Spiritchaser

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So with the new going rogue expansion, do you figure we'll get hero color zapity zap on reformed blueside brutes? or will we forever be surrounded by red as a reminder of our dark pasts?

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I think we need to know what "side switching" really means before we can ponder something like this. If it's a villain going over to the good side specifically in the Praetorean world, I can see them leaving the colors alone. After all, maybe red is the "good" color over there.

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I understand the discretion, But I'm inclined to conjecture lots about customation, I mean, what do we really have to lose?

Partly this could be because customization isn't actually the top of my list. The one thing I'd most like to see a revamp of in the next few issues absolutely won't be there. Power customization is great and all, but I'd love to see a more dynamic animation system, allowing motion and attacks.

I'm about 99.9% sure I'll have to wait for CoH II for that one though.

So with the new going rogue expansion, do you figure we'll get hero color zapity zap on reformed blueside brutes? or will we forever be surrounded by red as a reminder of our dark pasts?

Actually most of the good stuff is there as it is. I'll have to pay more money on respecs to take more out than I'm taking out now... though I do seem to have too much recharge there, i'll need to axe one of the thb sets

Well here goes again.

I Haven't pvp'd for quite a while, here's my wild guess at an updated build. It looks daft to me, but... as far as I can tell, my best two attacks are going to be flurry and jump kick, so...

Any comments on basic sanity would be much appreciated. There are 3 extra slots in FH that I havn't decided what to do with yet.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

silly i14 spine regen: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Spines
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Barb Swipe -- Mako-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), Mako-Acc/Dmg:50(3), Mako-Dam%:50(5), Acc-I:50(5), HO:Nucle(48)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Empty(A), Empty(48), Empty(50), Empty(50)
Level 2: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), Dct'dW-Heal:50(13), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(13)
Level 4: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(9), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(15), P'Shift-EndMod:50(15)
Level 6: Build Up -- AdjTgt-ToHit:50(A), AdjTgt-Rchg:50(7), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx:50(9), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg:50(17)
Level 8: Impale -- Apoc-Dmg:50(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(19), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(21), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Apoc-Dam%:50(34)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(17), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(37), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37), Dct'dW-Heal:50(37)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Integration -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(40), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40), Dct'dW-Heal:50(40), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(42)
Level 18: Flurry -- Mako-Acc/Dmg:50(A), HO:Nucle(19), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx:50(23), Mako-Dmg/Rchg:50(27), Mako-Dam%:50(43), Acc-I:50(43)
Level 20: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(23), RechRdx-I:50(27)
Level 22: Super Speed -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Jump Kick -- Hectmb-Dmg:50(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(25), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(25), Acc-I:50(39), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg:50(46), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48)
Level 26: Super Jump -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(29), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(29), Dct'dW-Heal:50(31), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(31)
Level 30: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), Ksmt-ToHit+:30(34)
Level 32: Throw Spines -- Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg:50(33), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(34)
Level 35: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(36), P'Shift-EndMod:50(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(36)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- AdjTgt-ToHit:50(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg:50(42), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx:50(43), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 44: Laser Beam Eyes -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(A), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg:50(45), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Dev'n-Hold%:50(45), HO:Nucle(46)
Level 47: Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 49: Phase Shift -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit



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I haven't PvP'd since i13 beta, it's been a while. I'm curious to know what people's opinions would be of the following two characters in the current state of things:

Ice/rad troller and spines/regen scrapper.

Skillwise, I've been around the block, but I'm nothing special. This is for Zone and kickballs, so I have no high end expectations, but I do want to do the best I can with what I've got to work with.

I'd love to hear any comments on these two. If they're both daft, are there other suggestions people have? I do have some other options. Although the others were never originally intended for pvp, the world HAS changed a bit...

In I7 I was running my EM/EA with fighting fitness leaping leadership for max def. I think I had about 39% s/l, and it wasn't bad, though with no IO regen and no heal, it wasn't nearly as tough as today's high def builds. I tried without fitness so I could have Aid Self for a bit, but the lack of mobility killed that for me. I really like swift or hurdle, ideally both. Each and every brute I've played without those powers has eventually re-specced back into swift or hurdle or both. If I'm going to go with swift or hurdle, health and stamina are almost no-brainers. Lets face it, health is pretty good for EA, and if you're going to take health... How many powers are really better than stamina, even for /EA?

As far as I know, Mids won't indicate enhanced DR in either SR or SD.

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Now on a final note, can you give me details about how you would softcap defense bebuff resistance for shield defense? I got an idea for a scrapper.....

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Take and slot grant cover, and you need to double stack AD (not trivial, not REALLY hard, somewhere in between) and you'll need HOs in AD to enhance the DR in that power.

[edit]:

Incidentally, I actually have more EA characters than SR characters, though for extreme builds, I'm beginning to think I may prefer SD to both, especially with DM where +regen matters less. Once softcapped, you've got more utility than EA and more survival than SR.

I don't think EA protection is "crappy", that's clearly not the case but neither am I 100% ok with where it is.

I don't have any problem discussing the strengths of IO'd sets, but at the same time base performance relatively more important. We can make monsters out of everything with IOs, ease of doing so matters, cost of doing so matters, maximum power matters. It just matters less.

Once EA goes blueside, I'll definitely be rolling a couple. Spines/EA and BS/EA are almost certain and I might do claws/EA as well, I'm not sure.

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Rethinking what I posted earlier, a 3rd option they could go with. Make the effects not stack from the same caster. which would more or less force the user to only use one at a time. effectivly doubling the durration.

but I agree Spirit, there are probably a few billion things they could do with CP to change the powers effects while keeping it similar to how it is now.

personaly I wouldn't mind seeing some end drain resistance added into the set somewhere. I suppose CP would be a good a place as any to add that.

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Can someone please explain to me how a toon with two CP powers would either be overpowered or jilted in some way? You know my brute has taunt, but there's a pool I could take that would give me provoke as well. The presence pool. But you know what? The world still turns.

Leave CP alone. Leave the epics alone. Everybody wins.

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The question of whether or not /EA matches up to the norm on overall survival and utility depends a lot on what you compare it to. There are numerous strengths and weaknesses to /EA, as there are to all sets. They've been rehashed many times over the course of this thread. I'm just going to list the rankings as I see them, and comment a bit on why I think what I do as a summary. I'm not listing stone here. Stone is great, but as often as not, a stone brute is almost a different AT.

SR is almost certainly better (though not by as much as it used to be). You have superior aggro control, easier access to very high defence, your passive scaling resists are better than the static resists /EA gets, you have coverage against almost all attacks, and your defence resistance, your crowning glory, is at the hardcap. Nothing can take your protection from you.

WP is also almost certainly better. You're reasonably good at just about every type of passive protection going, and IOs can now let you shore up every single type of protection you feel you want more of.

/DA is almost certainly better, although granted, it's NOT a hands off set, or a set that works well for a newer player. The value of DA is often highest in really tough environments, where it's variety of tools can make a huge difference.

/SD gives you a somewhat harder time softcapping, but in exchage, you get much better resists, +HP that are up all the time, universal protection, extra damage and of course you get shield charge. If that weren't enough, the enhanceable nature of SD's Defence Resists, and the stackability of AD means that highly IO'd /SD with HOs can hardcap DR just like SR can. That's a MONSTEROUS advantage that EA cannot ever have solo.

/Fire is now less survivable in many situations, though of course more survivable in a few others. Fire gets strong earlier, and adds much more to damage than /EA could. The fear in burn will save your behind in AE content that was designed to cripple melees, and Fire has a good solid role in PvP, where EA is now second tier after the elusivity nerf.

/INV is... well Invul is better or worse. In most ways I personally think Invul and /EA are now so close that it's probably just not worth fighting over.

/Ele? you can now make a solid argument that /Ele needs help more than /EA does. You get some very powerful sapping power, and it helps a lot, but in my opinion, on the whole, that little heal in ED flipped the order of these two sets. The thing is, the CP issue exists here as well. A small change to the CP power for both sets could arguably be the same, and could balance things out very well. I can think of rather a lot of ways to do that.

Sure there are a hundred little synergies with each set I haven't addressed, I haven't talked about IO costs etc. but there's the rest of the thread to review for the details.

The bottom line as I see it: /EA, like /Ele puts too many of it's pennies in endurance management. That costs it performance elsewhere. Tied for second last isn't the worst place to be, all the brute sets are playable, and obviously, dominator energy assault needs help first (I'd argue that energy melee needs help first too now!) but I think one or two little extra perks in /EA would be reasonable.

Why is there a problem with CP? A scrapper with modest recharge, chaining two CPs would potentially violate some basic principles about performance, and would badly outperform an /EA brute in terms of endurance management... and that's really saying something.

The devs could do all sorts of things, but I'm hoping that when /EA gets reviewed for proliferation, it gets modified with a little extra capacity for survival.

Counterpoint: /EA is actually going to be a much stronger set blueside than it is redside. There's not nearly as much psi over there...

You know, the thing is, while I don't really LIKE repulse, I do have to admit, I've always thought it would have been a far better power for brutes scrappers, and hell, even tanks, than it is for stalkers.

Though of all of these, I'd say it fits brutes best. Unfortunately, unless all of CP's functionality were incorporated into another EA power, I really wouldn't want the power changed out. Too many people use it as is.

Also, It isn't as if I want to shortchange scrapper EA, after all, I'll probably make a few of them...

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The 4th option is that energy aura for scrappers and tankers can be different from the brute's version. Actually, fire melee gets a similar treatment. As mentioned before, this might make the brutes mad.

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In this regard, I can only speak for myself, however:

If the devs were going to replace CP in scrapper /EA with a different power, they'd certainly have to be most exquisitely careful in picking that power such as to avoid making ME angry.

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1. Modify the power to function different that how Conserve Power works now (Global end reduction)

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Keep in mind there are a host of ways the power could be changed.

Even a shorter duration conserve power type effect, possibly with a +regen component, a + res component or some other effect, could work just fine.

Conserve power from the APP and CP from /EA can be used in specific ways. Different cycles are all it would require to change that.

There are a great many other options, I wouldn't think restrictively at this point.

I don't think that there's any question that blanking a power is possible, and maybe it even is easy. I do not, however, think it's the right choice, unless just possibly the 5th power added to body mastery (once one is added) is one that synergises especially well with /EA, (and only especially well with /EA) to compensate.

That's a surprisingly tall order given the other sets out there, and short of some serious weirdness, nothing comes immediately to mind, but it might be doable.

Still, even if this were possible, I'd still consider it an ugly bandaid, but at that point it's down to personal preference, not balance considerations.

To my mind there are the following uses for CP, roughly as I would personally rate them in importance (your mileage may vary)

1 Staminaless builds
2 PvP against anyone who attacks blue (I'm not totally current on this, and this may be less important in I 14, I don't know. I do know this used to be helpfull)
3 To mitigate the end crash after overload, whereby a player chews a blue, fires off end drain, and then gets lots of mileage out of that with CP up.
4 for concept

I fail to see why a power can't trade off some fraction of it's end management for other capacity and still maintain critical functionality for all the above.

That does not, of course demand that it "should" be changed, or that its the most important thing to change, though one definitely does have to consider the impact of a scrapper with two CPs...

There's no reason CP couldn't be modified to do something similar to what it does now, and yet change it such that it also does something a little differently than the existing power.

I can think of many ways to do this which would not violate the concept, of the power or set, and which would allow current CP users to obtain a very similar effect.

A passive + HP + Max End
A passive slottable global endredux + end drain/recovery resist (similar in concept to TT:O)
A Click +recovery +regeneration power on the same timer as CP
A click +HP +End power on the same recharge as CP, or potentially lower numbers on the dull pain cycle.

And so on.

You get the same concept, you get a very similar (but potentially slightly better) power, you only offend the forum cottage rules lawyers.

I'd most like to have arc forking.
Multiple selectable paths through a mission arc... fight the end boss first, or do some side missions to make him weaker?

Root around on the docks for clues, or try and wipe out the base and hope someone squeels...

Fight the ice monster or the fire demon in their lair...

A bunch of clues can tell you where to search, the warehouse, the disco, oranbega... use your brain and figure it out or brute force it and crush everything... but watch that arc timer!

And so on.

SR would, using current AT power scaling, be broken on a tanker.

That does not, necessarily, demonstrate that it's broken on a scrapper, brute or stalker. Sets often need to be modified, for transfer, or just not transferred (some defender buff sets come to mind as applied, or not applied, to controllers or MMs). In this case, because of the asymptotic performance of defence and resistance, the delta in transmitted damage for SR is most sensitive to that effect, since it uses single type mitigation, and thus starts out closest to the problem area.

Unless Tank SR were different than other SR, or unless DR were to be implemented for PvE, SR could not be transferred as is to tankers.

But as I mentioned, baseline performance for brutes and scrappers isn't necessarily broken. Given the current data mining method of powerset balancing, SR may well perform just where the devs want, and may quite probably underperform WP. From a monster barring point of view, IO'd SR is probably less problematic than IO'd WP, IO'd shield, or IO'd invul, which can all softcap, only with more tricks than SR. Comparing to SR, either on average data mined performance, or extreme performance might or might not yield the comparison you expect, or at least it's not intuitively obvious that it would.

As far as WP being weak against single opponents? that's not really something I've had much trouble with. I'll grant I do tend to build WP for survival with cj, tough and weave, and often with maneuvers or IOs. I don't really fight many AVs until the late 30s, and I generally have room by then for some extra survival.

This is also when I'd expect /EA to get it's final buff, to modify CP in some way.

It's also a little ironic that with current number scaling for ATs, /EA would make a fairly solid tank set. We might actually see something like that...

I'm not convinced that /EA is quite complete just yet.

That said, I think there are a host of reasons why /EA should not be positional, from variety, to theme, to IO build strategies to the cottage rule.

I think discussions about softcapping an ice brute will not be comparisons with /EA. EA will be weaker when softcapped, but very much easier TO softcap, which gives you room for other things, and for many players, this is actually going to matter most.

For those who do have vast budgets, the comparison might best be made with softcapped WP. Ice gives you a damage aura, and superior aggro control, in so much as brutes will care. Both have some nice toys, but where /WP will be nerely impossible to softcap vs. s/l (only corner case builds will do this) ice will be very difficult to softcap against fire/cold. Where Ice must rely on it's HP against psi damage, WP gets to mostly ignore it. Where WP gets it's endurance passively, Ice must be more active, Where WP gets little from global recharge, /Ice gets more defence, healing and HP. etc. etc.

I don't think top end /ice builds will be necessarily better than top end WP builds are for brutes, but I think they'll be close, and that they'll be most easily compared to each other. Brute /WP is a very high standard to be in the company of.

In the past? possibly... maybe even probabably.

Now? I don't think so. On balance, I still think SR is the stronger of the two sets, with it's monsterous, ungodly defence resistance, it's superiour passive resists and it's total protection, but EA isn't devoid of relative strengths.

Many arguments are made about how easy SR is to softcap relative to EA, but that's not really the whole picture. EA can get very strong, or even softcap, rather early. Earlier, in general, than most SR builds will. EA has, of course much more endurance to play with. When at the cap, EA's minimal heal becomes significant.

Ice? sure it's plenty strong, but remember, with brute numbers it's not going to be easy to cap either, and certainly not early.

I don't have a problem with Ice brutes, I think it'd be great for a wide range of concepts, but I also don't think it's necessary to base proliferation on any kind of "fair trade" of powersets. To my mind, if a powerset, or variant thereof makes sense from a conceptual and game mechanics point of view, it should be proliferated, with testing time being the notable constraint. In the case of /EA, there's also the CP issue, in the case of ice, it'll be that -recharge.

One of the concerns raised with /ice for brutes is that it would nearly eliminate the value of /EA. To some extent that's probably still a valid argument, but it's less valid now than it used to be.

How about large patrols of allies, sweeping through the map?

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Maybe the biggest challenge is how mob spawn rate affects threat level. What I find to be key is creating different versions of mobs in which the more challenging power is replaced with one less threatening; while the secondary remains the same.

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I'm not sure I'm appreciating the meaning of this. I think I know what you mean... but perhaps not.

By mob spawn rates: I'm currently toying with eliminating minions all together. I've got some very hard hitting mobs (SS (ex)/Electric manipulation (ex)) in order to provide something that really needs to be controlled or killed quickly even if there's a granite on the team... and some less hard hitting mobs: BS (wk)/WP(ex) and Psi assault(st)/WP(ex) to tone things down, but to give a "controlled" spawn some staying power. I may have to add some FM (wk)/? mobs as damage dealers as well to further limit things. This is in addition to the more dedicated ranged support that could spawn.

If you are suggesting that total spawn threat can be managed by diluting the pool by an appropriate degree, then I get what you're saying... If you're saying something else... er might I ask what that would be?

I've been playing with this one arc for a long time now... since well before live, but I just can't seem to get my mobs to work together the way I want... Oh, Im inching towards something acceptable, and some individual mobs are exactly where I want them... the reasonably delicate but terrifying glass cannon, the durable as hell but not that dangerous mob... but they don't all "work"... or if I make that unwise change, they end up working "far too well", especially at a harder difficulty level.

I'm curious to know what custom mobs people have come across that they really loved.

I'm not talking about costumes and concept. Those are critical too, but that's a different discussion.

I'm talking about powerset and unit mixes that just worked well together. Interesting and tactical problems without instant lose situatuions are the goal.

Your foes were hard if you charged in without thinking? they were easy if your team did it's job? That's exactly what I'm looking for.

Any references would be much appreciated!

If you force the mob to ranged preference and give them a melee set, you may give them a preference to use their secondary. It's certainly not perfect, and hasn't worked for everything, in fact it seems to work best for my debuffers, but even so, it might be worth trying.

Also: consider trying a different buff set. I made one group with only one type of minion. These had melee preference, and fire melee (easy) and thermal (moderate I think). they didn't have any problems healing each other, on high difficulty settings you almost had to think about arranging damage spikes for them... and one of them almost always decided to be a buffer.