Steel_Shaman
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:We could sit here and sling anecdotes at each other all day I imagine.Originally Posted by Tyger42
Some people are more easily frustrated than others. *Shrug* Having no death penalty can lead to people quitting because they're bored. No risk to them makes the game too trivial. So, it goes both ways. I'd be willing to bet, though, that I'd be able to turn up more people who quit over the game being too easy than you can turn up who quit over the debt being too harsh.
I've also seen plenty of posts on this forum over the years from people who intentionally played in perma-debt because they felt leveling was too quick. ><
A Death Penalty does not in and of itself create challenge IMHO. What it often does do is lead to people playing extremely cautiously and bog the whole game down. (Again, my opinion.)
I think CoH's penalty is just fine and see no compelling reason to change it. I have not seen large numbers of people that are so inept they are causing team wipes constantly. (I say that because someone earlier in the thread brought up the notion of people learning the game faster in order to avoid dying.)
I also pose the question again: why does there even need to be a death penalty? Is not having to run all the way back to the mission with the knowledge a dumb AI smacked you around bad enough? Perhaps I'm just weird, but I don't like it when my characters die and I try to avoid it. -
Quote:OK, I just did a search.Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja
You also have to remember that the new search window as a greatly truncated list compared to what it was before the 'update'. I've actually been playing quite a bit of lower level content lately, between the 1-30 level range.
I limited the range to 21-30 and got 3 people, including myself. I then searched for 41-50 and got 20 people. Only 2 of those are not 50. Those results are pretty typical for what I've been seeing lately. During primetime the number of lowbies is about the same as right now, and the number of 50's is double what I'm seeing at the moment. I get what you're saying about the list truncating itself when you get a lot of results, but I don't think that's what's happening.
<shrug> It is what it is. The Incarnate system is the new shiny, and the majority of people are doing that. I get that. I don't like it, but I get it.
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Quote:I have a good friend that I played CoH with back during Issue 1. He cancelled his sub just after Issue 2 came out and to this day refuses to even try CoH again. Why? XP Debt. He just won't believe me when I tell him debt has been so nerfed it is a pale shadow of what he remembers.Originally Posted by Tyger42
When the reality is "I want death to have enough of an impact that you're motivated to learn from it rather than simply shrug it off".
Sometimes having a severe enough death penalty can have the opposite effect of what you want. Sometimes it leads to frustration and a cancelled sub. -
My personal top 10, in no particular order:
1) Travel powers would not consume a power choice. Players would just choose the power they wanted at an appropriate level.
2) Crafting in the game at day 1. I'd also like to see expanded temp powers (maybe even a list of common temps available on the crafting table?)
3) Heroes and Villains existing in the same zones. Hero missions would take place in the nicer areas with occasional forays into the "bad part of town". Vice versa for villain missions.
4) Respeccing would be easier. As in, go to the Trainer and say "I wanna respec," probably for a reasonable, non-prohibitive fee that would scale with level.
5) Dual builds from the start, with no cooldown period on switching back and forth, other than to not be in combat to make the switch.
6) Non-symmetric costume options. Also holsters, backpacks, high collar capes.
7) Upgraded character models (articulated fingers, animated hair, facial expressions).
8) Shapeshifting powerset.
9) Expanded powerset customization (color tinting, pet customization, alternate animations, customizable emanation points).
10) Ditch the current spawn system as it applies to mob levels. Just have mobs of a particular level spawn in a particular area of a zone, period. This is the single biggest reason why I hate street hunts so much. It's often an incredible chore to even find mobs of an appropriate level. You either wind up killing grays or running from purples. -
Quote:I really couldn't have said it better myself.Originally Posted by Vanden
No, it only means that there's no harsh penalty for defeat.
With regards to the "death express", it's a completely different context from just losing a fight. In the "free ride" example, you're willingly letting yourself be defeated. You're achieving your goal. You're still in control. When you lose a fight, you're not willingly relinquishing control of your character. It's being forcibly taken from you, because you've failed.
It's a completely different thing to be sitting at your desk with a pencil and paper trying to objectively quantify a proper punishment for losing, and actually experiencing that loss yourself. You think that just because the player suffers no numerical loss for defeat, it's meaningless, but the player sees it differently; he lost, he died. And players hate to lose.
I've never understood the need of some players (or Devs for that matter) to punish the player for failure. Speaking for myself, the failure itself is punishment enough. And honestly, until the Devs completely eliminate the chance for high level ambushes to spawn in low level zones for certain missions, a steeper death penalty has no place here. -
Quote:My results have been similar if not slightly worse than yours Sam. Probably has something to do with me leveling red side at the moment. At this point I'm extremely thankful for the weekly task force, as it allows me to get groups pretty quickly when I start feeling like some company.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've found something of an amusing game - open the team seek window and count the number of players playing level 50 characters vs. those playing a character of any other level. I tend to end up with something like 40 level 50 players to 10 non-50s, and 5 of those 10 non-50s are in their high 40s, two more on lowibies and only one within two levels of me.
I don't really have much use for those statistics, it's just something interesting to keep an eye on. -
I'm fine with the system we have. I see no reason why we would need a different one.
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Quote:My dear, I mean no offense by this but you have a very simplistic view if that is really how you feel. You either haven't done Washington's and Kang's arcs or you are choosing to ignore the vast majority of the dialog with them. Both men obviously care very much about the safety of the people of Praetoria. Kang's moral choice mission at the end of Praetoria is proof positive the man has a conscience and is not evil just because he's a Loyalist.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
By helping to keep the people drugged and the Seers enslaved, while working with official PPD torturers like Washington and Kang?
Rebellion is the only option for moral people in Praetoria - no one can work within such an evil system without being evil themselves - loyalists are surrounded by crimes against humanity 24/7, and the only choice to make is to take up arms agaisnt the system and tear it down - like we're doing on the Incarnate Trials.
You seem hung up on the notion that Loyalist means "loyal to Cole" when if you would pay attention to the Responsibility Arc you would see that what it really means is "loyal to Praetoria and its people." That makes things a little more complicated than you obviously would like to believe.
But I know from your post history no amount of logic is going to reach you. So with that I think I'll just bow out of this part of the thread. I've said what I had to say. This has been a bit of a threadjack anyway. -
Quote:I could only get behind something like that if the badge unlock itself was sufficient to provide the benefit, NOT having the costume piece it provides "equipped." Otherwise you'll suddenly see everyone's characters sprouting backpacks or whatever other "essential" items min/maxers deem "necessary" to the proper functioning of their characters.Originally Posted by reiella
Although, it would be a neat, tied benefit.
Unlock this Backpack, get +10 salvage storage.
Add a vanguard backpack costume option to the vanguard sack, etc.
Would be kind of neat imo. -
Quote:"Constantly?"Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Kang and Mother Mayhem, are on the responsibility path - you have to choose the Resistance option on their arcs to avoid becoming totally evil.
The responsibility path is constantly bringing up the issue of slavery, and constantly making the support of slavery be the loyalist option.
Not quite. On Kang's arc you are looking for a person you (and Kang) believe to be a serial killer. You might argue that the Seers his experiments killed were better off dead. That's a bit of a slippery slope though.
As for Mother Mayhem's arc, what you call the "Resistance" choice in that case I call the true Responsibility Loyalist test. Responsibility Loyalists care about Praetoria and its people. Sometimes that means taking actions against your leaders, because sometimes leaders can be wrong.
Responsibility Loyalists recognize their leaders aren't perfect and are trying to work within the confines of the system they have to effect change and protect the people without resorting to outright rebellion. To classify that point of view as evil trivializes the efforts of the writers of Praetoria's arcs. There are no simple black and white factions in Praetoria.
It's not like the Resistance arcs are all Shining Knight stuff either. How about the mission where Hatchet has you kidnap people to feed them to the ghouls he's captured? Still feeling heroic now? -
Quote:Actually of all the Praetorian arcs I've played the Loyalist Responsibility arc feels the most heroic. Loyalists don't necessarily just "serve Cole". They care about and serve Praetoria. There's a mighty big difference in that distinction.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
What I was referring to was the complete lack of any moral decision we make in Prae from levels 1-20 mattering when it comes time to choose a hero or villain, linked with that fact that Loyalists ARE IN FACT villains, which makes allowing them to choose heroside even funnier.
Now the Resistance Crusaders on the other hand? Those guys are insane. -
Quote:My sympathies. Mine is still complaining about the time I set up a Bane secondary build to see if I wanted to level another Soldier to be a Bane. One little evening of not being functional and it just won't stop bringing it up.Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
My Crab Spider backpack would like to have a word with you.
... on a similar note, my Crab Spider backpack has been insulting people lately. -
Well Gravebane hit 28 tonight. I'm having more fun on this character than I have had in a very long time. I'm using EricHough's build above, with just a couple of tweaks:
1) My slotting is different since I'm still using SO's for the moment.
2) I re-arranged the order of power selection (travel power at 14, for example) to make the build more "leveling friendly".
3) I substituted Placate for Recall Friend.
4) For the moment I have Hasten/SS instead of CJ/SJ. I found the bane mace attacks far too slow without Hasten. I admit I'm looking forward to dumping Hasten once I have the majority of the IO's together for the build though. I hate how its activation animation forces redraw and I really don't care for the "glowy hands" either.
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for the advice. You've helped me out a lot. -
Quote:I'm probably going to keep Placate in my build. I just really like the power. As for the Bane armor, I only have one complaint: I want my glowy sensors on my helmet, dangit! It irks me that if I use the Crab/Bane helmet (Vet reward) on a different costume slot they glow, but on the actual Arachnos soldier slot they don't.Originally Posted by Daemodand
Bane Placate also gives 20% ToHit for 10 seconds. People always forget that. Plus, Placate>Crowd Control.
Just a couple things to think about when it comes to Bane Placate.
P.S. Props to the OP for going full Bane on one of his Soldiers. The Bane Armor is the coolest, and lets face it, the only thing better than leveling one VEAT is leveling another one. -
Quote:Very nice. I must admit due to my Stalkers I'm a big fan of Placate. But that double Assault does sound sexy.... That's what I like about SoA's. There are lots of different ways to build them effectively.Originally Posted by Magentrix
My bane:
I slot resistance powers more heavily, cough up placate (DPS loss anyway), and Venom Grenade (screw redraw). No pets, no web envelope, this build really focuses on making the Bane into the best stalker I could make it. Note in particular the 27.5% buff to global damage, plus double assault, which has shatter doing over 1000 damage from hide. -
Quote:Eric, I really like your build. The only thing I would do differently is to take Placate instead of Recall Friend and maybe change up the order some powers are taken in.Originally Posted by EricHough
Here is a build I am contemplating on my bane. His primary build is an AE focused huntsman (gun attacks + leviathan mastery for arctic breath + bilespray), his secondary build is a melee bane focusing on the mace attacks and I used it mostly to solo and never really seriously updated it after he hit 50. I play mostly as a huntsman but I have been kicking around the idea of updating the mace build so that it would play better in a group and be good for single target damage, as the huntsman build is somewhat lacking. Here is what I have come up with
One key thing I realized is that it is WELL worth taking tough/weave on soldiers - they get the same values on these powers that tanks do, so you get a lot out of them. Thats why I did not have to slot as many touch of death and mako's bite sets as you did - weave gave me 7.6% def to all positions. A bunch of my recharge is in LoTG + recharge IO's but the nice thing about those these days is that you can pick them up with alignment merits fairly easily - 4 days per LoTG if you can run 5 tip missions a day (plus an alignment mission on day 2/4).
You achieved the softcap and got a lot more recharge in than I did on my Bane build. I never thought to use Tough/Weave, I guess because I didn't realize SoA's got such good values from them. They make the build a little end heavy, but the amount of recovery you have should fix that.
I may just use your build as a template of sorts for my Bane. I hope you don't mind.
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Quote:I agree. Some of the tip missions make them seem even worse at times.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I see them more as vigilantes. What annoys me about that is that they're hypocrites about it, and the game treats them as heroes, and expects us to treat them as heroes despite evidence to the contrary.
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Quote:Yeah like I said once I sat and thought about it I realized that I was probably creating my own issue with the RWZ. I'm leveling a new character right now, maybe I'll go there on him, but I'll wait until he's 45 or so. That way I can do all the arcs and get the "full experience" of the zone.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
The RWZ spans a 15-level range, and a range where you take longer to level. It's unrealistic to expect it to have enough content to fill that range. No other story zone except maybe the Hollows has enough content to fill the level range it covers either, and all the others only cover 10 levels.
So yeah, no wonder it "wears thin" to you, you've only seen 1/4 of it. 1/5 if you've never done the LGTF. I will agree with you about Cimerora though, the arcs there seem like an afterthought, they have no substance and half the missions take you out of the zone anyway.
Ah yes, Longbow. I absolutely hate Ms. Liberty's private little army. But I really got irritated when I read this little gem once on a Longbow Flamethrower mob:Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
One word: Longbow.
Heroes my butt. They're mercenaries, nothing more.Quote:Harkening back to the days of flaming arrows are Longbow's flamethrowers. They typically try not to use these when the press is around—burning enemies alive plays poorly on the evening news for a "heroic" organisation. -
Quote:Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it is entirely repeatable content.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
The RWZ is all repeatable missions? Did I just imagine the four quite substantial arcs it has?
However it doesn't have enough content in itself (imho) to take a character all the way through the 35-40 range without resorting to repeatable content.
Perhaps this is a fault of my own, but every time I've gone to the RWZ it's always been on a level 35 character and I always seem to run out of story arc missions before hitting the next "tier" of missions in the 40-50 range. As a result I wind up getting tired of the place and leaving it. I really should go back sometime and do the arcs I've never seen, I just keep finding other things to occupy my time. -
Quote:If you mean more content similar to the RWZ and Cimerora, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. Those two zones wear thin very fast. The vast majority of what keeps you there is repeatable random missions. If I wanted that I'd go do papers.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
A 30-40 Praetorian wilderness zone with a Vanguard forward base and a focus on fighting the Devouring Earth who have started becoming more active again now that the Hamidon is waking up and a 40-50 West Coast neutral settlement zone that Tyrant is trying to bring fully into his Empire could be acceptable fillers for that 30-50 "gap"
What I was thinking of was adding new contacts to existing zones, like the Devs did with the Clone Arcs. -
Quote:I actually pointed this out a while back. When a character dings 20 these days they immediately get access to quite a few recently designed arcs. My Bane Spider is 25 and has yet to even touch one of the original Sharkhead Isle contacts.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
All the new story arcs from I17 onwards ahve been set roughly in the 20-30 range, with nothing added to the 30+ part - which is one of the main reasons I think they're planning a 30+ or 35+ expansion in Praetoria - like they're filling in the "gap" between the 1-20 GR content and a possible 30+ expansion for Praetoria.
Even the new TFs are kinda in this bracket too - there's quite a lot of new content available once people leave the 1-20 GR content - plus, it's also tied into some of the story elements they're familair with from the 1-20 stuff.
This "glut of content" in the 20's serves to make the 30's a somewhat jarring experience. You go from huge numbers of options for running new and highly polished content to suddenly being stuck with contacts that have been in the game for 7 years. I would love it if the Dev's would start pumping out new story arcs in the 30's or 40's. -
Quote:Because then people would just farm for the Incarnate salvage by doing the same maps over and over. Oh wait....Originally Posted by Clouded
Why is it one or the other? Why not have trials and have the ability to earn threads in normal content?
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Ok so I tweaked the spec a little. Using dual builds I took both the original build (at level 24) and the new one for a test drive. The new build is by far more fun. Something I didn't think about originally was the terribly long animation times of the ranged attacks. It just made the character feel.....clunky, for lack of a better word. I'm still not 100% happy with the build (I had to give up TT: Leadership to squeeze Venom Grenade in) but knowing me I'll continue tweaking it. Here's what it looks like now:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Gravebane: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Bane Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Bane Spider Training
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Bash -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(7), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), T'Death-Dam%(17)
Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 2: Wolf Spider Armor -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A)
Level 4: Combat Training: Defensive -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(5), Krma-ResKB(9)
Level 6: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(11), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(31), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(31), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Build%(40)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(11), S'dpty-EndRdx(23), S'dpty-Def(25), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(25)
Level 12: Venom Grenade -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(15), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(27)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Run-I(A)
Level 16: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Shatter -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(19), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(19), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), T'Death-Dam%(23)
Level 20: Pulverize -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Mako-Dam%(46)
Level 22: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
Level 24: Cloaking Device -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(27), S'dpty-EndRdx/Rchg(36), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), S'dpty-Def(40)
Level 26: Placate -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 28: Surveillance -- ShldBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(A), ShldBrk-Acc/DefDeb(29), ShldBrk-Acc/Rchg(29), ShldBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A)
Level 32: Crowd Control -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(37)
Level 35: Web Cocoon -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(42), Lock-Rchg/Hold(42), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(43), Lock-%Hold(50)
Level 38: Call Reinforcements -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(39), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(39), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Web Envelope -- DblAc-Acc/Rchg(A), DblAc-Rchg/Immob(42), DblAc-Acc/EndRdx(43), DblAc-Immob/Rng(43), DblAc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(46)
Level 44: Shatter Armor -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(45), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(45), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), T'Death-Dam%(50)
Level 47: Summon Blaster -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(48), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(48), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Conditioning
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(5)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(3)
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What would you suggest I drop to make room for Venom Grenade?
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Quote:Thank you for the offer, I may just take you up on that. My current project is a Bane. Or at least he will be, when I finally make it to 24. I hit 20 a little while ago, so getting closer.Originally Posted by Bright
Since you're on Liberty, you should catch up with FCM and I some night, Shaman. We are doing some incarnate trials with our favorites, but haven't completely given up on the non-incarnate portion of the game.
We usually just duo our low-to-mid level toons, but having other people around is never a bad thing. I don't mind sidekicked lowbies at all.
(And while my 50s are almost all hidden from searches, my lower level ones tend not to be. At the moment, I have "in progress" a Bane, an electric Tank and a dark Corr on the red side... and a mace Tank, a ninja MM, an illusion Controller, a mind/psi Dom, a shield Scrap and a fire Blaster on the blue. They're anywhere from lvl 18 to 41.)