Smiling_Joe

Sigh. I just read this again and it's just plain wrong. I blame Zute. It's all her fault. Bad, evil wicked NAUGHTY Zute!

She typed that part. Reallly.

Now what she should have typed was that you should stick with one accuracy and some damage in the human attacks until later. I meant to advise one accuracy instead of the standard two.

I deserve a spanking for that....

SHUT UP ZUTE! You always want a spanking. BTW the above line was typed by Zute. Stupid Zute. One of these days I'll let Cybill kill her.

Well not now, since you've given away your negotiating tactic!

I quite agree. I don't see the devs ever completely swapping glowing touch out for a stationary pet of any flavor. Nice to dream, but I should probably stick to pragmatism.

But as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a sash...

EDIT: Indulge me in a threadjack for a moment:

I Wants a SASH! - a Kheldian's Lament.

If I had a sash,
How I'd dash!
And I'd sing
'Bout my really wide belt
And its dangly, long thing.

I wouldn't care if it clipped through my waste and my thighs!
I'd pretend all the gasps! were just envious sighs.

Oh if I had a sash,
How happy I'd be!
I'd never switch forms
So my teammates could see
My spiffy new bling
From the mission's front door
to the place where I died,
Lying splat! on the floor.

(anybody got a wakie?)

Oh if Kheldians got sashes all the girls would sashay
And the boys.....
....would all stand there watching the girls all sashay.

I do hope we'll get
Our 'loved sashes one day.
And before I forget:
Just how sexy is Jay!

Okay. Back to the topic now. Thank you.

LOL! I like it...

Tanker: This room looks tough, and Unstoppable hasn't recharged yet.

Defender: Send the veng. bait - I mean Peacebringer - in first.

Peacebringer: Sigh. AGAIN!?

Just to play devil's advocate with myself a bit here, how would this dynamic look on an all-kheldian team? Would eight kheldians be able to each cast their theoretical pets over the same area to stack a tohit debuff that would absolutely floor a spawn's tohit? And would that be overpowered if so - especially in light of the buffs a team of eight SoA's can bring to bear?

I don't remember off the top of my head the exact number, but isn't there a cap on how much a mob's tohit chance can be debuffed? If that's so, then how many pets out at once would it take to reach that cap at, say a 12% (Touch of Fear sized) tohit debuff? This is important because cast times could then be staggered to potentially give an unreasonable amount of time to debuff a spawn's tohit.

But then, when one Kinetic controller/defender with fulcrum shift can floor a spawn's damage for the 2.9 seconds that they're still living before the damage capped team tears them up, how much would it really unbalance the game?

...just thinking out loud...

Oh I quite agree that the fear component would not only be too much, it would be out of theme. My preference would be a stationary pet with a different type of debuff. The only one I think wouldn't be overpowered is a short duration (30 seconds) long recharge (say, 120 seconds) stationary pet that is so bright that it gives a tohit and perception debuff to the spawn. I'd be okay with it being a minor tohit debuff, as well - so long as it's enhanceable.

Or - you know - let the peacebringer benefit form your suggestion

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About Reform Essence with an AoE heal component, the idea I had was to basically allow the PB to swoop in and by sacrificing itself (you'd have to be in Human-form), the PB would be able to heal their teammates from certain death to just above it, but not too much above it. The whole idea is that Reform Essence will become not just a self-heal, but also an emergency power to keep your teammates that are around you from dying. I'm thinking for example about a bunch of squishy Blasters for example (remember that each Blaster grants the PB a bit of damage-resist?) who got into too much trouble, when the PB suddenly jumps in and hits Reform Essence together with Solar Flare. The result? The Blasters get a little HP infusion, the mobs fly about, and the PB is now able to Dwarf-up and taunt any mob that's still giving the Blasters the evil eye. I'm not thinking only about overall performance and the numbers, I'm thinking first about the trick/stunt, and then how worthy is it to include it in the set, and only then, the numbers

That would take some careful timing, but I see where your coming from. The trick would be to get the heal high enough to give them that sliver of life and let them still survive the AoE's that are aimed at your dwarf.

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The problem for me with Glowing Touch is that it requires the PB to actively target the teammate who's wounded. That is something I'd require from a dedicated Healer. That in my opinion is what will make people think about PB's as weak defenders. However, if you remove the need to specifically target someone, but instead require that the PB only be close to that teammate to heal them... close enough to keep them alive... that will allow PB's to actually use their attacks, while allowing them to heal, although not as often, and not as well as a dedicated healer.

Yeah. I'm not a fan of glowing touch, either, and for that reason. Like I said - I'm all about an aoe heal, so long as it's radius is around 10 feet or so. Given what you describe above, I'm willing to support having it heal your allies less than it heals you, but with the caveat that it be for more than a token amount. Make the AoE portion unenhanceable as a tradeoff, but it should be large enough to potentially save someone's bacon even at the hottest point of the battle.

I want moar.

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Believe me, I know what you're talking about, after taking 7 lowbies with me on AE farm runs so they can be power-leveled. However, I'll definitely say that keeping those 7 lowbies alive was my priority since having those solid Radiation Infection toggles up (from a */Rad Controller or a Rad/* Defender) was paramount to having everyone on the team safe, and that's just one example, there's also Dark Miasma debuffs, and Kinetic heals and the list just goes on.

Ah. So you're talking about active buffs, vise the passive inherent buffs. What I said was more than a little tongue-in-cheek, though.

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All true, however, I simply didn't wish the PB to benefit from the power because I didn't think the PB itself needed another tool for itself, but rather another tool to passively support the team.

And I agree with the sentiment, but I still don't see many people taking it, any more than they take glowing touch now. Maybe with a fancy animation... nah. Never mind.

Now, if you were to instead suggest that the pet could affect the enemies, like something akin to an Illusion Controller's Spectral Terror - well, maybe not the fear, but some kind of stun or -perception/tohit power. Kind of like dropping a star in all its brilliance into the midst of them. Well, I'd be on board in the front seat for that.

Or you could have the pet cast spectral wounds in an aoe.

No. I'm just kidding about spectral wounds. Allow me to /jranger myself.

/jranger

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You know, for a moment there, just a moment... I thought you've given me the perfect reason to simply give up on this suggestion, at least the healing/buffing parts of it. So I thought about it a little, and I think I've found a counter-argument. You see, the only reason I'm good at doing what I do, is that I know that unlike a Tank, I cannot protect anyone by passively soaking damage. I need to cleverly use my knock-back, my Hold, my disorient, my fear powers from the Presence Pool to actively accomplish my goal of protecting the team, while a Tank gets to sit there and soak the damage, and taunt and use a passive AoE damage ticker to gain aggro. I'm sure there's more to tanking than what I've described, but the way I see things, Tanks can tank because they're designed to be able to do it passively, without having to work at it. PB's can tank and protect the team alright, but they have to put a bigger effort into it compared to tanks. I merely seek to polish the points in the PB AT that I think would help PB's be a bit more "protectors" of the team as well as damage dealers, and at the same time, I seek to not modify PB's so much so that they can passively protect the team like Tankers already can. Just like Warshades can be controller'ish but have to constantly work at it, PB's can be tanker'ish, but have to constantly work at it. I just want to help PB's accomplish that by streamlining Reform Essence into something that benefits the team as well as the PB, and allowing a PB to create a safe-zone (the locational buffing-pet) for the team's less resistant members, as well as actively increasing the team's overall damage by adding -Res to each PB attack. Believe me, if I wanted to step on people's toes, I could've suggested many more twisted things... (just take a look at the "Quantum Control" power-set idea in my signature.)

Geez I wasn't trying to talk you out of it! I was just clarifying the role of the A/T, and I think we're definitely on the same page now.

I definitely agree with your point that Peacebringers are active tanks. My lv 50 Ice Tank is more than just a meat shield, and does have to work to keep the aggro under control, but his job is made much easier by the nature of his inherent. Everything he does attracts aggro and controls a crowd, whereas a Peacebringer has to be more in their face about it.

Same deal with my WS - in-your-face controlling. I like that.

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EDIT :: The -Res will be the easiest change to be felt by a PB and its team because it will increase the damage from Lv1 to Lv50.

Yep. Pretty much universal support for that.

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The change to add an AoE heal to Reform Essence will not allow a PB to "rock the aura" because the AoE heal component will be weak (it probably should be lesser than Glowing Touch heals for now) and the recharge will still be the same,

Why bother, then? With the recharge staying the same and the heal giving less benefit than glowing touch, it won't heal for enough to make a difference. Better to leave the heal benefit the same for both the caster and those in the AoE, and do one of two things: give it a ten foot radius (verses the 25 foot radius of Healing Aura), or make the aoe component unenhanceable. Possibly both, but I personally lean towards the former. Sort of a "Stand with me in battle and I will protect you" philosophy.

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and if Glowing Touch itself will be replaced by the location buffing pet (I think I'll call it... Light Scepter, and leave you to figure out the animation ), the power (and it's recharge) would come so late in the build as to discourage people from thinking it's a tool that's meant to modify the PB's focus from constantly attacking the enemy to becoming a defender-of-sorts.

I'll be honest, I'm just not really feeling this one if it doesn't benefit the PB. For one thing, it comes at 26 - the same level you'd get Solar Flare. Nobody would take that over Solar Flare. Many people take Quantum Flight at 28, but many more go back and pick up things they had to skip earlier, so taking this power - if it's taken - will come late in the build, after people have endurance/defense problems solved.

Like I said - I'd be on board if it affected the pb, or I'd be VERY on board for a (somewhat weak) mezzing pet like I mentioned earler. Come to think of it, I'd really like a -tohit/-perception pet.

O.o

OOH! A link to a Mid's Build!

--clickyclicky--

But... but... I wants the buffs, precious!

To your first reason, it has already been noted that teammates buff your inherent alive or dead. In fact, in a sick and twisted way they actually buff it better when dead - dead teammates don't run away to heal. Just say loudly in all caps in team chat "DON'T GO TO HOSPITAL. I HAVE WAKIES. NO, REALLY."

In all seriousness, I never feel bound to any stationary aura buff power (like tree of life, for example) in the heat of battle. Instead I use it as a focal point for the battle. I may stray, but that point becomes very strategic in my thinking. If the battle goes well, I'm okay to go where I want and do my thing. If another group is aggroed, or the tanker goes down, or things generally go south, then I can move the battle back to that buffing high ground. I may not use it every fight, but it's good to have.

Think of the Apache "Dog Men" from westerns who would pin their sash to the earth with their knife and there make their stand... their last stand... oops. Forget that analogy.

To your second reason, that's a line of thought more appropriate to the defender a/t IMHO. You're thinking along the lines of Grant Cover for Shield Defense, right? Yeah. Nobody takes that one, either. I see your logic, but quite honestly if you want to focus Peacebringers on protecting the team, then the power needs to be one they'll take. Just being pragmatic, there.


You're forgetting someone. I believe the tanker forum would like a word with you for usurping their "protector" verbiage - they seem to have it patented.

But the tanker is designed to serve as the team's protector, and many tankers seem to also use that to mean leader as well. In fact, they protect a team much better than a Kheld ever will, buffing/controlling powers notwithstanding.

I would be the last person to say you can't protect or lead a team - I've seen you in action first-hand on both archetypes. But that is the strength in you, not the archetype.

Look, I'm all about buffing the buffing tools and giving Peacbringers more flexibility. I'll respectfully agree to disagree with Princess Darkstar and Obsidian Force in that I don't think one healing aura (I believe that is the sticking point) will obviate our damage dealing abilities in the eyes of other players or make them see us as buffers.

But it's the Tanker's primary job to take the alpha, and it's the Tankers who serve as defacto team protectors. Peacebringers can do that too, I'm not saying they can't. But they do a lot of other things as well, and it's important to distinguish between our roles as players and an archetype's role in game balance.

You are a team's protector (and darned good at it) - Peacebringers are many things.

All good, 'Surge, and I'm sorry if I took you the wrong way.

The knockback/knockdown plea is one that gets repeated across archetypes and powersets. Unfortunately, it's never had much traction with the devs. I've learned to live with the knockback through positioning. Tactics like jumping the spawn before flaring so the mobs don't get knocked into the next spawn and placing yourself so that the spawn is always between you and a wall can feel like a pain at first, but become second nature after a while.

So while I'd love to see the kb turned into kd, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.

Well, we do get these nifty story arcs and special enemies and cysts and... right, I'll stop now.

It's widely accepted that the term "Epic" was a bit of a poor choice of words, and mentioning it in the Kheld forums often brings up a bit of indigestion among kheld drivers.

You see, the current story with regard to the term "Epic" is that khelds have an "Epic Story," to play out. Epic=Story.

It's just that nobody buys that.

We're going to get along famously, you and I! And don't worry about telling me I'm wrong. I'm wrong alot.

You're making a good point about this suggestion, taken in context with your other posts. If you can heal others as much as you can heal yourself with Reform Essence, does that overpower it? And if so, what could/should be scaled back? As you say, the amount that it heals others could be scaled back, but then what's the point of having it to begin with? Otherwise, the recharge could be lengthened, but that would reduce its effectiveness as a self heal, and we don't want that.

It's a valid discussion that's worth having, IMHO. And for my part, I don't see how an occasional heal that would heal others as much as yourself is overpowered for a peacebringer, but let's just assume for the sake of argument that it is. There's one thing not discussed in the discussion that probably needs to be addressed: the radius. Healing Aura is such a spammable heal because it has a large radius. What if the radius of Lord Xenite's suggested change to Reform Essence were half that of Healing Aura? On the other extreme, what if it were just outside melee range, so that only those in melee with you at the time benefitted from it?

LX feel free to jump in on that one - I don't mean to hijack your suggestion, there.

The problem with that logic is that it still leaves useless powers in the set. Kheldians were meant to be versatile, so much so that the range of powers discourages cookie-cutter builds. If we buff only the powers that khelds already take, then won't that lead to more cookie-cutter builds? Must we all play Plasma's gold-standard triform build? Not disparaging Plasma at all, here, but I for one would like to team with other Peacebringers (and Warshades when I'm on that one) and not feel like a carbon copy of my teammate.

I agree about khelds not stopping their damage-dealing to heal teammates - teammates buff us passively, and so really I prefer any heals/buffs I do to be incidental. With these suggestions, if I heal a teammate at all, it's because I healed myself too. On any team, no one is going to expect me to drop out of dwarf form and be a healer with one heal that comes every minute or so. No one expects rad controllers to be healers first.

But another point I'll address is why I would support these changes. I personally have no problem with my Peacebringer as a damage dealer. He doesn't do stellar damage, but that's okay with me. I can survive any fight I'm in, barring a surprise damage spike or two (or me doing something stupid) and have enough strategy and skill to prevail eventually. But OmniSurge - even though I didn't care for the tone of his post at all, said one thing that ought to stick with all of us:

That is how we're seen, more often than not. People don't just as weak buffers or weak damage dealers, they've traditionally seen us as experience leeches. This is partially because of the nature of our inherent, and partially because kheldians are hard to learn, and there have been more than a few players - myself included - who would give khelds a bad name when they were first learning even though they mastered them later. Add the irrational fear of cysts to the mix and there you go. Warshades don't have so much of a problem in later levels because the bodies tend to hit the floor wherever they tread. Peacebringers are more single-target oriented, minus two foot-stomps and a trivial stun, and so suffer more from the leech stigma.

The point that I'm making - and the one it seems LX is addressing - is that allowing Peacebringers to give back to the team directly will help dispel the leech reputation and make more powers worthy of consideration.

Especially if that stationary pet suggestion gets to affect the peacebringer too (hint hint LX)

You know, it might be my playstyle, but I can see a use for this as something besides a purely support role. I've always treated an archetype's role as more of a guideline than a rule. I'm one of those crazy fools who took the presence pool on his scrapper. My thinking is that a live squishy is buffing me and healing me longer so I can do that damage, so helping keep them alive in return is only helping them help me kill.

So when I look over at the team window and see my controller's life is going down, I ignore the guy in front of me, select that person's name and hit follow and incandescent strike. (or white dwarf strike, or what-have-you) Thing is, this leaves me vulnerable to an attack from the guy I just ignored, so I generally have to hit reform essence somewhere in there, too. (unless I"m rescuing a rad or an emp)

I would LOVE to have that heal affect them too so I can jump back into the fray without worrying that a stray AoE is going to waste my efforts seconds later.

So you see, it's really all about me

No, there's also Pulsar and Group Energy Flight that are team-mate oriented vise damage, but I would argue that neither damage nor utility are what they wanted us to be focused on.

They wanted us to be a teaming archetype. Just look at the inherent. Now that may sound really generalized, but before you call it a cop-out just think about this: Blasters and Scrappers are damage-focused archetypes. What does their inherent give them? More damage. Tankers - the crowd control archetype - get more crowd control. Defenders get the ability to use their powers for less to no endurance when it's needed the most. Controllers get.... well... more damage, but only as control increases.

Khelds get a good mix of support, defense and damage, but it only comes with a team. Therefore any changes that add team support that don't overshadow the damage dealer or self mitigation roles are right in line with that teaming dynamic.

But again, it's really all about me. I gave the caveat that I would prefer that the pet suggestion benefit the kheldian too, because I've never thought it was fair that passive pool powers like stamina don't carry over into the forms. Yes, you can slot the forms for end mod, but that was more there to pay for the cost of the form. Regen/Willpower meleers get to use stamina and quick recovery, so what's the problem?

Let me lay down a stationary recovery aura, turtle up into dwarf and tank away, and I'll be one happy lobster.

I was intentionally harsh. I don't like trolls, and while I won't feed them with subsequent posts, I have no problem whatsoever with calling them out in the same harsh language they used on their undeserving victims.

But to the point, you've just said it best. Kheldians are not supposed to be the best at anything, but I would argue that damage isn't our key strength any more than support or defense is. Our key strength is our teams. Damage is just one more tool in the toolkit.

For now you're probably better off staying in dwarf or nova until you've played your kheld a bit longer. Take it slow. Let your PB forms stretch their legs and tentacles and get to know them a little more.

All the while be slotting Radiant Strike, Incandescent Strike, Solar Flare, Photon Seekers and the nuke (forget what it's called off the top of my head.) Add a couple more like Pulsar or a heal to suit your playstyle. Plasma never steered anyone wrong, and the gold standard build you're using will never let you down.

But wait until you've had time to slot before spending a whole lot of time in human form. I'd stick with one accuracy for human attacks until later - you'll be in human form for about as long as buildup lasts and the tohit from build up should compensate. If you are starved for slots you could always slot nova for damage alone and let the form's inherent accuracy carry you. I would recommend an attack chain of bolt/blast/bolt/scatter/bolt/blast/bolt/detonation for an almost seemless nova chain out of the box.

Slot your dwarf form before the dwarf attacks. The attacks are slow to come, and at first dwarf will be a defensive stance. Here's something I like to do with dwarf form, though: if things start to go south, eat an orange insp or two, make sure you have a blue and a break free, even if you have to make them. Then eat a purple and the break free, hit white dwarf flare and drop to human form. There, hit conserve power, buildup, Photon Seekers. As photon seekers is animating, cue up the nuke. Since it's cued up while the enemy mobs are still in range, it'll affect them even though the photon seekers knock them back. Not much will be left standing after that, but even so eat the blue and jump back into form. That little double nuke has saved my lobster bacon more often than I can tell you, and it's gotten more than one "WTH was THAT?!" in team chat.

The key part, though, is to eat the break free BEFORE you drop into human form. It's actually a good rule of thumb. Sure, you can be vigilant with your buff/debuff icons, but eventually you'll forget to look before dropping dwarf, and then it's too late. You're mezzed instantly, and losing health rapidly.

As far as human/dwarf attack chains go you'll likely have to get used to gaps, or filling them with form switching until you get some IO's for recharge. Solo, I generally open with the human form quartet: Buildup/Incandescent/Radiant/Solar Flare. Then I switch to Dwarf and hammer for a couple rounds. Here's another trick: make the following macro: /macro stomp "powexec_toggleoff white dwarf$$goto_tray 1$$powexec_name solar flare"

You'll have to make the basic macro with just one command first and go back and edit it to read right. Put that macro last in your dwarf tray. When you've got a mob down in health a bit, hit white dwarf flare, count to three (for the animation to finish) and hit the macro for a double stomp. You'll have a couple seconds breathing room to hit pulsar, heals, or turtle back up into dwarf form.

Okay it's late and this is long - hope that helped. Enjoy your new kheld!

Why is the answer to buffing a given archetype in this game always MOAR DAMAGE? Kheldians have already gotten a buff in the damage department, and I'm fairly certain that calls for more will go unheeded.

Just what part of LX's suggestions takes away from your dps? The -res one actually improves your dps, so what's the problem with that?

With regard to the Reform Essence suggestion, making the self heal affect your teammates as well as you doesn't in and of itself turn PB's into imitation emps. In order for that to happen the recharge would have to be adjusted to be more in line with Healing Aura's. Since Lord Xenite didn't mention anything at all about changing the recharge, I don't think that spamming an aoe heal every thirty seconds (enhanced for recharge) is exactly what you would call rocking the aura.

I'll admit that the "healing aura component that works like the Empathy/Radiation AoE Heal" part threw me off a bit at first, too, but taken in context with what he said later - specifically:

leads me to believe that adding an aoe component and preserving everything else - including the recharge - is all he's suggesting. Xenite, maybe you can clarify that part a little better?

In either case, with the recharge being what it is, I doubt anyone even notices they're being healed by the peacebringer if it happens - what? twice? - in a big battle. Yeah. that'll give everyone the impression that we're defender wannabes.

And who gives a squid if they replace glowing touch? Who takes that anyway? Throw me in the briarpatch of dropping a bright glowing cyst that emits recovery increasing rings ala CoT crystals. I do think it should affect the PB too, since the +def bonus really wouldn't affect us, but my point is that if you're replacing a support power with a support power really doesn't add or subtract from any so-called weak buffer role.

So if Xenite's suggestions give you more damage that your teammates also get, and lets your teammates share in the occasional heal, and completely changes one power that I suspect you skip now anyway, then it really doesn't affect your chosen playstyle of dps damage dealer at all, and I can only conclude that your rejection of them based on the rationale you've given is really a thinly masked call for MOAR DAMAGE.

@Omnisurge:
Shut up and go roll a damned scrapper if you want moar damage. The disparaging and condescending tone certainly isn't welcome here. You want to disagree, fine. But before you all but call Xenite a noob you might want to team with him a couple times. You might just find out that whether he's on his lv 50 Warshade or his lv 50 Peacebringer that the man flat-out knows his stuff. He doesn't need moar damage because he kicks *** without it. And if you think a lack of damage is what's standing in the way of your kheld being POWERFUL then maybe you need to look at your playstyle too.

Meh... 42? 43? After 39, they all tend to blur together. I've been meaning to get this toon to 50 for a while now, but keep getting distracted by scrappers....