SilentMethod

woah

My perspective regarding the OAS normalization wasn't an attempt to reward luck over skill, it was an attempt to further the quite obvious goal of OAS in the first place.. protecting the player who just respawned and preventing matches from becoming regular farms of the same one un-saveable player.

You say not being able to play, I say another form of disruption

I vote 5.

Fixing the "-fun factor" .. I dunno, doesn't seem like a legit reason to me. Part of the job of disruption is to make things frustrating / un-fun for the other team. When I go around sleep spamming, my job isn't to kill, it's to frustrate the other team... -fun.

Cage resistance (thanks for citing my reasoning ) = no for the reasons cited above.. and it doesn't seem to merit a major reworking.

I haven't looked entirely into the specifics of MMs, but it seems odd to me that defenders and trollers can fairly easily get from 1017 to 1400-1500 HP, while (conveniently, for your "help MM" argument) MM's supposedly won't break 1000.

Number-fudging aside, like I said, I still don't see a consistent way to help MMs that won't simply hand them the match on a silver platter. Well-played /poison MMs seemingly perform just fine without being cut any slack. Perhaps emulating their strategies would be a better solution...

And like I said, should we start letting Dominators build Domination before attacking? I mean, Doms are pretty weak without Domination.

Again, it seems like a balancing factor for how good MM's can be in Bodyguard. And it seems a little too convenient to cite 800-HP MM's while citing 1600 HP for supposedly overpowered blasters and 2409 HP cap for scrappers. If you assume one has accolades, assume the other does too. MM's can get a decent amount of HP with set bonuses and accolades, so don't give the low estimate to make the case look more need-worthy.

Setup during the 10-second countdown would be nice, but it would hurt MM's who have slow PC's and thus don't make it into the match for the full countdown, plus it'd probably be very difficult to set up, especially with how the arena "disables" all powers in use at the start of a match.

It seems to me like the only ways to "fix" this, aside from calling on the MM to utilize some skill and accolades in order to survive the initial attacks, are ways that would greatly skew the fight in favor of the MM.

Do we let blasters get deep into Defiance and pop a bunch of oranges before attacking? Dominators are fairly weak without Domination running... do we give Doms 10 seconds to build up Domination before a fight? (Please recognize these as rhetorical)

Sorry, any case for helping MM's seems to make no sense, especially after 1) seeing how survivable they can be with all their pets up and 2) hearing how amazing certain players on /poison MMs already are in fights.

Without further ado, since I'm incredibly bored at the moment, the long form of my two cents. I agree with a lot of the issues.. I'm mostly posting in regards to the stuff I didn't agree with right away.

BUGS - Virtually everything listed in the first set of bugs would be great to fix.

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2. Cage is overpowered since it has no workable counters. Add cage resistance (i.e., a decrease in duration caged) to one or more ally buffs.

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I disagree with this. Bringing cagers already has its downsides.. there are reasons people don't bring 8 sonics to a match. It's bad enough that teams find themselves switching toons in and out based on what the other teams are bringing. This would just lead to more of the same. Oh, you're bringing 2 sonic cagers? Brb, need to log in our <resist to cage buffers>. And, in actuality, people already do counter phase effectively either by extreme levels of defense buffs, or the more popular maneuver, phasing when an incoming cage is likely.

Fixing hero/villain balance (especially via epic sets and irresistable damage) is a good idea but also a monumental task. I think we all support it, but choosing the right way to fix these issues seems difficult.

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3. Brutes, tanks, and scrappers are entirely absent from high end team PvP. Consider adding resistance or protection to Cage to some of the sets that aren’t as good in PvP (invuln, stone, ea) and make taunt less easy to shake.

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See above for argument against resistance to cages. Making taunt less easy to shake, though, wouldn't be a bad idea, but it's probably hard to find the right balance. Overcorrect, and we'll have two fire tankers per match keeping the entire offense taunted without any difficulty. And, exclusion by AT is simply an extension of exclusion by powerset. There aren't any dark defenders in team PvP either... it just so happens that the purposes of scrappers and the like are more homogeneous (i.e. defenders can be emps, kins, sonics..) so the entire AT gets excluded. Oh well

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7. The difficulty of leveling and equipping toons decreases the number of people who can get involved in competitive PvP. Make a paid PvP expansion where you can auto level to 50 and get unlimited loot for a toon, but can only play in the arena and PvP zones.

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This already exists to some extent, with players paying for toon PL's. Maybe my response is biased since I'm a poor college student who winces every time I pay my $13 or so per month, but giving rewards to those who pay more seems pretty elitist to me.

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8. There are no true instanced PvP missions. A popular suggestion is Hero vs. Villain in PvP enabled Safeguard/Mayhem.

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..This would be awesome >.> I'll never forget the time a bugged arena event transported me to a player's mission. Would've been awesome if I could trow fiar at them

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11. A good PvP build can be very different from a good PvE build. Allow players to toggle between build so they can use the same toon to be good at both PvE and PvP.

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Bleh. This is one of those things that has no major downside (aside from being a major infl sink for those who want two builds) but I don't really support it anyway. Seems like too much micromanagement, I guess.

Fixing most of the arena bugs is a good idea, except:

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4. The only affecting self timer is unreliable. Testing had it varying between 3 and 17 seconds: a world of difference in an arena match. Please normalize the timer.

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Normalizing the timer, as stated before, reduces unpredictability and results in an even more vulnerable respawning target. Like I said, if one of my jobs on kin is disruption and if I know for certain that a target will come out of OAS in 10 seconds, you can guarantee they'll be getting slept right when that 10 seconds is up.

At least now, players who die can sometimes get back in the action earlier, and sometimes overzealous opponents are punished by wasting their attacks on a target that is in a long OAS. Unpredictability is nice, and it can keep teams from farming a la "player X... fire... they're down, wait 10 seconds and fire again, they won't have any buffs."

And, please fix the teleport-self-while-TK'd bug. It applied to the regular Teleport power as well as the arena temp. That's one bug I've made countless posts about

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1. Observers have trouble following the action in PvP matches. Greatly increase the flight speed of the arena bots. Consider adding an option to grant them +perception.

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Flight speed yes, perception no. Again, reasons were stated before... as annoying as it is to sit around unable to see the action because one team's employing a stealth tactic, I'd rather have them be able to run/hide than have it boil down to a match of "who has more camera spies on Ventrilo."

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Add selectable maps, as well as the ability to eliminate maps from the selection while still having a random pick.

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Yes, please. Smash Brothers Melee style... allow us to keep it random without choosing a specific map, but rather, eliminate other map possibilities. And something to police inspirations would be nice, too.

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10. Many people dislike that deaths aren’t shown on the scoreboard. List deaths and kills for all matches, as it’s shown in base raids.

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I can see that leading to plenty of forum drama and insults. Again, another issue with no major apparent downside that I don't really have any support for. Whatev.

Ongoing scoreboard for observer bots would be nice, though if you add it, then perhaps make it available to those fighting in the match as well. Otherwise, teams with observers on their Ventrilo will have the one-up (knowledge-wise) over teams that don't have the luxury of an extra person keeping score tabs.

I don't really play zones, but a lot of the suggestions seem good. Also, I would actually play an FFA Lv50 zone, especially if I didn't have to worry about getting one-shotted to 1hp by a heavy.

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17. Almost impossible for MM's to recover after 1st death. MM respawns and is unable to resummon pets while opponent attacks/debuffs. There is no challenge in killing an 803 HP MM without pets.

18. MM's Initial setup with cannot be completed before opponent attacks. An opponet can easily get to the MM before second set of summoning animations are completed. Best case setup with Hasten and Force of Nature is still ~41 seconds. MM's need to enter Arena with six pets and equip/upgrade during the self affecting power time.

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From all that I've seen, masterminds who take these factors into account can still fare fairly well. Setup time is just a balancing factor for the fact that Bodyguard is a very powerful ally. Allowing masterminds time to setup is ridiculous, as it takes time away from their opponents' strategy, allowing the MM to conserve break frees.

Even if you allow them to zone in with some pets spawned, that's still ridiculous. Bodyguard makes MM's difficult targets to take down... are you saying MM's should get that benefit without sacrificing anything? The fact that they need to set things up is simply a balancing factor.

...And... guess that's it for now >.>

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Excellent work on compiling the list... something like this has been necessary for a while, at least for discussion purposes, and in many cases for the sake of making changes a reality.

...That said, not to be a downer, but there are a lot of things on the list I disagree with, not because of the basic ideas behind them, but rather because of the effects they would cause. Whether it's smaller issues like giving cameras +Perception or larger issues of normalizing the "affecting self" timer and giving resistance to cage duration, I see a lot that I don't agree with.. and some things I do, like cross-server arena, fixing power bugs, etc.

Since I just realized that this thread is for discussion of these issues more so than a finalized list, I guess I'll post more later when I have time

Side note, I've never *not* had the /ai -> teleport to arena thing work when it's done in the following fashion: one player creates match, then lists it before any arenainvite, THEN arenainvites the person needing a teleport. I've done this plenty of times without fail, sometimes just to move a lowbie from Mercy to Port Oakes in a few seconds.

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Hmm, maybe it's not listing the matches and ai-ing first that causes the bug? If we could nail down exactly what does it (because there've been plenty of times I've not gotten tped and had to trudge places).

For camera +perception, we were thinking the best possible thing to do would be to have it as an option that could be toggled on and off. It's something that a lot of people have frequently requested, but at the same time it's something quite a few people are wary of because they don't like the idea of the other team having spies following your stealthed toons. Do you think it's a bad idea to include it even if it's able to be turned off? I think the language on it maybe got watered down when we were trying to edit down the length of each item. Perhaps we should say camera +per should default to off but there should be an option to turn it on?

I think cage resistance is something that warrants enough discussion to be a side thread. I'll start one and we'll see how most people feel.

Why wouldn't you want to normalize the OAS timer to a consistant value? O.o

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Eh, I'll post later for my thoughts (if anyone cares to read ) on specific issues, when I have more time, but in quick response...

Yeah, you're probably right about the /ai -> teleport issue. I heard a rumor a long time back that NOT listing the match first could lead to no teleport, so I've always listed then /ai'd.

Yes, I'm one of those people wary of camera spies if you give the camera +Perception. Good example is the one match between JAL and FoL on Skyway City map.. as sucky as it was for me as a spectator not to be able to see anything, if the cameras had had +Perception, those of us in spectator could've scoured the map and pinpointed the Freaks' location, essentially shooting their stealth tactic to hell. It just seems to turn fights with stealth tactics into a battle of who has more camera spies. Not to mention a stealthed blaster running over for a quick nuke at the start of a match could easily be foiled by one camera spectator.

My objection to the "option" is 1) when would it actually be turned on? I can't see SGs consenting to this unless it would benefit themselves at the cost of their opponents, in which case their opponents wouldn't consent, and 2) many of the suggestions outlined in this list could be turned into in-game "options." If we're going to option-ize everything... I don't know, I just don't like the idea of that.. it's a pain enough to set up 10 minutes, 2 teams of 8, no spectators and no stealth for spike practices, everyone on the right team, et cetera.. without having to worry about even more options.

What's the rationale for normalizing the OAS timer? The way it stands now, it at least provides some protection for the player in OAS and adds some unpredictability to matches. If I'm playing kin and everyone's buffed, my goal is disruption, which often includes throwing sleep + knockback combos at the last player who died, since there's a good chance they won't have CM yet. However, sometimes they came out of OAS early and got CM already, and sometimes they're still not out. If I knew it'd take exactly 10 seconds to leave OAS every time, you can bet I'd be throwing Will Dom 10 seconds after each kill in order to detoggle and disrupt.

Even in duels, it's a nice variable. If you die and happen to get out of OAS quickly, you can catch your opponent by surprise... or if you get out of OAS late, your opponent might get overzealous and waste their best attacks on you while you're still OAS.

Excellent work on compiling the list... something like this has been necessary for a while, at least for discussion purposes, and in many cases for the sake of making changes a reality.

...That said, not to be a downer, but there are a lot of things on the list I disagree with, not because of the basic ideas behind them, but rather because of the effects they would cause. Whether it's smaller issues like giving cameras +Perception or larger issues of normalizing the "affecting self" timer and giving resistance to cage duration, I see a lot that I don't agree with.. and some things I do, like cross-server arena, fixing power bugs, etc.

Since I just realized that this thread is for discussion of these issues more so than a finalized list, I guess I'll post more later when I have time

Side note, I've never *not* had the /ai -> teleport to arena thing work when it's done in the following fashion: one player creates match, then lists it before any arenainvite, THEN arenainvites the person needing a teleport. I've done this plenty of times without fail, sometimes just to move a lowbie from Mercy to Port Oakes in a few seconds.

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All this over one guy added to the roster. Dude must be awesome. Go us!

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Rogue knows what's up in sonic-town. Sorry to hear about him leaving OS but GL Rogue.

Also, weee thread explosion

Whoa

Agreed.

Heh, surprisingly enough, I've seen some storms do better against ice/em tanks than other "better" squishy builds.

But yeah, dueling is a case of matchups. It's pretty easy for my ice/rad to run break frees and greens while keeping EF on an ice/em tank for 10 minutes... sadly enough, those are 10 minutes that I see as time wasted, just like most builds running up against a well-played ice/rad. ;[

lol... Blasters Power Boost + aim + build up = massive ToHit, massive (power boosted) PFF defense.

EDIT: Oh, you said defenders... eh. Still, FF defender with Power Build Up + Aim, same story.

news and products, Cinder.

UNDENIABLE

dot jef dot nine dot zero dot dot

If you get that change then I get "- Best Taunter" appended to my global

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I bet he has really enjoyed the [censored] storm he stirred up here.

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Pfft, it was clearly my [censored] storm.

Also, there were people who didn't enjoy this? Forum PvP ftw. This thread was golden.

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So full of win

I'm not going to continue talking about rankings and whatnot, TGIA's earlier post about no-shows working out to be losses for this tournament pretty much settles that debate in principle, no matter how it actually works out.

I just wish you wouldn't talk like you're the only SG achieving success -- given recent scores and the like, I think there are several of us, don't you?

...Also, not to get sentimental, but pretty much anyone supporting the PvP community (even with this drama garbage) is being successful as far as I'm concerned. Better than forgetting PvP in the first place. /sheds a tear

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JAL was there all 6 hours of the open fight times and we tried very hard to get matches against every group. Does anyone REALLY FEEL that we should take a loss in that situation when we were ready and prepared?

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One question, If a team fails to show up on either of these nights and you are unable to face them does your team still take the loss as well as the team that wasn't able to show up?

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Yes, if a team simply fails to show up you both take a hit. If this is the case it is more than likely going to hit everyone the same way and effectively cancel it out.

Sunday and Wednesday were chosen as they are usually the most populated nights.

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That last one is from TGIA isn't it?

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I rate this ladder a FAIL.

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*hi5*

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>.>

Drama aside, what happened to the requests to see the math laid out properly, or a ruling on whether "kk" in arena chat means a deadlock acceptance of a match?

Hmm... another 1 to 50, mayhaps?

Wee for double XP.