Snow Globe

Actually you could, in theory, get 5 costume parts in 1 pack.

You haven't actually read what I wrote. Then again it really shouldn't surprise me considering that you aren't backing down on claims that a majority of players are buying these.

I've said that it was a bad business choice on their part. They are choosing not to sell an item that would sell with a different delivery system. They know it. They are unwilling to take people's money, they are unwilling to to reduce player's stipends (opportunity costs), and they are unwilling to show that they back a statement they made for Issue 21: "Pay for the content and features that you want.", not "Pay for things you don't want on the off chance that you might get the content and features you do want."

And you know what? I agree with this. It is incredibly sad that they haven't backed up what they've said in this case. There was a forum blow up that was diminished by them saying that they were open to the possibilities and that they would look into other ways to provide access to the costume parts. Now we're seven months later and they are saying "nope, we don't want to, but we might eventually change our minds". In other words, they just burned a lot of customer good will over saying one thing then doing another. Do that too many times and you lose customers.

Sorry, Zwillinger has said that he can see the reasoning behind calling it gambling. It isn't gambling to him, but he understands why people think of it that way. He has my respect for at least understanding the concept and why people are upset over it, unlike you.

I would agree that gambling, is an apt description. Whether people agree with that or not is a irrelevant though. They have players telling them "I would buy this if you made it available in another fashion", and they are responding "We don't want to sell it that way." Given that they do like money, telling potential customers that "we don't want your money" when it costs them nothing to produce is a recipe for customer dissatisfaction.

On the other hand, making blatantly false claims like you have in this thread can be shown to be reasonably false.

I did that... with reward points. Only thing is that I got most, not all, of the set along with a bunch of garbage I am not using. That stuff I'm currently valuing as "less than worthless".

I got 15 packs at the end of March, beginning of April. Do you know how much of the crap I have left? Most of it is glaring at me in bright red "email".

Good for you... That doesn't stop me from expressing my opinion that they are making a stupid business choice.

How self-serving of you to claim that other people's morals are "fake".

And the developers, if they stick to this, are shooting themselves in the foot.

You are the only one screaming moral bankruptcy, and even then you're not doing it very well.

Doesn't hurt if the hitter does this.

Priceless, just priceless.

As I told someone else that was in the costume line: It is an often repeated phrase that seems to have been repeated so much that is becomes a part of group thinking. For example, "Use the Force". It may not be everywhere, but chances are that you've heard it somewhere. A meme is the internet version of this phenomenon.

In other words, a silly little in-joke that most people know.

What claim? I'm specifically talking about your claim here:
Where are your numbers for subscribers to this game vs the number of subscribers that bought the packs?

If you meant my statement of:
I can point to any number of ustreams (or youtube archived videos), developer posts, and community rep posts that have stated that.

And I can point to a post from Zwillinger back in November 2011 (quoted below) stating that they had already planned to introduce the second pack even before finding the results of the first pack's sales.

Wow, the false logic of this one astounds. No one claimed that "nobody bought them". However that doesn't even come close to "more people bought them than not" or that a "majority bought them". I'd suggest that you take some logic classes as your statement here doesn't bear an ounce of weight.

It is a game of chance as to if you will get the items you want, and even Zwillinger agrees with that definition:
Like Zwillinger, I'm not going to argue about whether or not this should be considered gambling. It is well known that I don't consider most of what is in the super packs to be valuable, which means that I'm in a position where I only have a chance to get some value from any transaction.

There you go with that "majority" claim again. PROVE IT. The thing is, you can't prove it. You are speaking out of your backside, and we both know it.

As to your claim that they were so successful that they made the second pack. Take a look at this post from November 2011:
They already planned to release more than the first pack. There wasn't any questions as to if they were going to release more. They had every intention to do so. Their planning timeline generally is 8-18 months out.

If they are saying the exact same line that they used back in November, then they have not been discussing or planning anything of the sort. Especially since they have said this week that "We have not decided we want to do that."

They clearly don't want to do that.

That alone, after 7 months, shows that they were NOT interested in exploring alternate means. If they were they would have instead have plans to make them available at a later date. This same mentality has prevented the CoH and CoV box set stuff from going onto the market.

Any proof?

And just like other Tier 9 VIP stuff, there is only so much room in the window, and it has been said repeatedly that when they bring in new stuff for that level, old stuff goes away. This is because they don't want that line cluttered and they don't have a person that can be spared to do the interface work.

I'll quote Arcanaville at you:
Given a number of people have got the wolf pet at less than 100, I would think that the money spent making the pet as not meeting its production cost.

I'm beginning to think that Ironblade just wants to take the opposing side to whatever I say.

Which is my point to Arcanaville.

Given that it was Zwilligner that said that, I'm taking it as true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo9sOxdIvz8&t=50m33s

As I've said, 15 packs and I have not collected all parts. I'm missing 1 rare.

And I already know that I'm not getting the wolf pet. Why? Because you don't set something at less than a 1% drop rate and expect people to get it. Talk about a waste of development time.

Edit:
I've seen many reports where the poster hasn't got the full costume set by pack #30. At this point I have less than a 1 in 5 chance (15.79%) to get that last piece, that is IF I get a rare "card" (which isn't assured).

Eliminate the word "virtually", and I'd agree with this. If they set it up in such a way to be 100% sure that you would get the 11 costume items by pack #15 and the black wolf by pack #50 (at the latest), I wouldn't even have batted an eye over these.

And that goes to show what early feedback (ie. before you put in development time) is for.

At some point the costume bits are no longer able to be "rolled", do these people stop buying the packs or buy more? If they buy more, then there isn't a problem selling them later separately. If they stop, then the other items are not attractive enough and likely shouldn't have been made in the first place.

In the end, I'm somewhat surprised that they aren't saying that they are rolling in the costume parts/vanity pet into the new pack in case someone didn't get them.

They've already said they were giving up said goose by retiring said goose.

I agree with you fully on this.

Ticking off your customers isn't a great business choice. Especially when it doesn't cost you to NOT tick off the customer. Digging in and not listening to people that say "I don't like this way to buy your item, but I'd buy it another way" only hurts Paragon Studios' bottom line. I don't think many (if any) asked for or demanded items be released at the same time as the packs. However, when things are discontinued, there should be alternate means to get them soon after.

As I've said, I've got some of the packs on the live servers (via reward tokens, which delayed me getting the Mecha Set, btw). Most of the items that I got I've not used. Why? It is because I don't use the some of the stuff (Inspirations, experienced powers beyond my paragon rewards bonuses, unslotters, enhancement boosters), I can generally live without (inspirations, rezzes, and reward merits) or I'm willing to pay more for (ATOs).

I agree, all these were positive changes. You very likely sold more (in all ways) because of them. A decision to NOT SELL the items separately after the end-of-life of the super packs will be choosing to not make sales from people willing to buy items knowing exactly what they are getting. Paragon Studios has already developed the product. There are no additional costs to making it available through other means in the store (other than having one person sit down and copy+paste information into the store interface).

Oh, I believe that not everything in the Paragon Market is profitable or successful. I also don't think I'm being unreasonable in asking for another means to buy already developed items after you've finished selling the Super Packs.

I don't think a single person commenting on this subject has an issue with the super packs providing for development costs for the game. What they (at least what I have) an issue with is the complete stubbornness to avoid putting the items to the market where they can be known quantity instead of in a grab-bag format after you've retired the grab-bag. You said you get the idea that some people don't want to spend money on a chance to get an item they want, but at the same time Paragon Studios is pretty much writing off those same people.

Paragon Studios doesn't need to develop the costume parts or vanity pet, those items have already been fully created. They have market codes (as anyone can see with /my_purchases). They have item art for the store. We're talking 12 items needing a market description and being added individually to the store. Oh wait, they already have descriptions (hover over the descriptions in the collection tab). By this point adding an item to the store should be easy for Paragon Studios or at least a known procedure.

And, yes, I know that some things Paragon Studios develops aren't selling well. Or at least I don't hear anyone at all excited that they got X inspiration. Heck, I know one player that wasn't excited by the ATOs (he had 150+ of them from packs, all he wanted was the reward merits).

Did the development team even bother to datamine how many players bought more packs after getting the costume items? Or how about try to get feedback as to what players were actually after in the super packs so development could be focused towards that. This could be extended to some of the items in the store (before they get made, not after), or would you rather see week after week of "yawn, I get to save my stipend again" or "nothing interests me on the market".

Here you are being told, "yes, we want this" and "yes, give the packs a period of exclusivity, but please make it generally available after". I'd avoid using the term "exclusive" though, as there are enough people that think "exclusive" means forever and a day.

And players are saying that it doesn't need to.

As to the "we're not closed off to the idea", from this side of the screen that is exactly how it appears. Especially since the items have already had their development costs paid for.

And they have had over 7 months to come up with an alternative to put this discussion to rest, yet again they have chosen not to.

You get items, yes. However there isn't a guarantee that you will get the items you want. At that point you are gambling that you are going to get the items you want.

It doesn't matter if you buy these from Paragon Points (bought), Paragon Points (stipend), Paragon Reward Tokens, or (not an available option) having them randomly drop in game. You are still buying a chance for an item you want, not a specific item no matter how much you (or the developers) want to white-wash the subject.

That is still gambling on if you are going to get an item or not.

Nope, wrong lesson. For the record, my original reply had no emotion behind it other than bemusement.

I'm glad you do read the patch notes. Ironblade is reading far more "snark" than exists in my posts. At the end of the day, people read what they want into posts.

Or even when specifically asked NOT to... repeatedly.

It only feels that way... The lists are at the bottom of the 1st & second post.

I updated the post after being informed of which category... It was an educated guess as no one had actually earned the badge in beta.

I found it more snarky than my reply to the original poster, if that "helps". Given that the original poster has bee around for 4 years now, maybe a little snark should be applied when they can't be bothered to read the patch notes for a major issue release.

"If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime."

I've never did play EQ or any other raid MMOs, but I can understand the attitude.

I fully agree.