Shadowstepper

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK check it.

The devs have only culled the enemy mob lists TEMPORARILY. Posi stated that the missing mobs/objects would be back once the dev team had time to recode AE-only versions of them.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've not seen this. I hope it's true. Do you have a link to where this was said?

[/ QUOTE ]

Test forums where they removed the things like Snake Eggs and Vamp generators. If you really want i can go try to dig up a link. Basically it said they were being removed because they are an exploit. The will eventually be cloned and recoded to give AE acceptable rewards then reinputed to the enemy list.

Yes, but you forget, the server is also running the AE umbrella for the mission accross all servers at the same time for all open missions in the architect. You have to plan for the system to be able to handle a huge amount of people doing the same thing at the same time and still provide enough space for everyone to have a fair share. The missions are cross server after all. Paying for more slots is basically saying you are willing to chip in to help buy a bigger server to store your toys and are want a little consideration for doing so.

You forget...the 100k only stores the mob graphic/powerset data and the map/mission options. On top of all that is the AE grouping system as well as the AI for each of those mobs placed in your mission. while 3, 100k mission may not seem like much, there is a large chunk server side attatched to each one. Think of it as a library...your options/skins/powers selected just tell the librarian which of all these books to pull out to use. You don't get the entire library for each person. The 100k of keyed data just limits the number of books you can pull per use.

Hope that clears it up a little better for you.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are playing how we want for our 15 $ we are not breaking any rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

And in doing so make the game frustraing for those of us who like to play in a reasonable, intelligent fashion not governed by go-fever and treasure-lust.

I'm glad you're having fun, but what you do for fun makes what I do for fun less fun. Why do you, by your own argument, have the right to have whatever fun you want at the expense of my having fun? You keep bringing up the fact that you are paying your $15 a month and thus get to play like you like, but what about my $15 a month? Doesn't that mean I get to play like I like, too?

The problem being, of course, that I can't play like I like, because you and your cohorts are ruining the atmosphere for me.

I'm still waiting for someone to justify that. How is your having fun more important, objectively, than my having fun? Because in the end, that's what you are saying. That you have the right, by way of your $15 a month, to make things less fun for me, while I, despite my own $15 a month, DO NOT have the right to tread on your fun as you are treading on mine.

Please. Enlighten me. How do you justify that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please expand on how one group farming is intruding on how you play your game? Maybe if you provide examples, we can see what you mean. Because all you are saying to those of us on the other side is that "You guys should be made to play like I want you to" All we are saying is "We should be allowed to play like we want and you should be allowed to play like you want as long as noone is breaking any rules." Please respond here or in PM and i will debate this with you to keep the thread from degenerating further.

My offer is open to any of the antifarmer/powergamer community who wishes to do this. My mailbox is open. If you can/will participate in a reasonable debate, I am available to for your query.

I do this to minimize outside flaming from both sides of the arguement, because we both have our more vocal minority who do nothing but light matches. Be warned, I will report flaming, but if you really do want a serious debate, my mailbox is open.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have worked 15 toons to 50 by doing content, forming teams and doing content. So I know what a load of BS you are pushing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

One again, you call me names instead of respond to anything I'm actually say.

You're not worth my time, young man. Go back to the kiddie table and let the grownups talk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, restate your points then, because I have lost in your posts somewhere. PM me with them or post them here, and I will do my best to debate them with you. I stand by my foundation that farming/powergaming is a viable enterprise and as long as exploits are not being used, there is no problem. Because you don't like it or the LFF chat generated doesn't invalidate it any more than I dislike RP spam across public channels. I am not talking about spam. Spam is a reportable offence. I am talking about the chat in general. The dev's have provided tools to use to streamline your gaming pleasure and have announced more on the way. If you choose not to use them, it is your own fault, not the game's, and not the other players. If you wish to engage in the debate with me, please feel free to PM or post and I will try to present my arguements to you in a way you can you can tolerate.

So now the arguement has morphed into farmers are bad because they get content removed or nerfed....

And yet, the content that is removed or nerfed is done so because it is an outlier or exploit. WHICH is it people. Do you want exploits removed, or do you just want them set so only you can use them? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can't scream for comm officers to be nerfed, and then turn around and whine that content is being nerfed. They are only doing what you asked them to do. Every single mob that has been removed has been done so until an AE version is coded to minimize excessivly broken rewards. They aren't permenantly gone. As far as siphoning off players....well, I guess you need to find a better marketing strat. I don't hold them in a farm run against their will. They are there because they want to be. Maybe you should just admit that the majority don't like to play your style of gaming and you have no right to force them to.

I will say this. The content types in the zones are starting to become more and more like the rude farmers they complain about. I constantly have started recieving random tells and blind invites whenever I enter zones like Cim or GV....but I guess that is ok now, because you are the ones doing it....

when you click the republish button, the changes should stick. Though I usually give it 20 minutes then go back and run it just to give the server time to actually overwrite it.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think how appalled the older bunch of supers are at the conduct of the younger ones in KINGDOM COME is a better analogy. Seeing that this game was, at some point, supposed to be about superheroes (and villains), not about who has the bigger stable of "50 toons."

(And if you don't even know what KINGDOM COME is - though I think THE NEW FRONTIER is better - why are you playing this game?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Off topic, but I am assuming kingdom come is a comic storyline. If this helps your frame of reference, I haven't bought a comic since the infinity guantlet was split up by Adam Warlock. Now, that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy comics, but it does mean that I no longer activly pursue them. As far as why I play this game, because I like playing MMO's. I have accounts in several, but this is where the majority of my time is. Mainly because I do have an ancient background in comic books. That doesn't change the fact that to me, this is nothing more than a action adventure game. No where have I read that roleplaying or character emersion is required any more than playing Halo.

So it isn't that there is some rule is being broken....

It isn't because I am infringing on your rights as a gamer...

You sole objection is you don't like how I have fun. Ok, thank you. I thought I might have missed some valid point in your arguement. You are no longer a contributory voice in the debate. I would thank you for refraining from further entrance on this thread until you have something more solid. This was one of the few constructive threads on the subject vs the shouting matches in others that have since been locked.

Yes, and I also pluck the wings from insects and torture small animals. It is true. I dont' run content with nothing to offer me with the exception of request from SG members. Why would I take an hour to do something I can do in 15 minutes? Same with the ITF...why spend an hour and a half doing something that can be done in 30 minutes. It isn't broke. I never said it was. What I said was that completing a TF should give enough merits for 1 random roll and the rest of the merits should be scaled accordingly.

Exactly what is your complaint against farming and powergaming then. Maybe I am missing something in the debate and we should try to reframe the message you are trying to get across to me. Honestly, all i'm getting from you is you don't like how other people play the game and hope the dev's find a way to force a considerable chunk of the population to be more like you. Manditory fun isn't fun at all.

[ QUOTE ]
When the Devs set up a fence, some people immediately start trying to figure out ways to climb over it, or dig under it, or go around it, or smash it down with a monster truck. Some people, however, respect the fence and take it not as a challenge but as a sign that they don't want us going there, period. Amazing!


[/ QUOTE ]

What fence are you talking about exactly. Please speak plainly because your metaphores leave something to be desired...we've done evironmental decay, gun control, rock throwing, and now fences. Please just state your problem or complaint other than they won't play like i want them to. Please tell us what rule, ordinance, or policy is being violated that you wish to address.

So if you don't care about reward, why exactly do you care about how many merits a TF drops??? After all, according to you, it is about the content, not the reward.

Please, play your game, noone is stopping you. Just let us play the game how we want too. Is it our fault you don't want to play with us, no. We play how we like, just like you. Powergaming is part and parcel to every MMO. It is a very viable playstyle. No different than PVP, RP, and Story running are all viable playstyles. And yes, the dev's did intend for us to run TF over and over, otherwise they wouldn't be repeatable. And yes, they did set a limit on how often to run them. Once every 24 hours for full reward. So how exactly are we wrong?

[ QUOTE ]
A bunch of cool new guys standing around on a cool new map is still a bunch of guys standing around waiting for you to come along and shoot them.

There are plenty of things you can do with the mission architect now that makes the mission more than just a bunch of guys standing around waiting to be shot and a bunch of stuff to read. And honestly, there aren't that many things in dev-created content that we can't do in MA to enhance the gameplay aspect.

You want to talk gameplay? Ok, I think the final mission of Silver Mantis's task force is way more fun than the ITF, despite predating it by two years. Especially since you can't just team-TP your way past anything that you have to not be an idiot to beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love mantis final mission....I was so hoping that would be a selectable map when architect came out.

shrug, most wise designers avoid most cave maps like the plague. Guess you will have to do some testing yourself and find out.

[ QUOTE ]
To everyone on this thread complaining that Katie Hannon's TF now gives crap for rewards:

That's because you farmed the hell out of it! Did you never consider there might be consequences? Or did you simply not care, because when it happened you'd move on to something else (as you have)?

The apparent failure to grasp the consequences of your selfish actions on the larger game boggles me.

And in response to another post: no, I don't have to be looking for a team in Atlas to be bothered by the spam. Just going there has been stressful to me. Oh, but you have a solution: turn off Broadcast, set myself to hide, wear these blinders, lock myself in a room and shut up. Mass farming's here to stay, right? Yeah, just like endless speed Katies...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so how exactly am I supposed to run TF's? Am I supposed to intentionally move slowly through them? Maybe I should intentionally wipe the team a few times so they all drop. Oh, I know...I should stop and kill every single mob on every map there, making sure everyone stops and reads every piece of dialog from the contacts....

Please, tell me more how I am supposed to find enjoyment. Rewards are lowered because the mission can be completed quickly. You cannot have it both ways...

One minute you are complaining against those who pursue easy rewards and those who find ways to max their rewards. The next you are lamenting the reduction of rewards that everyone agreed was excessive...much like comms. Please, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

As far as your pain upon entering atlas. Yes that is exactly what you should do. Or just right click, ignore those you don't want to listen to. That IS what you are supposed to do..hence why the options are available to use. Your CHOICE not to utilize the tools given to make things acceptable for your standards is the same as choosing to accept them. It isn't like everyone is waiting for you to zone in to the area and then they begin chatting...the majority are probably not even aware or concerned about your existance.

Please remember...there are other players here besides yourself who have just as much right to play like they want as you do. Just because you don't enjoy something, doesn't mean they won't and vice versa. I don't see them trying to remove all the story content to free up memory.

The fact that merit rewards are based on a average time for completion, it is going to be reduced over and over just by the sheer fact that a longer a TF is in the game, the easier it becomes due to practice if nothing else. Even a player that rarely runs a TF, by the fifth or sixth time through, they can steamroll pretty well.

Entirely possible....I am assuming that you are using a ally that has these animations available to begin with.

Or you can make them as custom mobs.

Pssst, he asked how to do something, not how to be ridiculed...there are plenty of other farm pro/con debates out there.

OP: Put an ally in to be rescued. Make it a custom mob. Give it the shield powerset of your choice. Set the AI to follow and passive. The ally is still killable, but won't actively engage in combat, so as long as you keep agro, the ally should be fine.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its amazing the budding shakespears in the crowd always seem to feel that any 1 stars come from "dirty farmers" and not because their prose is dog crap. Just because you like to sing in the shower doesnt make you american idol material....on the other hand, after hearing some of those..maybe it does

[/ QUOTE ]


Umm, reading comprehension class?


There are farmers that have admitted to this, and I have caught missions with 5-star ratings and 100+ votes suddenly getting a large number of votes that pushed it to 4-star.


BTW, I have one arc. It's currently 4-star and never had anything lower than a 3. (And I use a global handle that is different from my forum handle, so I don't have to worry about being rating griefed by forum trolls.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel happy, the flip side of the coin are not only 1 starring missions but reporting them even though it is not against the rules unless an exploit is built into the mission.

As far as finding missions, I recommend asking around, using the forums, my personal method is keeping a list of authors I liked and occasionally checking to see if they had anything new. Once more I ask, if the majority of the playerbase is doing farm runs...SHOULD those missions be towards the top of the mission list to facilitate the majority's needs?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Attitudes like that have driven more people away from MMO's than anything else short of game shut down. Thank god I never came across you when I was new to the game or I would never have gotten past the free month from purchase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, you think I shot him down? I explained to him what they were and told him to run the tutorial, and showed him how to use Help.
But I sure would've not expected that from a 50 brute in Gville.
The mobs you fight in Grandville are not designed to introduce you to your AT, and neither is the LRSF. My problem is seeing these people in Grandville, trying to join LRSFs. There's a place and a time for newbie questions about enhancements. It isn't an LRSF team. It isn't Grandville. Someone who has farmed a farm mission for 50 levels is not going to know how to handle themselves in a 50 mission with most mobs, much less Knives, Malta, or some of the really fun things the real MA designers are coming up with that challenge oldschool players.

Not only is it bad for the teams these people join, it's bad for the players themselves. Would you want to go up against Malta or /Electric Anything mobs at 50 without Stamina, unenhanced? Is that your idea of fun, especially as a newbie?

This is bad for the long term growth of the game. Really, really bad. People will get to 50, play there, get decimated, confused, and unsubscribe. Or just stay in farm missions until they get bored and unsubscribe. Neither of these are preferable to getting new, long term players and community members.

Also, as a sidenote, knockback is fantastic when directed properly. I have an Energy/Storm corrupter who can prove that to anybody. As long as you're "Pushing Mobs into Walls together" and not "hurling mobs throughout the map" its a great tool. (Though playing ping-pong with mobs when solo is hillarious and I engage in it often.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. The RSF is the perfect teaching ground, especially since you have examples of said hard mobs. I used it as a training ground quite often. You know why? Because I always had a few key people to ensure I would take a victory regardless. If you have a sturdy brute, a fair corr capable of mitigating damage, and a mind perma dom, the rest really can be almost anyone who isn't afk.

And yes, while kb can be an effective mitigator, it is not something to be turned loose by the average fresh player learning the game. I have seen many new KB players kicked mid mission because of lack of CoH mechanics. But i don't know many who didn't have an energy blast toon in the first few toons of their free trial. Now will it be as fast or as neat as a team who knows how to stealth, knows the ins and outs, has decked out build to maximise their powers...no, but that hardly means it won't be done. Rule 1 for recruitment, recruit what you need to win first...then bring whomever else with you.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know my first character was a energy/energy blaster and i thought the more KB the better...besides, it just looked cool.

[/ QUOTE ]
After almost 6 months I still build NRG/NRG blasters like that. It is cool

Problem is, the overnight 50s will have a steeper learning curve by far than those of us who took the slow road to 50. Not having a good grasp of what your powers can and can't do isn't so bad when you're fighting Skulls or Family on Villainous, but it will get you killed very quickly indeed when you join a team comprised of people who've been running Relentless since the mid 20s and are fighting Malta or Nemesis.

Which could, in turn, lead to the new player becoming frustrated and disillusioned, because he's got this level 50 character and he's not nearly as powerful as he'd expect to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I have become jaded by running so much on my tricked out brute. There is nothing short of an RSF that my brute can't handle, especially if i have even a remotely active group doing anything but being afk at the door, even if that is just soaking some damage while i kill the av's. So the curve is steeper? so what? i know it was quite a long while in game before anyone pulled me aside to teach me some tricks of the trade for building in coh. If people like the above poster just do the OMGZOR instead of helping them, then that is the people who leave never to return. I am an officer in the number 8 SG on Freedom. I constantly give pointers out to my coalition mates, especially new players. I make it a point to duo with them on a similar build and show them techniques, build pointers, slotting strats. I always discourage anyone farming their first character up. HOWEVER, I don't boot someone who does. I don't condem them. I don't point and laugh. I do what I can to teach them what they are doing wrong and run them through respecs when needed. If you don't want to teach the new players, I suggest you atleast stay quiet over in the corner for those of us who will, can without you scaring them off.

And I suppose your first character was a masterpiece of build engineering off the block?

Just because they didn't have vet badges doesn't they were locked away in the AE. It just means they were new.

Did you stop and help these people, give them pointers to their builds and play style?

Did you point them to the forums where they might find help with their chosen AT?

Or did you just OMGZOR NUBS IR213374U go away?

You don't come into this game knowing everything. I have seen numerous people from other mmo's come here and try to build like they would there. Brute..huh, must be evil tank..more taunt is good. I know my first character was a energy/energy blaster and i thought the more KB the better...besides, it just looked cool. It was 6 months before I had found an AT and power combination I liked enough to actually reach stamina. I didn't start including hasten in my builds for another 3 months or so....

So where do you get off downing new players for what they don't know? Did the farmers confiscate some instruction manual to awsome builds that is now included in the box set? If you or anyone else doesn't help them, how are they to learn?

What you call a nightmare..these newbs running around...I call a blessing. Because you know what? I still have that energy/energy blaster. He has gone through so many respecs and builds it isn't funny, but I would delete my ss/wp brute before i would get rid of him. The fact that these new faces are here should give you hope and faith that the game will keep bringing in new players and new subscription dollars. What you call nightmare, I call fantasy.

Attitudes like yours have driven more people away from MMO's than anything else short of game shut down. Thank god I never came across you when I was new to the game or I would never have gotten past the free month from purchase.

And I still say that by Positron's own letter, while it may not be intended, it isn't outlawed either. The current system is what the dev's implimented as acceptable. Until it is changed, one way or another, we can make the missions as we see fit. By your definition, ITF is an exploit because the sheer number of EB's and bosses leads to much greater than normal exp and rewards. That is no different that what the farmers are doing with the exception that
1) there isn't necessarily a level requirement for the content
2) you don't need atleast 6 people to start

People who mention gainig 18 levels a run as unusual have obviously never gone into a liberate TV mission with a 46 mentor at lvl 1. I often used that mission to go from 5 to 20 just so i could get to stamina. Comms are a statistical advantage, it is being fixed in the patch on test. But farming a mission is not. Period. The only difference between modern farming and the previous issues was the fact that you had to pay to do it usually and that detered most people. Now you can do it at will...

As far as too many tickets for doing something. I personally feel merits are too low for TF content. I feel baseline should be a TF is worth 1 roll and the rest of the values adjusted from there. Once more, the powergamers can pull merits in at the same speed as tickets. Me and my crew had what we called the hour of power...100 merits in an hour redside. We did this every night together. The current model? Now everyone can hit such levels without having a SEAL team going through. And what is the effect of this....the market has significantly higher supplies of recipes. Everyone can now afford to trick out a build. The only things that require large sums of money are the Ultra demand (lotg recharge, numia unique, etc), which are coming down slowly, and the purps which are decreasing in supply...but they are supposed to be the ultra rare anyway. There are no more pay farms, which put a considerable hurt to the RMT crowd...especially with the market values of everything decreasing as well.

All of this, thanks to farming the architect missions.

You cannot punish or ban playstyle. The minute you try to ban the powergamer is the minute this game will die. Powergaming is the opposite end of the spectrum of the roleplayers. The minute you add numbers and values to things, powergaming will look for ways to maximise them to their advantage.

Just because there is an advantage, doesn't mean it is an exploit. Otherwise there would be no difference between a grav/ff and a fire/kin. And if there is no difference, why bother with the different powersets or AT's at all?

No matter the content, powergamers will find a way to max their rewards. The only way to stop a powergamer would be to hardcap the amount of reward possible per day, hour, week, whatever. The moment you limit how much your players can play in a pay to play game, is the moment you sign the suicide note for your game. (and yes i know ther eis a ticket hardcap, but since it is the same as the maximum tickets you can hold it is moot)

[ QUOTE ]


I understand they must make changes to manage things. Contrary to what some posters here say, making a 50 in 2 days is very far from the norm. The same thing was possible under preI14, but very rare. Most people like to sleep and take a bio break sometime in a 48 hour period. But a good pl'er could do it. But it is a little too easy now. My hope is that the devs decide to trim, not hack. No chainsaw vasectomies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was very possible assuming your bank account was high enough to constantly fund paying for Lib farms with a 46 mentor. The difference is now the rather large barrier of 15 million per run that a good lib farm was garnering is no longer there so more people are taking advantage of it.

(15 million comes from broadcast on freedom server the last week or two prior to architect going live)

Sure there is risk...

Lets see, there is the hami.....

<.<
>.>

..and the Hami...

oh wait, I guess i could roll some nonoptimal toon and then everything is challenging...including green mobs.

Challenge is again a function of perception, preferance, and build. What I find challenging or down right impossible to my rad/sonic corruptor, I find a cake walk when on my ss/wp brute. Then my corruptor only has SO level slotting and is built for team play, where my brute is fully decked out with all the bangs and whistles and geared for mass destruction of anything standing before him.

Risk is relative.

Tell ya what, lets rebalance the game so that everyting is risky to my ss/wp brute. where bosses are minions, eb's are lt's, av's are bosses, gm's are EB's, and the Incarnates are just plain ole AV's. That would make me loads happier. I doubt, however, many outside of the powergamers would like such a fiasco. As is evident with the challenging content currently present in the game. Heck I would even be happier with a higher difficulty setting or three on the slider bar.

Poor example. No TF redside has to take longer than 45 minutes if you choose. I can run the mantis in just over 30 min for 38 merits. That doesn't mean most people can. Katie gives crap because it takes far less than 30 min to defeat it. Merits are based on average time for completion. This is also why the RSF only gives 25 merits. It is a go/no go type event..either you win in short order or you loose and loose soundly. I would recommend you find something better to measure against personally.

This isn't to say that ticket rewards aren't out of wack on the high side and that they weren't out of wack on the low side on release. The devs have stated they are not set in stone and will be adjusted accordingly, just like merits.

However, I will submit, even if they manage to find an equilibrium for ticket reward vs merit reward, the AE will still be the medium of choice based on customability as well as pick your own loot, and the lack of a team needed.