)
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Maybe you're just not good enough at the game to play without key-binds?

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I thought of that, and it made me think of my friends that (still) use the "point and click" method. These are experienced gamers, also in MMORPG, but still I'm amazed at how slow and inefficient they are. And this is people who has spent most their lives in front of a mouse and keyboard.

*sigh* I think I'm able to stop arguing, but who am I kidding?

Okay, so I realize the optimum method might not be working for people with no apparent dexterity in their fingers. I'll stop now, because this discussion is just as stalemate as the one for and gainst mouse-look.

To bubble_bug, you didn't think I meant several higher -than 50- level toons? hmm?

EDIT:
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I click everything and have never done any different. If you think I don't play this game as well as you because of that, you're sadly mistaken.

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I'm not saying I -am- a better player than you, because I'm not saying I got it down to a science. Again, how do you KNOW that? I just might. I don't know, and you don't either.
In any case, I was talking of game method, not players.

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It's down to personal choice. Personally I happily levelled to 50 twice using the click method,

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Have you even tried using the number keyes?

And EVERYTING isn't down to personal preferance. I remember way back in the day, when mouselook was introduced in FPS games. For a couple months there were huuuge discussions about what was best between keyboard look and mouse look, and a surprisingly large number of people kept saying "It's all a matter of opinion and personal preferance". But still -everyone- "converted" to mouse look within the year.

I think the reason ppl got the Mouse Look feature so quick was due to Computer Parties (or whatever it's called in english), where ppl with different play styles actually meet and observe each other, and adapt the more efficient play style.

But using wasd + the numbers buttons IS more efficient than using arrow buttons and clicking the power-slots. And I don't just say this because it's the way I play, it's because I've tried most MMORPG games, and I've tried most play-styles, and this is without a doubt the fastest way to play under the current GUI setup (that's used in every single mmo game out there, with the dubious exception of EvE Online, but that's a completely different game in any case)

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Erm, I've been playing since the second day of the US launch, and I still use my mouse to click on certain powers. I tend to arrange my 'critical' powers on the 1-5 keys and the slightly less important but still time-sensitive powers on the 1-5 slots of the second tray. I use the keyboard for those, but for almost everything else I use the mouse.

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Of course you have to use the mouse -some-, because of the unimaginative way every MMO is laid out, and the demand from the playerbases for ever more powers/abilities. But not knowing the number keys has this funktion and have to ask about it on the boards is... well... I'll refrain from saying it.

I myself only use keys 1 through 6 and the alt 1-6 combination, but that's mainly because I have a split type keyboard and numbers 7-0 is about 5 meters away from my left-hand fingers.

And I'm not saying people who only click-activate powers are -bad- players. I'm saying they are ineffective. It's the difference between using a lorry to haul furniture as opposed to... say... a Ferrari. In the sports car you can go very very fast, but can only load one piece at a time, whereas in a lorry the whole load goes in one trip.

Sorry to the OP for my previous post, but there's nothing speaking FOR mouse clicking powers to activate them. Unless of course you like having to concentrate on both where you move your toon AND the exact position of your mouse pointer, for every time you want to execute a power. I know I pour out powers constantly in combat, and I keep moving -all the time-. I couldn't play even remotely as effectively if I hadn't made use of the number keys. And you want to be effective, right? Or am I the only one who wants to perform in a good way for my team? If I solo, it's a matter of survival; with a blapper's low hp, fumbling even once can mean faceplanting and a quick trip to heaven and then the hosp.

The more I consider this, the more I want to withdraw the apology made earlier in this post, because clicking every power not only can, but will in some cases, cause death to yourself or team-members.

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Uhmm.....
I think I haven't explained myself well enough:
Do you click the melee attacks on the Tray to use them or do you have any other key with a bind?

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I'm sorry, but you have two level 50s and several higher level toons, and STILL you CLICK your power-tray? hmmm.
I almost got annoyed when my newbie friend was doing this. Each power slot in the tray has the corresponding key number written on it. how hard can it be?
Maybe the click-on-power works if your character is a Charles Xavier ripoff but without the powers, but for any Hero/Villain with a tad of self dignity, it's just s l o w.

Sorry for being a bit aggressive here, but lvling a couple 50's should teach you a good way to play, but obviously not. Makes you wonder really, what's the world coming to?

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well in sirens i only get integration, as, buildup n 2 other attacks, so get found and i'll go BOINK anywho XD

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I know I have trouble Finding you, and a WHOLE lot more trouble Boinking you.. ehe.. well.. who'd want that, right?
Anyway, those very very few times I actually DO see you, you disappear around a corner, and is lost to me yet again. I don't think my nick has -EVER- been in your defeat list, while you've defeated me more times than I can remember.

Edit: Oh wait. there was once I got a sorely missed kill, but I can't remember if it was you or D'M.

Well. Many a villain using Teleport Foe on my en/en has felt PRETTY stupid when they suddenly lie face down in the mud after about 7 seconds of blasting luuv, so I'll say there are way too many newbies (don't confuse with n00bs) who blindly follow half[censored] PvP suggestions from the boards. Only once have I been teleported and died as a direct consequence, and that was due to a drone.
But personally, I haven't had such a big problem with TP foe. of all the time spent in Sirens, I think I've been tp'ed 4-5 times. maybe I'm not on in the most tp-foe-heavy hours?

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I don't mind stormies being immune to AS. But they're immune to ALL meele classes.

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And only controllers and defenders have an advantage against stalkers. What's your point?

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I hate to compare to WoW, but I will... WoW had a similar problem with "roof snipers". People would jump onto the roofs of buildings in towns and start to shoot others, and the town guards would do nothing against them. Smart? Perhaps. Tactics? Why, yes.

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Since, in wow, it's not commonly possible to reach rooftops except a few places, it's my belief that this "tactic" wasn't intended by the devs, and thus an exploit. I'm pretty sure however, that the cox devs designed the containers and trash bins specifically to allow them to be used in combat. or else they'd have put lids on them. But this is just my 2 cents.

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A similar situation IMHO happens when you get TPed and thrown into a bus stop.

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I believe this could also be done in doorways, window sills, Air condition ducts on roofs and probably 1800 other places.

And villains have just the same chance of teamplay as the heroes. But they can't use the same "group composition" as heroes to be optimal.

I used to have an issue with the Stalker AT. And I whined about it on the boards. Now that I know it's my AT that's got a weakness to stalkers, I don't whine (so much) anymore and instead try to beat them on their own premises. My currently biggest issue with pvp, is the sheer number of stalkers pvp'ing. but this will even out, or so I'm told.

As for stormies being 'immune' to AS just my previous situation turned somewhat around. Stalkers are very good against nearly every other AT powerset combination, but have a weakness to storimes (from what I've gathered). But the problem a storm troller/defender faces is their lack of proper damage. I was in a team with a stormy and some other ppl a little while ago, and we were fighting a similar group of villains. While I was fighting my own target I noticed a brute in a bus stop with full health, and I concluded that he was stuck so I didn't attack him after I was done with my target. Then the stormie called out to me along these lines "Sarge! Please get this Brute because I can't hold him much longer!" So I launch into attackmode.
Now, the brute had almost full health untill I started attacking him, but the stormie had been on him for at least a minute, maybe more, and during that time the stormie was VERY voulnerable to attacks from other villains. And the brute had probably a bunch of rage built up, so when/if the stormie couldn't hold him anymore the brute would have painted the asphalt red with the stormies head. It's all about balance, not between each AT, but balanced with TEAMS in mind. That no villains came to the aid of the brute was just proof of the villains lack of solidarity to each other.
The brute however started bashing me on Broadcast because I defeated him while he was being held by the stormie. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't teamplay what teams is all about? The stormie didn't have any chance of taking down the brute by himself (or herself) and I probably wouldn't either, but it was a team vs team ruckus and in my mind we're supposed to complement eachother.

And using the geography for tactics isn't an exploit, it's SMART. Whoever heard a military commander go "Oh nooo. we can't use those trees to hide in before the ambush. that's not FAIR to our enemy." I even use containers and boxes and whatever can give me an edge when I play PvE.

TP'ing people into a place where you can't get out because of GAME MECHANICS though, is a completely different matter.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but it is a point that for PvP to be completely fair it is almost required that there is enough players on both sides to make decently large teams. 5-6 players on each side is almost a minimum to get a fair fight. Even then it's a lot to do with group composition. What it seems the devs hasn't thought of when designing PvP in CoX is that there rarely is enough players to support the playstyle the devs are aiming for. They've made PvP the way they WANT it to be instead of facing facts, and that's the issue with too many game devs these days.

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okay fine, stalker are unbeatable,

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No one said they were unbeatable. Only that they have an unfair advantage, if they chose to use it, in that they can stack hide and stealth/invis, and against any powerset combo's without holds they have a much too easy time running away. As a blaster I have no way of getting away from a stalker that AS -> plactate -> crit, because by then I'm dead. most likely I'm dead before: -> plactate. you see?
Now, I'm not a fan of running away. If a person I'm fighting (not including one-hit stalkers) is about to defeat me, it's likely it's because A) I've made a mistake, B) He's a better PvP'er than me or C) He managed to surprise me. In all of these cases he deserves the rep he'll get for defeating me. I don't care, I had a good fight, and it's not like I'm penalized for dying by the hands of a player. I like to think of myself as a good sport.. Untill, for example, I'm in a fair fight, my health drops under 75%, and a stalker coincidentally comes by and AS me. And this happens A LOT. A WHOLE LOT in fact. It happens so often that I'm seriously beginning to doubt it's a coincidence at all. What I think is that these guys are looking for players in battle, and take the hero out so they won't be in any danger of retaliation. there is at least 4 stalkers on defiant I KNOW are doing this, because I've never been killed by them unless I'm in combat with other villains. And (this is completely true) it happens more often than not!
And since they have hide+stealth/invis and I'm a lowly blaster with */en, there's no way in Heck(TM) that I'll find him again to have my revenge. This is my reality almost every time I move into sirens. Much of this is because the stalker AT promotes a cowardly playstyle, and most people are, in fact, cowards. So naturally we are going to see a lot of stalkers untill there has been implemented something that makes people commit a bit of soulsearching before chosing to play them.

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My blaster has tactics and TD(devices) and I can see any stalker

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The key word in that sentence is TD[targeting drone].

To QiSnake (and if you are tired of stalker-talk, ignore this post)

I fully agree with you, problem is, theres so many people playing stalkers, and so many villains writing on this board it's very very tough going to even hint that the stalker is a bit overpowered. People are just not able to listen to other peoples experienses.
As far as I've understood Blasters are the AT that gets the smallest perception bonus from Tactics, and they are also the squishiest AT which means most stalkers can get by undetected combined with one-hit-kill almost every time AS hits. This in my opinion is brutally unfair, but the stalker-population (which outnumber me on this board 7 to 1) disagrees. Because they have SUCH a hard time(note the sarcasm), given that 10% of heroes can see them coming.
But the stalker problem wouldn't really be a problem if:
1: There weren't such an obscenely huge amount of them.
2: The majority of the players playing them weren't cowards, and gang up against solo heroes or small groups.
3: Everyone had the option to sacrifice some usefull skills in order to be able to raise their perception.

I did say Stalkers are overpowered, but I didn't in fact mean that. I mean that most hero AT's are -underpowered- in comparison to the stalker AT. But this is the case with EVERY "rogue" class in every MMO with PvP gameplay. This discussion was all over the wow boards when I played that stupid game, and the rogues there wasn't half as powerfull as stalkers are.

But the people playing stalkers will never agree to anything, since they are of the opinion that they should be totally safe from harm no matter what the heroes care to throw at them as long as they are hidden. Their argument usually goes something like this: "Whats the point of having a stalker AT if they shouldn't be able to be completely hidden at all times and be totally safe unless we attack first with an attack that kills you instantly?"
Hmm. Talk about wanting lock, stock and both smoking barrels... I'm sorry to be the one to say this, but only children want the whole pie for themselves without the ability to share.
I know I've come up with tons of solutions that IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER ruins the stalker AT, but of course they are flaming me all the way.

Edit: I realize I come off a bit strong here, and should explain that I don't mean ALL stalkers are cowardly gank-happy people. It's just that even the most mediocre player gets a VERY easy PvP experience just by chosing the stalker AT.

I'll agree with Synaesthetix on this one. The sheer amount of health regeneration in the /regen set will be dificult to counter. If the scrapper doesn't have any acc slotted in his attacks you might last long enough to take him, but don't bet on it. /regen are survival experts, and unless you can beat him before his regenerative clickies recharge, your going to be there for a long long time.

Edit: I don't have any numbers to back this up, and only experience with en/en blaster, so take this with a pinch of salt.

I'm totally hearing you on the AS thing. Being a successful stalker demands a lot less from the player than a successful corruptor or dominator, and A LOT less than a successful PvP MM. I think this might be the reason the stalker/any-other-villain-AT ratio is something like 3/1.

What can be done to make pvp more skill based though, is beyond me. I'd like to see a combination between fps and rpg, but that only works if there is nothing but ranged attacks. (how do you perform a roundhouse kick or a firesword circle in FPS mode? ) but if it had been possible, it had been great! (also if someone could build me a quantum computer, thad'd be awesome too. )

Had to be the other day, when zooming through Sirens with my en/en blaster I find a lone corruptor opening pressies, I follow him (her?) to the next pressie and then unleashed my worst.
We had a kind of fair fight, when I notice a shadow standing next to me (stalker obviously), I target the stalker and power push, or whatever it's called, being on auto, I manage to pound him 10 meters back before his AS hits. I turned back to the Corruptor to continue the fight, get in a couple more attacks before the stalker is back. The knockback punch executes again and the stalker is sent flying. This happens once more before I defeat the corruptor, then I turn on the stalker and proceed to wipe the floor with him. Priceless.

Anytime I manage to defeat a stalker that is either trying to AS me, or has just AS'ed me is the funniest pvp moment for me. That dang cowardly AT deserves every bit of ridicule it can get.

Edit: Also when I had two stalkers try to gank me, and I ended up defeating one and chase the other back to the villain base. I seriously laughed out loud and did a little jig after that.

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Ah but the use of travel powers is a valid tactic, and if zones prevented them (like to see the IC rationale for that), a lot of us would need free respecs

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Don't see why you'd need a respec if some pvp zones disabled travel powers. (Unless you are a stalker that relies on Hide/One-Shot AS/TP away like a little girl if it don't one-shot-kill)

And I'm playing probably the squishiest AT in the game as a blaster. We don't have significantly more hp than stalkers (maybe not even marginally more) and we don't have 1/8th of a stalkers defensive powers.

I can't really see PvP in a multiplayer RPG being more skillbased than knowing what the class you are fighting are voulnerable to. If you want pure skill, I agree with Hobo, find a multiplayer FPS, but this isn't total disregard to the OP.

Hunting stalkers is already dificult enough with their plactate to implement Line Of Sight Targeting.

Something I think would help a lot though, is smaller pvp zones that disables travel powers.
I'm going to draw on personal experience, because that's all I know. But last night I was in Sirens, and the Hero/Villain ratio was close to 1/1 with around 14/18 players in the zone. The difference this time to most days (I've been there) was that most the fighting were done on the ground without Travel Powers, and this was an amazing change. not only was the combat VERY fast paced, but it was very very important to know your Powersets, compared to travelling combat where you hit the attack, wait 2 minutes to get in range, the attack executes, rinse and repeat.
Last night I saw stalkers take on regen scrappers without backing off (no idea how it played out because I was busy fighting a Dominator and a stalker (and win)). I got killed more times than I've ever been, but still my rep rose about 30 points, and most of the time I wasn't even teamed. It was an awesome evening.

Normally in Sirens, it's a whole bunch of confused headless running around, either because you are chasing someone who's running, or you are running away from an angry mob of enemies yourself.

I know I had the most fun I've ever had in PvP last night, and I'm pretty sure most the other ppl in there felt about the same way, because no one left for a very long time, and it was so close I'm sure no one was ever 'in the lead'.
Most of this I'm sure was because the sides were so evenly mixed, but I know for my part that a lot of the reason it was so much fun was because I hardly ever had to use travel powers while fighting. (another thing this will do is to make fights last longer as you don't have the end drain of for example fly or SJ or SS.

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The debt thing is more to do with their role in a team, when you get down to the crunch, Blasters are one of the last ATs that people will heal as they are the least important in a team and attract death to them like flys to dung.

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I've been in teams with 1 tank, 1 emp and many (4-5) blasters where we've plowed our way through missions like John Deer, without any deaths. I've been on teams with a decent mix of AT's and been killed lots of times.

But anyway, I'll join in on the parade. I don't ever notice Defiance, other than after being AS'ed. Getting something useful would be more like getting a new power, than replacing one.

Seems like every pvp team I get on is not actually teams. It's 8 individuals with private chat.
Does anyone ever have teams where some form of strategy or tactics are involved?
I mean on peak hours when there's a lot of ppl there.

Or am I the only one that feels team-pvp in sirens get a bit chaotic?

Ah. sorry. my bad. long(ish) time ago, and non-stick-memory.

I'm actively using my Disorient attacks, even though some person here told me they sucks, because that's the only 'mezz' I got. Problem here is that most brutes and as far as I've understood all stalkers have protection against these things. And I've -never- been able to disorient either a stalker or a brute. it happens every now and then vs. corruptors, mm's and dominators though.

Would be nice, if they decide to keep the toggle-dropping the way it is, if there was some clearly visible note for both 'attacker' and 'defender' as to when this happens. not WHICH toggle is dropped, but that it's happened. If by some cruel twist of fate, this already happens by way of a note in the chat-box, I'm sorry.

What if the brute is good? it's a two-way consideration. But with my tank, who has almost all resistance powers and all of them slotted with 4 damage reduction SO's, it still took only two AS'es to ground his face in the concrete. and it took less than a second from the first to the second AS.

Edit: and 5-10 seconds is more than enough to run away.

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What about two Blasters vs a Brute? Good PvP Blasters would probably kill the Brute in the same ammount of time it takes two Stalkers to kill a Tank, thanks to faster animation times.

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I can with 100% certainty say this comment is wrong. 2 AS'es takes one second to die from. 2 blasters happily blasting away at a brute will in -almost- all cases last longer than 10 seconds. if only because the brute has time to run and hide, something the tank don't have the luxury of.

1 tank shouldn't be able to take out 2 stalkers, but 2 stalkers shouldn't be able to take out a TANK in one attack each. 2 of any AT should be able to take out 1 other player, that's a no brainer. Steven Segall can take out 100's of "npc's" in his movies, but give him two other Steven's to take out and I guarantee he's going face down in the gutter.

I was in a team, and my point was that a damage resistance slotted tank should be able to take more than two hits from any AT, as the tank is the most damage resiliant AT there is in the whole game.

On some brutes, of course I do, but on the (I guess) best slotted ones I don't. And even though a brute has focused on damage resistance, after a pounding series of attacks their damage does rise to almost blaster proportions.

But as my tank has as much damage resistance as ED allowes and two stalkers can still kill him with ONE attack each, and the said tank can't even dent ONE of the attackers, I find this a bit unbalanced. The tank wouldn't be able to kill a stalker that's not fighting back, because of the focus on resistance instead of damage.

You are somewhat right here Knives, but as so many other villains so love to complain about. The SO's haven't started flourishing yet. And as En/En blaster, I have defeated and BEEN defeated by every AT I've met in Sirens. Some I've defeated more often and vise versa (or however you spell it). Like stalkers having faceplanted me plenty, and I've taken down a fair share of MM's. PvP is -pretty- well balanced for TEAMS of PvPers. but as is more often the case, solo pvpers have more trouble against specific AT's, on both sides.

And that Blasters can one-shot stalkers, corruptors and dominators when they have full defiance bar is COMPLETELY fair (but also not completely true, two-shot from full hp is more often the case). Note that full defiance bar is ONE SHOT away from being defeated. Also, blasters are (said to be) the nr. 1 damage dealer for the Heroes, I've seen stalkers limp away from a full series of blasts. Even with BuildUp I'm pretty sure I can't two shot a stalker with my two most powerful attacks. And that's complete with 3 SO's in each of the attacks.
In PvE however, it's a completely different story, but that's not the issue here.

And Brutes have a SO much easier life in PvP than tanks. if you'r a tank slotted for damage resistance, like my Inv/Fire tank, you STILL can't take more than two AS's, and the first one has taken maybe 2/3's of the hp. which is STUPID, since they are the AT who should be able to take most of a beating. "So you punctured one of my lungs. I got another one, I don't [cencored] need it!"
That's stalker VS tank, the most damaging villain vs. the most damage resiliant hero.
Now look at blaster VS brute.
With the majority of slots on my en/en blaster in damage, I can take maybe 1/4th - 1/3rd of a good brutes health in one attack series with buildup. At this point, many brutes I've fought have ran away (like villains too often do), but most of the ones that's stayed to fight me have beaten me into a pulp. Because the next attack series I unleash without BU will take maybe 25% of the brutes -remaining- health. That's 4 attack series to kill him, without him using respite or dull pain or a gift of life if he's lucky. (I'll admit that these are brutes that are 30+, but so is my Tank.)

What I don't understand much of, is why so many villains complain about being so underpowered compared to heroes, when this so clearly is not the case. Some of Paragons AT's are more powerful than villains, and some of Rogue Isles AT's are more powerful than heroes.

It seems to me that the Devs have a WAY too narrow and specialized view of each of the AT's and they way THEY feel they should be played.
What I'd like to see is a more flexible system for how the AT's are played, but that's never gonna happen, because it's the dev's that's.. uh.. dev'ing the game.

I know I'm going to be told I'm a lousy pvp'er now, but the more gloating and self confident you are when you come to fight me, the the easier it will be to take you down.