The_Foo

Come ON, Devs, even Cambios agrees this doesn't make sense! He complained that daily maintenance was happening too often, and it's not even happening *daily*!

(No real offense intended, Cambios.)

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Defensor used a shield, too. He was one of those lame-o "non-US-centric" heroes they whipped up to compete in the Infinity Gems game between Thanos and The Gamemaster. Props to me for useless knowledge. (If I remember the comic correctly, and this is going back a loooong time now... I think She Hulk (in her FF4 days) was on Defensor's team with 2 other heroes... and they were opposed by a team with Daredevil and 3 other heroes. DD ended up winning that piece of the golden globe with a well timed billy-club/cable throw to lasso it at the last second.
[Good Lord... I'm sad...]

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You're like half right. It was the Contest of Champions and did not involve Thanos or the Infinity gems. And you combined two different fights. Daredevil was in the arctic battle. She-Hulk was indeed with Defensor in the Old West town. It came down between her and Iron Man for the globe and Iron Man got it.

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Dude, Iron Man hax.


Also: I hear shield, I think Captain America, and he doesn't really fit into the supposed Tanker mold. Ironically, he does fit into the high-defenses/medium damage category, but he's clearly not a Superman/Colossus type, which Tankers are meant to be.

That's kinda weird, actually.

I think the concerns regarding Granite are worth mention, for sure, I just don't think that there's as direct a method to illustrate the impact there.

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Maybe I'm missing something here... but isn't 5% pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things?

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yes, it is . . . but the pickings are currently slim for the DOOOOOOOOOM Patrol.

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This is not the doom patrol. This is the "hey, this doesn't make sense, please explain" patrol.

Also, if 5% DEF were really so trivial, why did the Devs cut Hover, Combat Jumping, and a slew of other powers that offered such "trivial" DEF in their rebalance as well?

Are the Devs the doom patrol as well?

Feel free to mischaracterise the intents and questions of others if it helps your world view, though.

1. radiohead - Rhinestone Cowboy
2. U2 - The Fly (Lounge Mix)
3. Passengers - Your Blue Room
4. Esthero - Heaven Sent
5. Elvis Presley - You've Lost That Loving Feeling (live)
6. Nelly Furtado - I Feel You
7. Spike - Rest In Peace (Buffy the Vampire Slayer musical episode soundtrack)
8. radiohead - Punchdrunk
9. U2 live in Toronto - Even Better Than The Real Thing (live)
10. Blue Rodeo - Lost Together

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I think the majority cares more about why the debuff IS here at all. In issue 3 the debuff was reduced from -20% to -5% beucase they removed Rooting. Then in issue 5 they completely gutted the base 20% res to all but psi and left the -5% Debuff. (actually raised it for awhile ... <shifty eyes&gt

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IIRC the debuff didn't even exist before Issue 3. it was added as payment for the removal of the rooted effect. In fact, it was bugged as hell on test at first, right? it was something like a 50% debuff instead of 5%.

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Correct.

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First off I do not think the 50% debuff was a mistake at all. If you look at where the 5 key and zero key are on the keyboard it is kind of hard to make that kind of typing error when coding it. Secondly had we not complained about so bad then we would be argueing now on whether the debuff should be 50% or 37.5% for scrapper/brutes. Lastly if the brute rep wont give us a clear cut answer as to why there still is a debuff given the power is gutted now more than ever we need to go to someone else. I say we give _castle_ an overload of pms on this subject he would respond to our cries for help hopefully. Also while you guys are at it be sure to mention things on knockback penalty that dark armor, fire armor, and ninjutsu have. Those powers are out of balance considering the minor benefits they give now as well. Like how dark can no longer cap psi, for fire burn does not work anymore for anyone without someone holding the mobs and how fear protection wont work when longbow bosses summon spectral terrors that are +12 to the casters level and they double stack cloak of fear and terrify with spectral terror.

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It's easy to make an error coding 50 or 5.0, though.

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Gorrila is correct on the math and does make a good point. However, I really think this is arguing over the unimporant details. We don't really care why the debuff is what it is. I think the majority cares more about why the debuff IS here at all. In issue 3 the debuff was reduced from -20% to -5% beucase they removed Rooting. Then in issue 5 they completely gutted the base 20% res to all but psi and left the -5% Debuff. (actually raised it for awhile ... <shifty eyes&gt


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Incorrect.

Here's how Scrappers/Brutes are supposedly balanced: the Tanker version of powers are basically considered the base value. Scrappers/Brutes are meant to have a certain percentage of Tanker effectiveness. (The old rule was Tankers did 80% of Scrapper damage while Scrappers had 80% of Tanker defenses.)

So, simple math problem which seems to be eluding certain people here is: If I have 10 + (-5), what is 75% of this value? Is it 3.75 or, uh... 1.25?

Solve the equation and show your work, please.

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I think the majority cares more about why the debuff IS here at all. In issue 3 the debuff was reduced from -20% to -5% beucase they removed Rooting. Then in issue 5 they completely gutted the base 20% res to all but psi and left the -5% Debuff. (actually raised it for awhile ... <shifty eyes&gt

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IIRC the debuff didn't even exist before Issue 3. it was added as payment for the removal of the rooted effect. In fact, it was bugged as hell on test at first, right? it was something like a 50% debuff instead of 5%.

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Correct.

By the way, Jonyu, I do want to thank you for responding, despite the fact that I find your answer entirely baseless from a logic standpoint and underwhelming.

I'm glad you've made yourself available for dialogue.

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3)be patient, keep grinding. Once you get invincibility, you'll probably forget all about this problem

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I have Invincibility, and it's very much not the point.

If I come and steal five bucks from your wallet every week, is it okay because you'll make more money later?

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A Tankers job is do soak up damage so they get a bonus to their resistances. Scrappers and Brutes make up for this by dealing more damage.

How can you complain that Brutes have to wait 8 more levels to get an inferior version of Unyielding when they're getting powers like Knockout Blow at level 8 compared to a Tanker at level 20?

Powers are balanced by the grand scheme of the archetype, not via individual powers so it's not fair to compare power for power versus the various archetypes. Brutes are more than fine as they are.

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I'm more interested in the unscaling debuff than the level difference, honestly, though I included it for the sake of completeness.

It sounds to me like these powers are very arbitrarily decided upon.

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How it is balanced

Tanks defense

Brutes scrappers offense.

Tanker vs Brute

Brute has fury... this makes a big difference in dmg out put.

Thus a brute can kill an opponet faster then a tank, so in a very real way they have a defense through offense ... a dead mob cannot do dmg.

In a mob of 10 my brute will kill 3 mobs when tank kills 2.

I will kill 8 mobs due to fury by the time a tank can kill 5.

This means a tank is taking a reduced dmg from 3 mobs where I am taking 0 dmg thus 100% resist becuase mobs are dead.

Apply this to stalkers too.

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Isn't *that* particular balancing equation (defense vs damage) already done by the fact that Brutes and Scrappers get 75% of Tankers Def & Res?

Are you saying that the devs are *intentionally* trying to further reduce S/B defenses by giving them a proportionally higher def debuff in UY? A "you guys are so good we're going to kick you again!" prize?

LOL. I guess it's *possible*, though the reasoning strikes me as a bit...convoluted. Wouldn't a simpler solution be to just up Tanker damage or reduce the % of res and def that scraps and brutes get to say, 70%?

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No because the point is not to make everyone the same... but balanced in different.

A tank should not = a brute should not = a scrapper


A tank has best defense worst dmg
Brute avg defense avg dmg
scrapper wost defense (with hp) highest dmg


See this is balanced, and created diversity.


Look at balance like a 4 and 8 balance to a 6

not that it has to be two 6's to = 6



Also if we get 75% of there defense


this would mean we would get 75% of their defense and resist.

Just think of it as our defense is 75% as effective.

If it were balanced to the point

-5% for tanks

and - 6.25 % for scrappers and brutes.


Becuase -6.5 is 75% as effective as - 5 on a negative scale.

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You can't just point to arbitrary deficiencies or strengths and indicate they're balance factors.

For example: "Brute has fury... this makes a big difference in dmg out put."
Brutes' Fury is evenly applied across all defensive sets. You don't get DEF debuff for having Fury. They're not connected. Fury is balanced against Scrapper and Tank damage output and that's it, otherwise /Dark, /EA, /Fire and /Stone would need similar balancing factors.

Fury lets you kill faster, so that damage mitigation is represented in the lower HP, as it is for Scrappers.

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Also if we get 75% of there defense


this would mean we would get 75% of their defense and resist.

Just think of it as our defense is 75% as effective.

If it were balanced to the point

-5% for tanks

and - 6.25 % for scrappers and brutes.


Becuase -6.5 is 75% as effective as - 5 on a negative scale.

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Exactly my point. Either Tankers should have a higher debuff (which would be just as absurd, considering it was added at a time when Tankers had 20% base RES from Unyielding), or Scrappers/Brutes should have a lower debuff.

Or, more sensibly, the whole debuff thing should just be stricken from the power.

Yes, he's quite good, though not as available as Castle tends to be.

I challenge Jonyu to prove me wrong!

First, a little background info:Read this, please.

Now let's think for a minute...

A Tanker gets Unyielding at level 8 and is granted:
- 5% S/L RES
- 10% F/C/En/Neg/Tox RES
- mez protection
- 5% DEF debuff

A Brute/Scrapper gets Unyielding at level 16, and is granted:
- 3.75% S/L RES
- 7.5% F/C/En/Neg/Tox RES
- mez protection
- 5% DEF debuff

How is this balanced or fair? If, in fact, the DEF debuff is "balanced" (which I find ridiculous already) shouldn't it also scale with the benefits of the power?

As it stands now, Brutes/Scrappers wait 8 more levels to get a power that's less effective, and actually causes more damage than it protects from (according to the 1%DEF=2%RES balance metric), in exchange for decent mez protection.

(I say decent here, because it is inferior to Tanker, and possibly Kheldian, mez protection.)

Can we get some commentary here?

I will never buy any arguments!

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im soo lost with this thread. I looked over page 1..skipped to 5 and wow...I'm just sooo confused

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That's what happens when you time-travel around, Ocarinaboy. If you'd just at through the thread like everyone else instead of abusing your time priviledges, you'd be perfectly caught up!

Choke on your birthday cake, time-traveller, YOU RUINED MY LIFE!

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As much as I would LOVE to know about things ahead of time.. it probably is for the best considering how the boards react to these things. We can't seem to go about things in a clear and calm manner..

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YOU'RE A LIAR AND YOU'VE RUINED MY LIFE!

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Gasp, a woman ruined a man's life.
Now I've seen everything.

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YOU'RE A LIAR AND YOU RUINED MY LIFE AGAIN!

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As much as I would LOVE to know about things ahead of time.. it probably is for the best considering how the boards react to these things. We can't seem to go about things in a clear and calm manner..

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YOU'RE A LIAR AND YOU'VE RUINED MY LIFE!

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Sheesh, poor guy.

Rolls out some great news and keeps getting backhanded compliments.

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No kidding. I don't think she was being rude though, that was said in fun. I do think, however, that the devs have some kind of office game where they all get together and see which comments they post get the most flames. They probably score them by (the nicer the dev comment) x (the meaner the flame response) = the most points.

Tell me States, well, PM me if you don't want to post it, do you chuckle reading the forums, or do the flames kill you inside?

Ok, that's enough from me.

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They do. A lot of the posts crack them up. Scroll down to the games section, quite a few 'game' threads were started by devs. They have a very healthy sense of humor. Heck, States was asked who his favorite posters were once, he named PuffyShirt.

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I miss Puffy. He made me laugh uproariously!

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FOOLS!

The devs haven't been replaced by pod people.

This is obviously the work of reverse vampires.

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We're through the looking glass here, people...

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To be honest, almost all of these things have been in development WAY before New Year's. We started working on the Defense change back in October. But we really needed to test things and make sure our solution actually worked. That's pretty much the way of things.

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Understood. Pod people.

(Teeheehee!)

Why the sudden turnaround in Dev behaviour?


Keep it up, pods!

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We're tweaking with toggle dropping...mostly decreasing its overall effect.

We just received tech that will allow players to pass buffs onto certain powers (such as Blizzard).

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My womb just skipped a beat.

I don't even have a womb.

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How weird is that beard? It's so weird that it was decreed a Wonder of the World, shaving punishable by mass fines or death.

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Ain't that the truth.

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Yes. One time, when dinosaurs walked the earth, a primitive form of mammal clustered within the confines of the Beard for shelter. Those mammals evolved over years into the lesser primates, who eventually became, you guessed it, humans.

All hail the Beard.

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I had always assumed that it wasn't present in PvP, but I never got around to testing it. (As a charter member of the IVFbC I can't be seen doing PvP, even for testing!)

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Sissy.