T_Immortalus

Well, there was just enough time when Propel had the longer animation, which says something about how crazy long that animation was.

Edit:
Defenders had a Gravity set in 2004?!
I wish, then maybe corruptors would get such a set as well. That would make an awesome ranged damage set.

Edit 2:
I also had time to make quips because I was playing a gravity controller. The enemies were locked down. Or maybe I was just that good?

The thing with those I always think is "the really bad stuff probably gets around it anyway".
They always try to work around anti-virus programs, and I would bet that they worked around that Windows feature a long time ago.

I'm not even sure that UAC software even gets updated that often if at all.

I've had the same issue, of no error reports, when I have tried looking for the reason why City of Heroes has crashed for me.

It seems that CoH crashes so severely that it stops any error report from being generated in windows, unless the error reporting is controlled by the application(City of Heroes) and thus won't report if the application crashes completely so that it is unable to form a report.
That makes sense, and is a problem.

Oh FYI....

The netgraph is actually not indicative of my connection.
The netgraph is a measure of the status of the connection to the game servers, which is affected by everything between my computer and the servers all the way in Texas.

My connection can be, and usually is, very stable and fast(as fast as it can be).

The red spikes on the netgraph are just indicative of packet loss somewhere along the route, from my computer to the network card to the wireless dongle to the router to the access point to the tower to the other 8 hops before it reaches the server.

The netgraph is created within the game itself, within the same code. It will show red spikes inevitably when the game code breaks and starts crashing.



Now, if an outside program was tracking my connection and saw the same issue then, yes, it would be a problem with my connection.
But, that could be a problem caused by the game crashing, cramming my connection trying not to crash or because it is crashing. It's like any machine or living thing(biological machines) in the process of failing/crashing/dying; they will inevitably have sputtering and spasms and unusual behavior, that is often more detrimental than what caused the "crashing" in the first place.
It's like "if it wasn't going to crash before these problems, it definitely is now".


So, I think the game causes a lot of strange artifacts in the netgraph, and weird behavior like that popup in one of the pictures, during the process of crashing.
That is probably why I did not crash the latest time that my default power trays blanked out. The game probably had an error that would normally cause a crash, showing the blank default trays instead of just crashing, and was able to stave off crashing at that moment and without the cascade of "spasms" afterward from the resulting errors causing a crash either.

Perhaps, the game is "its own worst enemy" when it tries to avoid a disconnect or crash.

This could be because the developers knew that the increased information(from the alignment system and then the incarnate system and then the new Freedom systems) was adversely affecting connection reliability, so they tried to force reliability instead of reducing the issues that cause the problem with reliability.
Perhaps, that is what causes my crashes. Maybe the coding that tries so hard to force the connection to stay connected and force performance is failing under enough stress or something.




This is all guessing, of course.
I just know that this game used to be a hell of a lot more reliable, despite the rare "lost connection to mapserver", and now I never see a "lost connection" message(unless I completely disable or reset my network connection intentionally to try to improve connection) and see a lot more red spikes and rare crashes.




Edit:
Just look at the /unloadgfx and /sync commands.
How many times have you seen /sync work? It doesn't seem to do anything for me, nor have I seen the bug, where the world is empty and you can't interact, that caused us to get that command at anytime since we got the ability to use that command.
I also crash more times because I use /unloadgfx than I would have prevented by using it. I do that occasionally, thinking it will improve performance, but it can and does cause an immediate crash in high graphics load situations, essentially being information spam I triggered myself.

Like I said, some of the functions in this game are worse than what they attempt to "cure".





Edit 2:
The game really needs to "trim the fat"(reduce the amount of information transfer and load as well as improve graphical efficiency) because it is obviously "having chest pains" for everyone(judging from the amount of lag and frame-rate slowdown and stutter complains from some people, and silent acceptance from most) and "having heart attacks" for me(at least from the network spam and occasional graphics overload when I reload it all using unloadgfx, as well as whatever this crash bug is).
The game used to run so well, but now it runs like an old guy on life-support.

LOL
It's not active. It's a pinned shortcut.

First, the first screenshot was from at least 1 minute after what caused the problem with the power trays.

Second, the second time was when I had flown over a portion of the mission map with a lot of enemies(54x8 difficulty) which were just starting to fire on a teammate. That was the first time it loaded that area of the map, including those enemies.
I had the red netgraph spikes due to packet spam, which invariably caused me to lose a packet that was essential and crash the game.



So, this proves the "packet spam problem" this game never had before issue 19 while showing that it somehow is related to the default power trays going blank.

The most important thing, though, is that I was fully expecting to crash after the first screenshot, before it even, but I did not. For some reason, the game did not go into "2 minute count-down to crash" mode and instead lasted at least 4 minutes at which time I exited the mission again which fixed the trays and never crashed or had any issue again for that entire mission.
Somehow, the game was able to not go into what I think was a "cascade failure" after whatever caused the tray issue.





Edit:
Actually, the red blocks on the netgraph in the second picture were from the "crash in progress".

I have witnessed the netgraph "speeding up" during times of yellow or red spikes. It will "spam spikes" filling what would normally take even up to one minute to march across the netgraph disaply in under 5 seconds.
It's as if time speeds up right before the crash and the netgraph is recording a hell of a lot faster than it usually would.

So, that wasn't "red spikes before the crash" but actually "red spikes during the 1 second crash" that ended up looking like 10-15 seconds.



I think that could be a symptom or a cause of the problem.
The game seems to respond to lag by actually attempting to communicate with the server more often and faster. It would be like you not receiving a reply message from someone you know must have received it and, assuming the worst from the silence, started spamming them apology messages or questioning messages and just plain begging for them to respond.
The game is expecting a message and when it doesn't receive it right on time then it spams requests for it.

At least, that is my guess at an explanation for why the netgraph will suddenly accelerate when there is severe lag for even an instant.

Maybe I would have normally had the "lost connection to mapserver" message at those moments, but I instead "stay connecteD" and get a spammed netgraph instead.
That's still a problem with the game, if that is what is happening. I guarantee you I have seen a lot less "lost connection" messages(almost none) since issue 18 and a lot more crashes since the update with the BAF trial and level shifts.

I get almost the same amount of packet loss if I'm right next to the router. It is more than enough speed for my internet service and very reliable. I normally play the game with under 200 ping, even when I'm not the only one using the network.

Also, I have played with 4000 ping many times before, due to high load areas and/or my family hogging bandwidth.
I don't have problems with crashing under high lag situations. It just seems to be random, or more dependent on circumstances than lag or hardware.



I don't have any other option than the situation I am in right now.
I don't have this issue on other games. I never had this issue on that "800lb gorilla" competitor, and didn't even have it in CoH before incarnates, on this same computer.

I don't even have the issue solo when in high load situations, just teamed with incarnate level shifted team/league leaders, and still many seem to not cause the issue while some will cause it every mission.

Maybe some testing should be done on that.

If true, that really messes up any attempts to say something funny when you toss a specific item, such as a chair and saying "have a seat!" or a lamp and saying "lights out!" or any other funny quip.

My point was that character tracking is obviously broken.
1) We can't stay in one place if we want to and somebody pushes us.
2) We can't push other players far enough to matter if they're in a doorway, without a lot of repeated bashing.
3) It just creates more lag.

What decides whether it is "allowed or not" and "succeeds or fails"?

It is not the client side, because lag would not affect powers then and certainly would not make 1000 ping seem like 2000+ and would likely allow cheating by forcing every attack to always hit for crazy damage(with a simple code change client side, a hack) because it wouldn't have the server say "that data is incorrect".

The server has to calculate "is this action allowed?" and then all the other data that determines success or failure then it sends that info back to the side performing the action and every other side that needs to track the action before the action can go through on all sides at the same time(hypothetically since it doesn't work that well in practice with this system).

This is why when we lose connection to mapserver we can't move or activate powers, the same with the "lost sync" bug described above that still allows us to move but not attack.






If the client did not have to ask the server for permission then the client could calculate everything and powers would never fail to activate when your client shows them as recharged. FYI, I know you have seen powers that look recharged but won't activate. That proves me correct.
I'm done explaining how server-client communication works.

What I am saying is that the game's physics do not apply to player on player collisions.

Do you see a super speeder run into a player and see both players drop dead and go to the hospital or the one being hit get launched at half their combined velocity for quite a distance?
No, you don't.


One character is not moving and "owns that spot". The server "knows they own that spot".
But for some reason, the character that "is on the spot" moves "just a little" when another player comes too close.

Obviously, either the server is not "master" then or it has a problem actually tracking static objects, which includes players that are sending no movement commands whose client side is not determining movement(and it wouldn't move them when another player hits them anyway due to the fact that player collisions are not calculated for physics simulations).




Consider the standing character a concrete wall when it comes to the game's code. Why does the concrete wall move 1ft when being hit by a 60mph other player if the code says "the concrete wall wins" and should not move?



Edit:
Either the server really does have a confirmation step for client side commands or character tracking is broken.
Either possibility is not good for differing reasons.


Edit 2:
If a stationary player is supposed to be moved by a moving player colliding with them then that can be abused to push afk players into aggro.
Therefore, that should not be possible, and thus physics do not apply. They still move though, for some reason that I can only attribute to bad code or a bug.

Then why does my character, which has been afk not moving for 5 minutes, move when somebody else, who is "item b not here in state x", "collides" with my character?

If my character really is "item a in this spot in state x" then there is no way "item b" can become "item b in a's spot in state y".


As for Propel, I believe it shows the same object for everyone. The only thing anybody else notices different is what happens after it strikes the target, or after it misses. It still tosses the same item but the item moves in different ways when it is "loose" for each client. At least it used to work this way.
That is easily proven by just asking what object somebody sees when you use it.



My whole point was that the client can move your character and the server can say "you are here" and the client has to obey.
So when you send a command to use a power, the server receives the command and then sends back either "activate power" or "can't do that yet", causing exponential lag due to needing a send and reply upstream and downstream, instead of "a certain competitor" that eliminates the downstream "permission" step which cuts lag in half and ensures exponentially better performance.

Seriously, they're making more lag than necessary by attempting to ensure everyone see the same thing and failing because everyone lags more and makes everything much more out of sync. The results, such as health changes, can't be cheated anyway.
For example, if I were to fire a power at another player in PVP with my client side in absolute control and my client said "HIT" then I would still not have actually hit the other player unless their client side allows it. If they lose the packet that says the power was a hit, or the data is incorrect(because of hacking or cheating another way or just a bug), then they will not take the hit and will not lose to me.
You can't cheat when both sides are separate instances of the client because you don't have control of the other side.


The server just needs to "pass it along", sharing necessary information with everyone within the same zone or instance, especially considering that even NPC and event tracking is pre-programmed and only changes when there is an observer present.
Just run through Perez Park in the hellion section during a slow time on the server to see what I mean. You will see and hear the "Girlfriend from Hell" NPCs summoning their pets because you got in range for them to be rendered and tracked in real time.(Edit: They do this because nobody else was in range within a certain time-frame to trigger the rendering and tracking before you.)

It's like the old saying "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is within earshot, does it make a sound?".
In this case, nothing in game actually happens unless someone is there as witness.
Yes, many events are timed, but they still don't actually proceed unless there are players within the area to witness it. You won't see Rikti or Zombies or Nemesis pop from an invasion unless there is a player there for them to trigger. Then, the server starts tracking them for that player and sending the copies of that information to new entrants into the area.
That is why you encounter a lag spike and/or graphical stutter when entering an area with a lot going on. You don't load it until you are in range to track it.


So, it's not necessary to "ask the server for permission" to move or activate powers.
1) It's always tracking whether you are connected or not anyway.
2) You won't receive NPC data or any other data if you aren't connected to be able to send your own data, and that means you can't fight anything anyway. It would be like the old "lost sync" bug that made it so you were able to move around a zone but unable to activate any doors or see any NPCs or players past a certain distance from your load-in point.
3) Even if it has the "ask permission" step, there are still obvious "lag effects" such as damage and animations being out of sync and other characters and NPCs appearing to teleport all over the place as the client gets packets out of order for an instant.

"Asking permission" doesn't work any better than not doing so, and usually works worse due to the back and forth exponential lag(lag is always present since no communication is instantaneous, at least until we figure out quantum entanglement, so even the slightest lag is multiplied).
In this case, it really is "better to ask forgiveness than permission" when it comes to online game code.

I defrag regularly and run CCleaner at least once a week. A friend helped me with some settings and explained that program to me many months ago.

I am very careful about what I put on this computer and make sure I know what it is doing.


Edit:
I even had the Windows "prefetch", or whatever that indexing of frequently used programs is called, disabled many months ago which increased my performance a lot. I know that even the standard programs the operating system has can be bad. My friend helped me optimize.
This was all before this crash bug ever started.

Thank you.(Edit: My guess was that it was a debug error code that isn't normally visible to players, maybe. I have no idea though.)


My connection is not that bad. It is more stable than quite a few people who have actual broadband, especially Comcast from what I hear.
Also, check Kitsune_Knight's post on the first page where he/she hasn't heard of these problems for dial-up users, so it likely is not that bad if it can be played on dial-up when mine is beyond dial-up(proven by my commonly sub-200 ping even while teamed, unless there is way too much going on).

Maybe I have more packet loss, but that seems to be a problem with Verizon, which is my provider after they bought the company I have internet with, and they own the hubs between me and the server.
The support people had me run a program called pingplotter a few times. They told me I had packet loss from the results, up to 20%. I watched the results in real time after that and half of the packet loss was over 100 miles away in the closest major hub and the other half tended to be in the middle of the 11 hops or at the game's end in the Dallas/Fort Worth(listed as DFW) hub of Alter.net(a Google search shows this as Verizon and Alter.net owns most of the hops between here and the game servers).

I can't change what happens at those hubs, sadly. I know my end is actually quite good, especially better than expected from my wireless antenna to the tower.

The only option I have is getting different internet(not an option right now) or getting them to figure out what info for the game my internet is mangling and do something to prevent it or correct it after the fact before it crashes the game.




Edit:
My end also compensates for the issues "up to a point". It just seems that there is one specific packet that rarely is the one my connection drops that causes this issue, which is why the issue is not that common.
I can solo or team just fine most times, especially without level shifted players. But when I get with a level shifted player, especially in AE especially in Atlas, it tends to crash a bit too often then.
Anyway, I just want to improve the game, eliminate crashes entirely so that there is a solid stable base to build future content on, same with my desire to eliminate rubber-banding(definitely possible easier than people think).

Edit 2:
So far, I have had less crashes in AE by disabling the "stop sending buffs" type of settings.

1) Another MMO.
2) I meant any newer game than that 800 lb. gorilla, especially the most recent.
3) You're nitpicking.

1) The graphics cards need to be identical for SLI to function, and definitely to function properly even if they function without being identical.

2) I believe City of Heroes has had past issues with SLI. It may require a config file change to work, or something.
I can't remember the link, but it should be somewhere here in the forums that an explanation on how to enable SLI is posted. Though, I think it is still considered "in beta" and not working properly, due to how old CoH is and how hard it is to change the underlying engine code.



Edit:
Also, you want your graphics settings "application controlled", not controlled in the Nvidia Control Panel or other overall control. That could cause issues if the game settings are different.

It's also a good idea to make sure nothing in your computer gets over 70C, degrees Celsius, as that will cause a crash due to overheating if it goes over 80 or 90.
Nvidia cards have had overheating issues due to slow fan speeds and sluggish speed ramp up on the fan. I solved this with Nvidia System Tools 6.06 and manually setting fan speed to at least 65% and usually 70% so that it keeps it cooler at all times and is fast enough to cool at max load: http://www.nvidia.com/object/nvidia_...ools_6.06.html

How do you think the client knows to "accept the master command of the server"?
It obviously works the same, moving the character to a specific position, but has a different priority. It requires comparison.

Also, the server doesn't just send "you are here" without first getting the movement and position data from the client to make that calculation.
Though, there is still a confirmation aspect that is proven by the fact that you can be standing still in an area and another character can move through the area, pushing you, and you are moved. That would never happen if the server always knows where you are and is the "absolute master". Instead, you would never move because the server knows that "you are on this spot" instead of it having to think "which colliding character is on this spot?".


1) My computer NEVER changes(due to proper maintenance, and the game certainly changes a lot more and is not "perfect" by far). It is such a RARE occurrence when this bug happens, and only when teamed evidently with level shifted incarnates(which would not matter to my computer as a whole, just the game code), that the only thing the issue could be caused by is my internet connection losing information by being too slow to get it all in the time it needs to or losing information packets despite having enough speed, which means it is software and the issue is the game's software.

2) The game is what crashes, not my computer or anything else. The game just locks up and/or says "City of Heroes has encountered a problem and needs to close".

If that were my computer then my computer would give me a much more descriptive error with whatever changed that caused the game to have a fit.

3) If it was the computer entirely, not the internet or the game, then my entire computer would be crashing much much much more often than just the game crashes(just freezes and closes) when I'm not even doing anything or am soloing on the game at least.

I don't crash while solo, unless you want to count the time I can prove I was still linked to a team I had quit because the team status no longer updates properly(it considers you on a team every time you enter an instance even if solo and doesn't quit teams properly under some circumstances) and thus "still teaming".





Seriously, how is it only a problem with City of Heroes and only under REALLY specific circumstances(which can be replicated) and then at random even under those circumstances....if it is a problem with my computer and not the internet connection messing with the game's communication or the game code itself being susceptible to imperfect internet?



I guarantee you this is a problem with the game's code not dealing well with communication errors between my game copy and the servers, but only under specific circumstances within the game program.
That makes it a problem with the game, specifically some code involved in those specific circumstances.

The randomness is just created by the fact that my internet rarely has a problem at the right time to mess up the information to cause the crash.

Somebody with better internet would never ever see the issue, despite it still being there IF they had packet loss at the correct moment.




Do you understand now?
The game is losing necessary information over my connection and unable to rectify the issue the second after the packet loss is no longer an issue.

It loses one packet, shows evidence of a problem(power trays empty, character spins and gets knocked down with sound and possibly stuck int he animation and transported to the center of the mapserver location that is loaded along with the team window and league windows either emptying or displaying as if everyone is in a different zone) and either freezes or closes the game(only the game) immediately or, usually, 1-2 minutes later(for some reason as if it has to fill memory before it fully crashes).




SO....
Other than spending more money on better internet, if there is even better internet available here, and still having the issue present despite a much lower chance of it occurring, why don't we get to the heart of the issue which is "unstable code involving teaming and likely also involving level shifts with the sidekick system" which only shows itself under random packet loss conditions and is unable to correct itself when those packet loss conditions are no longer present?


If you can't see that it is a problem with the game code being unable to resolve errors that will inevitably present themselves, no mater how rarely because no internet is perfect(meaning just lower odds for better internet but not impossible), then you know much less about how MMOs work and general internet communication works than I do.
That makes sense though. You probably do know a lot less because "you don't have experience dealing with problems" due to the fact that you always have "the least problems" with your better internet.

I've had to deal with problems that you would look at and just be baffled by. I've had to deal with them often enough to have figured out a pattern to them that allows me to minimize them(such as not teaming in CoH with level shifted players or minimizing information transfer through enabling the setting "stop sending buffs") or eliminate them or at least figure out what is the likely cause even if I can't solve it myself due to not having code access and the ability to do so without causing more issues.



FYI, rubber-banding does work as I say it does, especially for another MMO. I have seen that game send my character backwards, then receive the movement commands it "rescinded" when it pushed me back so that it then pushes me forward and then "re-received" the "you are here" rubber-band command and pushed me back again, only to "re-receive" the forward rubber-band location update.....such that it was stuck in an "infinite rubber-band loop" of ricocheting forward and backward until the game code could no longer keep it up and crashed my game, at which point it would start up the same thing when I logged back in if I logged back in too soon(due to the character still being online bouncing back and forth on the server side).
They're both games made by Cryptic with similar issues with rubber-banding, but luckily CoH included code to stop endless recursive loops in movement when lag/packet loss occurs.

Also, a different game does not have rubber-banding, and it is not because of "better performance". I still experience times, which we would call "loss of sync" here, where I am able to move in a world with no NPCs or objects that haven't loaded yet because I am under packet loss/lag conditions, but those issues solve themselves without saying "go back to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200".
This other game solved the rubber-banding issue by making the client side the "master" and the server just the "distributor of information" so that every bit of lag is only "one way" instead of "send the server data for confirmation then the server either send the correct information or disallows the data"(i.e. when you try to attack and it doesn't animate, let alone damage the enemy, until the confirmation comes back from the server) in what I call "exponential lag".

Believe me, I can look at a ping of 1000ms(1000 milliseconds or 1 second between command and action) in (another MMO) and know that my "powers" will activate exactly 1000ms/1 second after I issue the command(Edit: That allows me to play as if I am not lagging due to anticipation of the delay, and I enjoy playing more than I would because of it and have been complemented on my skill for it.) while the same scenario in City of Heroes would mean AT LEAST 2000ms/2 seconds between command and activation due to having to wait for the confirmation. That also slows down future communication that is dependent on the previous communication before it can follow through, making lag issues potentially infinitely ramp up until things just snap back to proper working ping, like it said "too many problems, just reset it all to default", if it doesn't crash in the process like the Y2K bug was supposed to have happen to computers(which didn't because the computers were patched or didn't care what date it was for essential functions).

An online FPS would be impossible under the network code CoH uses with the server as master. It would make lag at least double the problem it could ever be. That is unless they reduced the amount of communication enough so that the effect of lag was almost negligible, which is a good thing and should be worked toward by every game but far less easy than making the client "master".(Funny, that is likely why there are still a lot fewer MMOFPS games and fewer new ones willing to try it, despite other games proving it is possible with excellent results. They are just used to coding their communication the same old way with the server as master, with the added benefit of making cheating much harder, and don't want to change even for the better because it is "different" while they think it is "more difficult". Yes, humans are easily "stuck in their ways", especially with more education and experience. That is where the phrase "stubborn old man" comes from because they have done everything the same way for so long that they don't change and mandatory changes are fought "tooth and nail and screaming".) (It makes me sad this happening with my grandma when she needs care now instead of living alone.)



Edit:
Don't suggest I go back to the other game because I don't play it for 3 reasons.
1) It's all about grinding way too much if you even want a chance of getting a group for high level content.
2) There is not even close to the amount of customization that City of Heroes has. I really love options.
3) I will never ever pay for time to play a game again, at least not for one that takes away everything I paid directly for including the game box or cash shop purchases if I stop paying for the "time to use it". It's a ransom in that case.
(Edit 2: My first 3D MMO was CoH, so don't think that another game "corrupted me" when it just enlightened me to the flaws in CoH after I tried it. That is never a bad thing. I still have played CoH for 4 times as long as I did the other game, and for twice as long before I even tried the other game.)

I just expect, now, that "if an 8 year old game, which spent 5 years before that in development so that its network code is probably over a decade old, can eliminate rubber-banding and make lag a lot less horrible and be wildly successful" then a newer game, with the advantage of hindsight and more knowledge and options, should be able to do the same.
I also expect older games to at least try to change their network code to work just as well, even if they end up not being able to. I also hope those games seriously consider making a "remake" or sequel if they can't change their network code, especially since such an "inability to change" is likely pulling the game down in a lot more ways as well as making it harder to develop more content. City of Heroes falls under this category.

True, but the problem is that my computer is also making calculations to compare to the server results and send to the server asking "is this correct?" which can be incorrect, due to losing that packet, and cause my client to crash.

It makes sense when you consider that the calculations are on both sides. It's the reason MMOs run some things server side. It's a form of DRM and anti-cheating code. It just so happens that it making the game unplayable does not just apply to pirated copies or private servers but also to lost packets occasionally on legitimate clients.


Honestly, why would anything need to be calculated server side, in regards to our characters and not just NPCs, if not to ensure that we only play on their servers(without knowing the exact code to copy from the servers) and can't cheat?


So, it makes sense when you consider the fact that there is a comparison and confirmation step in the client>server>client communication.
(FYI, that is why we have rubber-banding when moving and lagging. The client side, our ends, thinks we are in one place and lets us move there while the server doesn't get the packets on time or in the proper order and commands the client to push us back. Luckily, this doesn't become an endless loop like it does on another MMO, but it still happens here.)