The_MESS

actually thats not true praf they could come out and give a definitive answer.

what they cant do is discuse in depth what is within the agreement.

As to the giving it away i was working from a article that was talking about the release of CoH ill see if i can track it down again if any ones interested

I did kind of think the same but figured i would suggest a possible solution any ways (part of my be less negative approach to life)

Very good i'm glad were able to keep things civil and ill repeat again as some seem to have difficulty reading

There is as far as im aware no official word on weather or not off line or stand alone costume creator could be released for city of heroes people who state there is are assuming this based on the fact that there was a limited costume creator released in Korea (also i believe there was one given away at some of the conventions)but this same costume creator was not released out side of Korea.

but i repeat there has not been a official statement from NC soft stating that those assumptions are true.

As to the original topic of this post

I think its a good idea and it has some posabilites marketed correctly it could act as good "hook" to real in new players. also i believe its something that the current player base would receive well especially if costumes could be saved and then loaded into the full game

if such i thing could be stand alone or would perhaps have to have some form of limited server side support for costume updates etc i don't know as I'm no programmer

could it be some kind of summon?

like a pet but once summoned not attached to any one player?

Which part says they cant?

For all we know the costume creator was part of the Korean marketing program

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For one if marvel had *** to bar NCsoft from releasing a offline or standalone creator they would have aimed to do so globally

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They may have aimed to do so globally, but since such a ban would be impossible under Korean law. there is nothing Marvel could do about it, short of invading Korea.

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Sorry i didn't realize that you were a expert in Korean law i shall bow to your greater knowledge on this point


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laws between the US and UK and the hole of the EU for that matter.

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There are agreements in place between the EU and the US, and some harmonisation. No such agreements exist with Korea.


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yes theres some harmonization but theres not that much and if memory serves correctly the laws differ on some very key points also since the entire issue of intellectual property and creator owned material is currently under revision it could all change

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Even if NCsoft were foolish anuff

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Not foolish. As already pointed out, there are comercial reasons why releasing an off line costume creator would not be a good for buisiness. And if the choice is btween agreeing to not release an off line costume editor and paying another vast sum to lawyers/Marvel/risk having the game shut down, then it would be foolish not to make such an agreement.


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one example of why it may not be financially available was pointed out however it turn that round and it could be used as a hook to draw in more subscribers its all about marketing and i don't think i ever suggested it should be free to non subscribers?

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i very much doubt that the agreement is air tight such things can be over turned (assuming its even a legal agreement)


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Sure, it could be overturned, after paying your lawyers another vast sum of money.

You would rather have an off line character generator than issues 13, 14 and 15?

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all in all this is still all based of assumptions we have no idea what is in the marvel / ncsoft-cryptic agreement we have no idea if that agreement still stands after the change in IP ownership

My point still stands until a Dev gives a definet yes or no to the possibility its still a valid suggestion as we have no way of knowing for sure weather or not the Devs can or cannot release some form of costume designer/creator

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(btw, apocalypse is created by both god and ancient technology, nothing about that in your list)

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If were talking Marvels apocalypse then your wrong Apocalypse was/is a mutant (and claims to be the first) his basic powers are from his mutation as is his weird skin tone and facial tattoos his powers were then further enhanced using technology belonging to the Celestials

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2) They agreed not to release an off line version of thier costume creator.

We know this, because when the game was released in Korea, they did release an off line version of the costume creator (the agreement wouldn't be binding in Korea). And they where very very quick to stamp on anyone who imported the Korean version, and quite quickly withdrew it when it became apparent they wouldn't be able to keep it in Korea.


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Sorry, but you seemed to miss/ignore this bit.

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Nope i never

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For one if marvel had *** to bar NCsoft from releasing a offline or standalone creator they would have aimed to do so globally not just limit it to the US and EU, it could be argue that Korean laws regarding IP differ but then so do those laws between the US and UK and the hole of the EU for that matter. So i would doubt that they would go to the trouble of blocking it across the US and EU and then stop at Korea.

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As to the stamping on thats actually covered in prafs first point which i agree with NC soft and cryptic (at the time) have to be seen to enforce there own guidlines there for if it was aghest the EULA to distrabute the costume creatore without NCsoft/cryptics consent which it likely was as thats a pretty standared clause in such things they had to take action i wouldnt be suprised if there wasn't some penalty if they didn't in a similar way that the holder of IP (or it could be copy right minds a bit hazy) looses there rights to there own material if they dont defend it.

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No.

For those who don't remember, when CoH first launched, Marvel attempted to sue Cryptic over infringment of interlectual property. basically they didn't want people using the costume editor to create copies of Marvel characters, online or offline.

The case was eventually settled out of court (with both sides having paid lots of money to lawyers). The terms of the settlement are confidential (this is normal) so there is no transcript.

However there are a couple of things it is possible to deduce about the terms.

1) NCSoft agreed to rigerously enforce the EULA with regard to rip of names and costumes.

2) They agreed not to release an off line version of thier costume creator.

We know this, because when the game was released in Korea, they did release an off line version of the costume creator (the agreement wouldn't be binding in Korea). And they where very very quick to stamp on anyone who imported the Korean version, and quite quickly withdrew it when it became apparent they wouldn't be able to keep it in Korea.

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While yes i would say NCsoft and cryptic agreed to enforce the EULA there is nothing to suggest that they agreed not to release a stand alone costume creator.

For one if marvel had *** to bar NCsoft from releasing a offline or standalone creator they would have aimed to do so globally not just limit it to the US and EU, it could be argue that Korean laws regarding IP differ but then so do those laws between the US and UK and the hole of the EU for that matter. So i would doubt that they would go to the trouble of blocking it across the US and EU and then stop at Korea.

Even if NCsoft were foolish anuff to agree to never releasing a costume creator i very much doubt that the agreement is air tight such things can be over turned (assuming its even a legal agreement)

all in all until some one in the knowe comes along and says we signed X and so can never ever ever do a standalone character creator and the agreement is completely and utterly air tight and legally binding all we can do is assume things based on very little concrete information.

Isn't that where those stupid license agreement things come in saying things along the lines of "by clicking yes i agree not to infringe on IP not owned by me" or my fav "I agree by opening this box i will not use the parts to make explosives" (who new cysco switches could do so many things)

Also out of curiosity dose a transcript exist on the net of the cryptic / marvel lawsuit

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What part of "not alowed to" "part of a legally binding agreement" is so difficult to understand.

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The Question is what dose the legally binding agreement actually preclude them from doing? also dose the agreement even exist any more could it have been rendered null and void with the change in ownership of IP?

also with the likes of heromachine all ready out there and pretty well established and the fact that marvel has not a (as far as I'm aware) taken action aghenst them could they not show that marvel dosen't have ground to block the release of a CoH hero creator?

Tho they could follow the Spore example and have a partial costume creator which is free to download and a full version that could be purchased for a small fee.

The problem would be how to handle capes auras and veat reward/TF stuff i suppose they could some how link the creator to your game account and so you could only play about with the costume parts you already had available

Since the brawl animation changes Dependant on weather you have blades or claws out or in i cant see why they couldn't extend this to other powers.

As to weather it would be a worth while investment of dev time i would say yes it would as it adds a more dynamic style to the combat which IMO increase fun

Painful is some what of a understatment i got one to 15 and just couldnt face it any more

im not sure where people get the idea that a MM is defenseless without pets because there not even without pets they have a a few all be it week attackes and a entire secondary to draw on and can easily take 2 or 3 minions without pets. but what MM is without pets (yes i know there are blasterminds out there but there a special case) having any pet out even without upgrades increases your ability to do damage and survive incoming damage

As others have said just summoning all your pets as you male your way to the first spawn will increase your hit points thanks to body guard then while your team mates begin the attake you can throw out some debuffs and upgrade your pets while in turn your pets will protect you and open fire on anything the should attake you

Remember you don't have to upgrade all your pets at the same time upgrade the most appropriate pet first if your on a team and needing damage upgrade your damage dealer if your gona need enhanced survivability then upgrade your buffer/debuffer

As im no programmer im not gona comment on how difficult or not it would like to point out is all those that say its pointless and a waist of dev time.

Is it any more of a waist of time than say implementing new costume pieces or wings or jet boots or the ability to change the color of global txt

Its also worth mentioning that looking into it may just unlock other possabilites in the same way looking at shields gave us weapon customization something that up till then had been considered neer imposable

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*snip*[*]Heavy Metal
*snip*

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YOU LIE!

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IT MAKES NO SENSE, MAN! If I wanted to listen to music like that, I'd throw my Gibson down the stairs.

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I'm with FG on this one.

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What that he should throe his Gibson down the stairs? seems a bit extreem to me

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I really don't see why people are getting so uptight over a little QoL suggestion. Some people want it, some people don't. I can't see any sensible reason why not, personally, but it seems to be getting all blown WAY out of proportion!

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I know why.

Simply they don't want to encounter the situation where the amazoness they are cybering with turns into a large hairy Russian man called Vladimik

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See this is the only reason i can see how it would brake some people "imersion" and personaly i can see nothing wrong with that

sudden image of toon A chatting up Toon B and then toon be turning into said russion and utering the line "hows about now stud"

Lost ninja managed to put it much better than me this thread should be about the ability to change character models at icon (or somewhere) and not all the other unrelated stuff that keeps getting dredged up

It seems a great many of you are confusing the issue and I suspect your doing so for your own gains

Mystique was stated by me as a example of a hero (or villain) who could change shape from female to male and vice versa, its her thing she dose it but if you've read any of the stories where she's played more than just a generic villain you would realise shape shifting is only part of her character she is also a accomplished martial artist sniper and all round assassin and can operate more than adequately without the need to resort to shifting shape. she is also more than likely bisexual (omg a character in a comic aimed at young people that’s bisexual quick call some one) what’s all this got to do with CoH and changing from male to female body types not a lot only the first part matters its a power and not all powers have to have some in game advantage they can just be powers.

Look at it this way if the devs were to introduce a new range of movement types so instead of running every where you could walk or hover (not fly just hover at normal movement speed no rising slowly into the air) or tunnel under the ground these would have absolutely zero effect on game play nothing nada.

Same goes for FX customisation of powers Zero effect on game play changes nothing a green fire ball dose the same damage as a red fire ball as a rainbow coulerd fire ball but people want it

Why do they want it because it adds to there character it further defines there character just like having wings dose or rocket boot or picking face number 7 from the many options available

and that’s what swapping between male female and huge body types will bring those who want to do a "not hulk" can do one they can have puny human form and hulking great monster form those who want to have a body jumping parasite can have there body jumping parasite all it is, is another layer of character customisation and lets not forget character customisation is CoHV big thing its the one thing it dos better than every other MMO I’ve come across and I suspect every other MMO out there period there for anything that improves the lvl of customisation can only be a good thing

All those who say "its a bad idea cause it doesn’t make sense" or "its a bad idea because it encourages Transgenderism" or some other such nonsense should go have a long hard think about why there really objecting to this suggestion and while there at it go read some comics and watch kids hero based cartoons and superhero movies and come back and give a convincing argument as to why form changing doesn’t makes sense in a comic book d based game.

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they first made spiderman, later on you got spiderwoman...in the same suet
also, if you look at camelion he uses shapeshifting and sex change fir getting in and out of highly securitive places without any problem, only with a spider sense like spiderman it's possible to sense him, but even then you first need to find him.

o and yes, there is absolutely no argument if not doing it.
there is lately a pretty simple thing in the MMO world, don't like it?, don't use it.

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It breaks immersion for some people.
It's all fine and dandy to say, "Don't like it? Don't use it.", but I sure hope our team of developers does'nt think like that, and I highly doubt that they do, or they'd lose alot of subscribers very fast.

Don't even think of saying, "there's no argument for why it should'nt be implemented", because you're wrong. And what you're saying is completely different, Spiderman and Spiderwoman are two different people, he didn't get his reproductive organs changed.

It would just (in my opinion), be far too strange.

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Say what? it brakes immersion thats the lamest argument aghenst yet.

how is changing from male to female, female to male, etc any difrent from switching from a robot to a winged deamon?

dose it go somthin like oh god i cant play amy more cause that hot chick i was playing with has sudely transformed into a hulking great warebeast?

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I'm against this, it'd make the game too bizarre.


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You're playing a game where people can fly, teleport, fire energy beams from their hands, turn invisible, and perform moves like Head Splitter without actually killing the target.

And you think changing sex is too bizarre?

There's a HUGE number of quite valid reasons for being able to do this, most of which have been mentioned already. It doesn't hurt anyone, so why not?

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You're telling me, if Superman, or Spiderman got his bits swapped, and started sporting a pair of breasts, you WOULD'NT find that odd? Or bizarre?

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Well yes it would be a tad bizzar but then its no more bizzae than them chucking cars about and wall crawling

the badge and contacts thing could even be a non issue it could work that your original "sex" is your refered to sex so even if you were useing a female costume if you had for your first costume slot picked a male body type NPC and Badges would still refer to you as male

Think of it like Mystique weather she wares a female form or a male form she's allways refered to as a "she"

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I'm against this, it'd make the game too bizarre.
If you want a female toon, roll a female toon.
If you want a male toon, roll a male toon.
If you want a huge toon, roll a huge toon.

I suppose Male -> Huge would'nt be so bad, but City of Transvestites would just be odd. I'm not against the concept in real life, but CoX, after all, is not real life.

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Well done you have spotted the flaw in this request this is a game not real life

Oh but wait its a game based on the superhero ger and some of those superheroes can change sex at will others in certin surcumstances the point is this has nothing to do with being a transexual (in the real world meaning) and everything to do with charichter X having the ability for whatever reason to shift from one shape (female) to another (male) to maybe even another shape (huge)

Within the game there are a 101 reasons why the charichter can change form/shape/sex and they need not have anything to do with with the chharichter being transexual a few examples

the charichter is a parasitic life form that needs host to function however hosts burn out quickly so it moves from one to the other useing them up as it go's along

the charichter is a alien and in its natural state is asexual however to fit in with humans it adopts a ether a male or female persona and can even change be tween them

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That's CoV, CoH is 12 in the EU (and rated Teen in the US).

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actually its 16+ pluss for both as since the release of the good Vs Evil pack they no longer exist as indevidual games

Indevidual packs you see in the shops or online are stock left over from when they were indevidual games