Smiling_Joe

Even on paper the new light form is fantastic. It does everything I could have dreamed. If it has one problem in practice, it's that the crash isn't enough.

....for me to notice. I came over from scrappers, so it's easy for me to get scrapperlocked in Light Form. Before I knew when it had crashed because I couldn't attack and I was no longer a glowing ball of light, and it taught me to look for the crash ahead of time.

Now that it has the token crash and it's just an aura - and not a terribly bright one at that - it's going to take some getting used to. But it's still six shades of awesome both in practice and on paper.

But then I didn't have very much heartburn with Peacebringer survivability before these changes. My survivability was below a Warshade's, but it was fine.

That's my problem with these changes. They essentially made all the changes that had been requested most recently - and while they were popular requests, they were made ad nauseum in spite of numbers proving their lack of overall effectiveness, and they only make us marginally better at what we were already good at to begin with.

The new light form is all that and a bag of chips, but my Peacebringer was main-tanking ITF's for level 50 teams from the time he was 35, and could outlast some of the toughest tankers out there. I didn't need more survivability.

What I needed was damage. Turning Build Up into a pseudo rage was a lackluster suggestion back when I first ran the numbers months ago, and it's a lackluster change now.

The changes to the flares are little more than QoL changes to me, but I'll acknowledge that it made a lot of people very happy, and for that I'm grateful, and I'm very grateful that shifting to dwarf can no longer be interrupted.

If you go by the character creation screens in beta, it's clear they want peacebringers to be tanks with ranged capabilities, but the game already has tanks and our ranged damage is... still lacking.

We're supposed to be shapechangers with a flexible role that can change to serve any team, and the current changes are counter-intuitive to that role. We seem to be leaning more and more towards the tanker role, but the changes also remove any and all motivation for taking the tanker form.

It makes no sense.

And I consider the Light Form changes to be a rather large step in the wrong direction. Don't get me wrong. Light Form is now dead frickin' easy to use. I don't even notice the crash any more.

But I can have capped resistances and massive endurance gains on a permable recharge, AND mez protection? What's the point of taking dwarf form if that's the case. If Castle wouldn't give human form shields mez protection for fear of obviating dwarf, then Light Form's current incarnation pretty much made the dwarf fade into non-existence.

I do believe I did. In retrospect, that was more than a little harsh, and you have my apologies.

Conserve Power doesn't offer a recovery bonus, it offers an endurance discount. One of the aspects of LF's crash is that it carries a hefty -recovery component. Or at least, it did. I haven't thought to check before - I'll have to check tonight on beta.

If it still does (and I can't imagine why in hell they would remove it) then you will need to keep conserve power in your build, because even though the crash won't let you recover end naturally for a time, you can still gain end from inspirations and outside buffs. Using Conserve Power right after popping a blue insp will completely negate the -recovery.

And don't worry about offending me. I probably should have included the little winky emote on the last part of my post above, but I like to use those sparingly. They kind of annoy me.

Agreed, but I think at this point further changes to Photon Seekers are just not going to happen, so I've all but given up hope on that front.

I'd love to have a damage aura somewhere, but frankly I don't think it's going to happen either, mainly because - as you noted a thread or two down - Peacebringers flat-out outdamage Warshades outside of the pets, even before the changes in Build Up.

The change to Build Up, in fact, is one of the changes that boggles my mind. I'm not complaining, but it was completely unnecessary. Build Up was one of those powers that worked JUST FINE as it was, the only complaint being that it didn't give enough to the forms. IMHO that would have been better addressed by reducing the animation time of the forms, but if they're daft enough to make it what it is now I'm selfish enough to take it.

It doesn't close the gap between PB's and WS's all that much (as I predicted it wouldn't before closed beta even started) but it's likely as good as we can expect, for the time being.

The most I'd hope for is a reason to take dwarf again.

Question: if you won't post numbers, and you won't post builds, and you won't post formulas, just how are your figures supposed to be checked? Are we just supposed to take your word for it?

Having said that, however, it meshes pretty well with the numbers I've gotten:

Max Survivable DPS 1 Foe:
WS Human: 99 PB Human: 165
WS Dwarf: 345 PB Dwarf: 331
WS Nova: 82 PB Nova: 106

Max Survivable DPS 10 Foes:
WS Human: 876 PB Human: 165
WS Dwarf: 1506 PB Dwarf: 331
WS Nova: 868 PB Nova: 106

So does this mean that you're convinced the two are balanced, now?


Just because you put it in a smaller font doesn't mean Peacebringer players can't read it. I'm old, but my eyesight's not gone yet.

For the record, I may favor Peacebringers, but I play both. None of the Peacebringers were "whining" about eclipse in the beta thread to which you're referring. Granted, Flux Vector could have kept a civil tongue in his head, but for the most part posts by Peacebringer players are fairly well in agreement that Light Form really doesn't need to get any stronger. In fact, about the only complaints I saw were (1) that people (myself included) will miss the animation quite a bit (but not enough to want the old LF back) and (2) that the new LF actually does too much for human form. Well, okay. That last one is mostly me.

Also, where exactly did you argue that it was balanced? The comparisons between the two kicked off with Microcosm saying:

...and you saying:

The more I read, the more I see where you in fact argued that Light Form was actually too strong, because Eclipse was so situational and put you in enough danger to use.

To which I still say you're wrong. You seem to be insisting on comparing the two powers in a vacuum. Taken out of context with the remainder of their respective power sets, you'd have a point, but you have stacking stuns, positioning knockback (as opposed to the more random 360 degree kind), stealth and dwarf form - all of which combine to make the risk posed by eclipse 100 percent mitigatable.

Just like Light Form's crash.

Honestly, I don't know why some Peacebringer players get so hung up on the crash. You look up at your bar from time to time, and when you see the buff icon blinking you hit conserve power and jump out of the spawn. A single small blue and an essence boost later and you're back in and swinging.

In other words - what I maintained there and what I still maintain is that the two powers are roughly balanced. Now I do feel that Light Form benefits human form too much (to the exclusion of dwarf form entirely IMO).

So watch who you're callin' a whiner, mister. Kheldians have enough problems without all the sniping between WS and PB factions. Yes, you might have to take the high road with some people. But if we all stick together it's worth it.

Um... you mean instead of group flight, you'd want a damage aura, not "add a damage aura to group flight," correct?

Just confirming, because the latter would be HI-larious.

"Follow me into the air, squishies! Oh, by the way we'll be doing just enough damage to everything we fly past to direct the wrath of the entire lot right at you..."

I'd take it.

I don't see the developers keeping the resistances in the shields in any amount when shifting forms, whether they be made auto or suppressed. As pointed out before: we have more than enough resistance to go around.

As for the animation - they changed light form easily enough with a swamped animation team...

How? If you're using Shadow Cloak+Superspeed and using Gravitic Emanation beforehand to re-position the spawn and have inky aspect running to stack the stuns I can't possibly see how lag and/or human error could be common enough to be a problem worth considering. I couldn't tell you the last time I was killed going in for an eclipse. Never mind the fact that you can teleport away if you take too much alpha before you get eclipse off.

About the only time Light Form is superior is when your facing things like cimerorans' collective defense buffs or massive tohit debuffs, and even then a dwarf mire will take care of the problem. Bind Eclipse to your human form bind and it goes off before you can take the alpha - EVEN IF YOU"RE MEZZED when you drop form.

And I'd say you're wrong. But don't listen to me. Look at the numbers I posted from my spreadsheets:

Peacebringer Analysis

Warshade Analysis

Check'em out yourself, if you like. They take the current changes into account. But here's the skinny on survivability:

Peacebringer:

Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 165
Dwarf: 331
Nova: 106

Fatal Burst:
Human: 5387
Dwarf: 10773
Nova: 3859


Warshade:

Max Survivable DPS:
Human: 1 Foe=99 10 Foes=876
Dwarf: 1 Foe=345 10 Foes=1506
Nova: 1 Foe=82 10 Foes=868

Fatal Burst:
Human: 1 Foe=1772 10 Foes=3981
Dwarf: 1 Foe=6476 10 Foes=9169
Nova: 1 Foe=1478 10 Foes=3941

Taking the average survivability of the 1 foe vs 10 foes figures on the warshade, you've got scores that are roughly four times higher than a Peacebringer's.

And don't try to convince anyone that eclipse is actually dangerous to use. You can stealth in, stun and reposition the spawn, grab an eclipse and mire all in complete saftety. AND eclipse gives resistance from psionic, which - by the time you're 38 - is rather prevalent among Arachnos, the carnies, Longbow, CoT, the Rikti, iTrials, etc.

But hey- feel free to prove the numbers wrong.

EDIT - And the point about melee damage is kind of moot when the ranged damage of a warshade so far outstrips it. Your point about support might have merit if we're talking about heals alone, but the secondary effects both stun and slow enemies to the point that heals are less necessary. Besides. You're talking about one heal other clone. One power does not make a support role.

Damn. Am I the only one here getting the impression that - in spite of even the current changes - the developers are all wishing HEAT's would just go away?

>.>

<.<


.......psst! YOU! Arbiter Ghost! Yes, you! Go tell that Falconhawk guy that I'll go away and you'll never hear from me again! I only have one price:

A Kheldian Sash.

Which is why I started that thread back in the Kheldian Forums about looking at our inherent! I agree with the sentiment that a little overpowered wouldn't be such a bad thing, but if the inherent is what's holding us back, then by damn let's nerf it in favor of direct changes to the archetype!!

But, like you said, would overpowerint Kheldians just a little bit be such a bad thing?

Especially in the current post incarnate pwnage that has become the late game.

Quite honestly, I didn't understand the reasoning behind well over two-thirds of that post, but the one that really got under my skin was the crack about the inherent:

Bullcrap. Pure marketing drivel. Central to the AT?! Like Vigilance isn't. Like Assassination isn't. Hell, like every other inherent in the game isn't just as central to an archetype to the same degree.

Which is not to say that inherents are all that archetype-defining. If our inherent defines our archetype, then kill the damned thing! It's holding us back.

And it isn't like we're asking them to rewrite the thing! Did Defenders have to pay for their solo/small team buff? Hell no, they didn't! So what's wrong with giving Kheldians a similar buff WITHOUT CHANGING THE INHERENT?

The only risk is that we would actually become competitive.

Having ranted that, however, my personal preference would be the more elegant solution of trading some of the buffs given through the inherent for direct damage and resistance through our powers.

In other words, I would like to see Kheldians become more self-sufficient.

Because an inherent that requires us to team doesn't work well with an archetype that doesn't give anything proportional back to teams.

EDIT - beyond the inherent, however, I don't understand how Arbiter Hawk can look at Peacebringers and Warshades (which are under pretty much the same inherent) and turn around and say he's worried about overpowering Peacebringers!

Maybe a word or two about where he's finding all this so-called power might be in order?

Sigh... yes, him. That fella. Arbiter Falcon. I mean Ghost Hawk. HIM.

::mumbles incoherently to self::

Yeah, I get the whole "Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" shtick, and at one point I'd have probably said something sanctimonious about how our role par excellence was just that: generalists who can caulk any crack in a team.

The problem is that the cracks are already being caulked - caulked with damage dealt by other archetypes.

But there's a fundamental difference in perspective also at work. We - as veteran kheldian players - tend to look a the archetype through glasses that have been colored by the late game (to say nothing of incarnate content), and those testing and changing them have to look at the entire leveling experience - but quite often have experienced the lower levels much more recently than we.

Read that as: they just rolled one up and leveled it up or level bumped it.

For the first 25 levels, Kheldians are competitive. They're even impressive, blooming early with Nova and Dwarf able to substitute for the slotting crunch.

Warshades still have a place in the late game due to the aoe damage, stacking mezzes and pure resistance-capped survivability they bring. Peacebringers, on the other hand, don't have that. At 26 Warshades get Unchain Essence - a mini nuke that carries a stun. Peacebringers get Solar Flare - a power whose knockback has been outed as an intentional limiting factor on Peacebringer damage.

Over the next few levels before 32 Warshades get a toggle stun aura and a spawn-repositioning stun/knockback cone. Peacebringers get a phase shift and an aid other clone.

By the time each gets their pet power (and we all know the disparities between them) the gap between the two archetypes is yawning.

While other archetypes (not just warshades) are getting the powers that bring them to the fullness of power, Peacebringers are getting fillers.

The incarnate game is another story, though. Not just Peacebringers are getting left out in the cold, here. More and more it seems like the new incarnate powers are forcing people into a brute-like playstyle, and incarnate brutes and scrappers are beginning to assume the role formerly held by fire tanks and blasters in the before-time when there was no aggro or target cap and enhancements could be six-slotted.

But that's a topic for another thread.

(and yes, that was a Mad Max reference buried in that last sentence)

Status Resists? But dwarf form already gives that, to the tune of 155%. The problem with Dwarf Form is that its attacks are too damned slow for the damage they do, and the resulting damage levels are too damned low to justify the fiery aura resistance levels.

And (once again), this isn't as much of an issue with Black Dwarf, since it can mire all on its own. (something else that has always stuck in my craw)

And as far as psi resists, I don't understand white dwarf not having psi resists, quite frankly. Eclipse, Dark Sustenance and Cosmic Balance both give psi resistance, so there is at least precedent for some way to plug that hole, but Peacebringers - with their lower survivability and weaker damage - are forced to team with at least four damage dealers to get it an any meaningful amounts? And what good does it do when those four damage dealers can mitigate that psi damage through direct damage for you?

Actually, I see warshade and peacebringer forms performing different roles even from each other. Warshade human form plays much more like a controller to me, although I do agree with the dominator assessment of the Peacebringer human form.

Black Dwarf, in contrast to White Dwarf's tanker, plays much more like a heavy scrapper. Dark Nova.... well okay you've got me there. Nova=blaster, regardless of color tint.

My point is that Peacebringers and Warshades do get different things from comparable forms - and those differences ought to be hilighted IMHO.

Like I said, adding psi resistance to White Dwarf and transmuting Nova's 45% damage boost directly to the powers' base damage would be a magnificent complement to the current changes, and I don't see why that couldn't happen before I-21.

But I don't expect that it will happen before. (or ever happen, for that matter).

Agreed, with the caveat that warshade and peacebringer forms can - and should - compete with different archetypes (as I said above).

Be careful what you wish for, here. If I'm not mistaken suppressed toggles still consume endurance, do they not? Not really sure if I remember that correctly, though.

An autohit taunt would be a start, and a higher hp cap would be nice, but the only debuff resistance that would help a dwarf is damres debuff resistance, and a dwarf's built in resistance already provides that. I'm not terribly interested in regeneration debuff resistance, tbh.

Slow resistance might be tempting, but on an already slow form I wonder how much good it would do.

Actually, thanks for reminding me about the shortening of the shapeshifting animation. That will make a small difference and I'm looking forward to it.


If Nova form had the damage buff replaced by direct damage increases to the powers the cap would be 45% higher... just sayin'.

Seriously, though. One of the reasons the Alpha Slot was such a phenomenal addition to the end game was its ability to fill in the holes in a build.

Let me add damage to my nova, hit points to my dwarf and resistance to my human, and give me the freedom to do so by buffing the forms with something they don't already provide in spades.

I'd much rather see the unique IO give human something it can use, like a recovery buff similar to what the forms give (letting human form benefit from stamina and an additional recovery buff the way the forms do)

For Dwarf Form I'd like to see either a recharge buff or a damage buff.

For Nova a defense buff would be awesome, but I'd take a healthy regeneration buff as well.

Just thoughts off the top of my head.

HI ARBITER HAWK!!!111!! (good to know that he's still reading.)

It's not that we're being impatient. Like I said above, it's just that the post you quoted earlier had a tone of finality to it that more than one person picked up on.

I've still got my fingers crossed.

To be fair, Castle was talking about *just* giving mez protection to the shields, and the changes we have now given capped resistance along with mez protection.

And (just to keep myself somewhere in the realm of the realistic) even then you're going to have to wait until at least level 40 before Light Form can realistically be expected to perform as well as dwarf. (to say nothing of perma)

Before that the forms will still be quite valid, and I'll still recommend that people level up as triforms.

The end game shouldn't be the swan song for the forms, though.

With accolades and set bonuses you can come very close, I believe.

This is actually a very good point, and - human form normally or not - my PB will also have that very same SO build I'm using in my comparisons for that exact reason.

But if I slot level 35 IO sets I"ll still be more effective in human form for everything level 30 and up, and I'll still be at the ed cap for enhancement.

I took a lot away from the tone of the post that Pilgrim quoted:

" we think they’re in pretty good shape after the changes that have already been made."

and

"we’ve made substantial and significant power increases available to PBs in the current build."

...in particular had a definite ring of finality about them that leads me to believe that any further changes to the archetype will come only after a significant amount of data mining. In other words, we're stuck with what we've been given for a while.

If I want to lay waste to a big group, I can hit Photon Seekers followed by Solar Flare, seasoned with Dawn Strike as necessary. Nova will still slightly edge out human form, but I'm arguing that the difference is so small that I'd be more than willing to trade it for the slots I'll gain by staying in human form.

There's more to aggro management than taunting; damage is every bit as much of a factor.

I've seen this time and again on my 50+++ White Dwarf, who can't get a ring to save his life on the BAF, regardless of how much I taunt. In the face of all those high-damage incarnates, my dwarf doesn't tank for squat.

And if I want to tank in human form, I'll take the presence pool taunts - it's not like dwarf taunt is auto-hit.

I'm not currently, but it looks like I will be soon.

Um, no. All that isn't necessary. Giving nova attacks a direct damage increase in lieu of a buff and give dwarf form psionic and toxic resistance is all that's required to bring the forms in line with the human form at this point.

The LAST thing we need is to overcomplicate it.

Heh. It should probably be stated ASAP that giving White Dwarf Flare a damage-buff effect is NOT the solution that would please us...