Shadow_Fire

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You just used (defeated and exploited) the chiefs of the four major factions for a mission directly on behalf of LR. First, that pretty much puts you into Arbiter-land. Second, you'll need the title to keep all four lieutenants from ganging up on you after pulling that stunt.

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Exactly, its Recluse's way of clearly showing he approves of what you did. That he won't approve of any of his Lieutenants being caught seeking revenge against you.

Think of it as the Totalitarian version of an Honorary Doctorate with a side order of License to Kill. Your protected, but aren't actually given any responsibilities. Other than being Recluse's go-to people when something huge needs to be taken down.

SPOILERS AHOY! You have been warned!


Much of the text of the new SF is only visible to the team leader, so here are screenshots of all the text for your reading enjoyment. I'm missing the initial mission briefing, as I goofed and forgot to hit printscreen.



'Cuda sends us off on a simple job to pay her rent in city hall.
We get a security code right off.
Holo Man has something to say.
Ms. Liberty isn't pleased either.
Time to talk to Barracuda.


We're off to the next job.
And we get to baby sit too, how nice
Mueller isn't hard to find at least.
Numina seems to think this is a bad idea.
A little more talking.
We decide to see what happens when someone isn't there for the cutscene.
Apparently nothing.
The 5th seem confused as to the nature of Mueller and the Reichsman.
Reporting back to Barracuda.

I'm ticked too 'Cuda. After all, its your fault!
She escalates the call to her manager. Recluse doesn't want to start a war it seems.
Its nice to get some respect.
Do you think I scare him?
Time to rumble in Boomtown. Sadly, no one will notice if we trash the place.
Der Unterfurher shows up.
But isn't very successful. Nor is the Oberst.
Time for round two with Reichsman.
While it went far better than our first meeting, I still wind up lying down on the job.
Calling 'Cuda to report in.

At least she knows who to talk to for tech support.
Time to go to Axis Amerika and kick some behind.
While we relax by beating up fascists, the real work gets done.
Time for a recap.
Thats a whole lot of text.

Some things you have to explain in person.
Using small words and drawings, I start to explain.
Egads! She actually does have a brain!
Crazy Smart, and stunningly handsome I might add!
I hope it works too, fishy.

Back to talking to the upper management.
She knows she's not in our league!
Lets see what Recluse has to say.
Like all good masterminds, Recluse lets his you come up with the plan. So he can blame you if it fails.
We'll take very good care of them, honest!

Herr Krogh isn't much of a speedbump.
Black Scorpion isn't very bright.
Sirocco and Mako "join" us.
Pity for Mako, we don't need him there to use his idea.
Ghost Widow is no one's fool.
But she sure has a funny way of helping Arachnos.
In all the chaos, I forgot to break out my camera. We lasted a long time against the 5th.
Reichsman isn't very pithy.
We take the big cheater down, despite Black Scorpion's power being worthless.

Lets recap again.
Not a whole lot has changed.

One last conversation with Recluse.
Dibs on the Machine! Aw, poopie!
I wonder if he's mad?
Wherein we all get our reward...
And thumb our noses at the less than useful Barracuda.


I also took screenshots of some of the temporary powers available to brutes. With all the names being the same, I missed some. If you still have temps from the fight active at the end, you still get a second set upon completion. Some of which even have different effects.

Ghost widow's Click power for Brutes.
Gost Widow's passive 1
Ghost Widow's Passive 2
Sirocco's Passive 1
Black Scorpion's Passive 1
Black Scorpion's Passive 2
Mako's Passive 1


Well that's the whole load of them. Nothing left to do but thank Arbiter Prefontaine, Chaos Ex Machina, Tangent Requiem, Radium, Nisstyre1, War Spyder1, and Angel of the Isles for running the SF with me and spending the extra time testing it. I hope you all enjoy reading the SF's story!

Thanks for hosting the event! Its great to see others take an interest in it. I'm sorry your raid leader crashed out, it would have been nice to get away with just attending a raid for once.

I look forward to your next raid! You should contact one of the Hamidon-victory operators when you have a time, and ask to have your raid listed in the MotD. While the channel is a ghost town currently, its the most logical one to use. If you need help with anything, look me up, I'm always happy to pitch in wherever I'm asked.

Personally, I like Mildays_Knight's suggestion. It does exactly what I've felt for years a Defender Inherent should do. It makes the secondary work with the primary in much the way Gauntlet does for Tankers. I think that the Endurance discount should be slightly higher than the Recharge bonus, just to make sure the endurance burn isn't a wash.
While it wouldn't benefit some Primaries quite as well as others, it would benefit all secondaries evenly regardless of Primary. Unlike current Vigilance. Even Force Fields could make decent use of the recharge bonus, only Sonic Resonance looks to me as if it would gain next to nothing out of the Primaries.

As to a power boost effect instead, I just can't see that one flying. Even if Castle didn't hate Power Boost, the effect would either be so trivial as not to matter, or wind up overpowering. Defenders tend to be really close to the limits of what should be accomplished with buffs and debuffs.

One other way to deal with Defender issues outside of a Negligence change, would be a minor damage buff. From my limited studies, as low as a 1 to 3 percent increase in damage could remove a whole attack needed to defeat a minion or lieutenant. A savings of at least 4 endurance per foe. For perspective, I'm talking about changing the .65 modifier to .67 at most. Against anything tougher misses come into play, meaning only a ridiculously high damage boost would be noticeable in play, making them irrelevant for any investigation into the matter.

All secondaries would need to be looked at, but if enough of them have the sliver-of-life issue, a tiny change could make a big difference when solo. I've only looked at Archery so far, so it may not hold true across enough sets.

Even just counting the Defender's hit points toward Vigilance would be a tolerable step in the right direction. Though I'd much, much rather see Miladys_Knight's version in play.

I think we can all agree on at least two points:

1) Defenders are more or less fine on teams. Any issues that appear for Defenders on teams tends to come from specific powerset problems more than anything. While Corruptors coming heroside with Going rogue may reveal new problems with the player-base's mentality, Defenders have similar issues with Controllers and still manage to be popular on teams. Teams will continue to do what they always have: Take whomever can offer the de/buffs they want, regardless of AT. Any change to Defenders shouldn't make Defenders perform drastically better on teams.

2) Vigilance is quite possibly the worst inherent in the game. The reasons have been stated repeatedly in this thread. Namely, it does not benefit all Defenders as evenly as other AT's Inherents benefit them, and it has less potential impact on solo play than even Gauntlet does. (Gauntlet at least allows Tankers the option of skipping Taunt and taking a different power. Vigilance does not offer such to Defenders as it does not function when solo.)


Furthermore, I think most will agree Defenders have a couple other issues.

A) Defender DPE is more or less the worst in the game, outside of the influence of certain Primaries. Thanks to Containment, even Controllers have DPE that is competitive or exceeds that of a Defender in absence of a de/buff set or when comparing using the same de/buff set. This is due to both having the second lowest AT damage modifier (and unlike the last place Controllers, no AT wide damage boost). Exacerbating this, many Defender secondaries seem to leave enemies with a sliver of life, requiring the expenditure of excessive endurance to finish the job.

B) Defenders tend to be the slowest soloists in the game. Obviously certain Primaries are vastly superior at this, but in those cases only certain Controller combinations wind up worse. This is primarily the result of A, but low damage and the existence of Primaries with low amounts of powers available solo compounds the problem on average.

Does this look like a good list of Defender problems to everyone? Does it sum up all the important issues regarding making any changes to Defenders?

If enough people are interested tonight, I'll try running one again to make up for tonight's fizzle. If not, the next window is the weekend of July 18th, but I'm not planning anything yet. Hopefully despite the painfully long raids I've run, we'll get more interest and can get enough people used to things to get the times down to something fun.

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Instead of thinking of AVs as munchkins, look at it from a comic book angle. Lord Recluse isn't an AV because he's better than you, he's an AV because this issue he's appearing in a team title rather than a solo title. One issue it takes the entire Avengers to take down Doctor Doom, another Spider-Man punks him by himself. AVs are the game's mechanical version of writer's fiat.

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Provided they scale down to elite bosses, it doesn't really matter anyway. That's a reason why it actually work. Thank our lucky stars for that particular change.

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Anything outside of team only content does. Yes, its one of my favorite changes so far. Now if they'd only do something about the PToD on EBs for the poor Dominators. (Or just do something about that dumb cludge in general, like put any thought into it.)

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Far too much has gone on in this thread for me to properly comment on the bulk of it, so I'll stick with the original question.

Signature characters should be AV rank.

I think the the problem with AVs is that there is a disconnect on intent. The people that are unhappy with them see the AV rank as the character's natural state. A juggernaut of power reminiscent of the old Mary Sue that no player can ever match.

Instead of thinking of AVs as munchkins, look at it from a comic book angle. Lord Recluse isn't an AV because he's better than you, he's an AV because this issue he's appearing in a team title rather than a solo title. One issue it takes the entire Avengers to take down Doctor Doom, another Spider-Man punks him by himself. AVs are the game's mechanical version of writer's fiat.

Certainly it might be nice to have a bit of in game evidence to support the idea that these guys aren't naturally better than you. Some overblown mooks, like Hopkins, might simply be higher level than you are right now. If Hopkins showed up in the 40s as a mere EB, it might send the message that when you beat him on Manticore's Task Force, he may have had AV stats, but you were really just fighting a bum ten levels higher than you. A few select characters showing up this way would imply that many, or most lower level AVs are really just tough because you con gray to them, not some special class of power you can never reach.

I still wouldn't mind far more engaging fights with multiple foes or against less moronic AI, rather than against mountains of bigger-numbers-than-you-get. Thankfully, the new SF shows that the Devs are working in that direction. Sure Reichsman is the biggest bag of hitpoints so far, but there are more complications in that fight than any other.

Using the strat I sent Enchantress in game, or a published guide? Could easily post either here. However if its new, I'd love to see what you've come up with.

Thunderous Blast
108.44 base damage for sure, times 4 for being at the damage cap, equals 433.36 Damage. Plus the chances for additional damage. And you don't need a single enhancement in it to do that. Fulcrum Shift does it for you.

Edit:
Whoops, misread. Anyway, look on Red Tomax, you can see for yourself it adds up.

When in doubt, bring something with a hold. That's the part that needs the largest number of people to contribute to. Every other task could be accomplished by about 12 people combined in a pinch. But if you can't hold the Mending Mitos, you can't win.

Of the buff sets the raid can use:
3 Empathy, 1 Kin, 1 Force Field or Sonic, 1 Dark Miasma, plus another 3 or so with a targeted heal. Special mention goes to Oil Slick WTH?!
Some plans call for more Empathy than others, but 3 does the trick if organized right.

They might have a more picky plan than I've been using, but its easy enough to adapt as long as you have the holds.

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RE: Nuke- You know, when I got to work today I kept thinking "what Nuke was he talking about?" then it dawned on me that I wouldn't even have a nuke and thought that maybe you meant the teir 9 for electric. But that was more like Rain of arrows than a nuke. So it's kinda good you mention that you were a little confused cause I was really confused. lol

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Electric's tier 9, Thunderous Blast, is a nuke. Complete with endurance crash and long recharge. The only thing it has in common with RoA is it works at range unlike other Nukes. As a Kin though you can use it like mad, just nuke, use a CaB insperation and Transference to get right back into things. With fully saturated FS you may even impress nearby Blasters.

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To Shadow: I just don't like ID for how short it is. Seems like as soon as I apply it, it dies. It is just more annoying than a team yelling SB PLEASE! Plus No one ever cares about it. you give it to them and they could care less.... but forget to SB and they'll tear your lungs out. Seriously, if I make sure everyone has SB, then they are all good.

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I mostly us it on other Defenders/Controllers that have a similar power. That way at least one of us doesn't get mezzed, preferably both if they reciprocate. (And then only before a fight, I'll kill the mezzers myself before another one is needed.) Other than that, others should count their blessing if they get any such power put on em. Plus the afore mentioned TF situations.

The duration is too damn short. All of them should be 3 to 5 minutes if they are to be buffs, or a tiny casting time if its meant to be a reaction power. (Glares at Clear Mind.)

I'll be there, can't keep me away from a Hamidon raid!

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I had ID for awhile and it never really mattered as I solo more than team. Plus the short duration isn't something I get excited about.

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ID has massive tactical importance in places like the ITF or STF. Besides, you can use it as a mule for Steadfast Protection KB IO, in effect treating it as a free to run Acrobatics while solo. (Its not like anyone will notice that you didn't slot it for Resistance. ) If your not going to run many TFs, go ahead and skip it. If you are, your team will appreciate you having it.

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Ball lightning? Wow. I never expected someone to tell me to take that as it's rather weak IMO. Yes, it works on groups of foes but: A) If I am fighting groups, I am fighting in a team where my time is better spent BUFFING the group than fighting... something most kins forget usually and B) Again, I solo alot. I would sooner get Zapp (the snipe).

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If your running on difficulty 2 or 4 (and you should be once you can take on a boss comfortably, more targets= more damage from FS), or heck even 1 half the time, Ball Lightning is a big source of damage. The DoT effect makes it look weaker than it really is. Without it I wouldn't be willing to solo Rikti in the RWZ, my damage would just be too slow for words.

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Too much accuracy is like too much money: No such thing. And reading a couple of Kin guides... not too many people out there disagree with that for kins as they need it for almost everything they want: Transferrance, Transfusion, Falcrum Shift, Siphon Speed, and of course, their attacks.

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90+% Accuracy when you have accuracy set bonuses is just plain overkill. You can use those slots better. If your mostly solo, at best your fighting +3s, meaning 60% ballpark gets the job done, and less for lower level foes.. Heck most of those Kin guides are so old that 66% or so was the suggested slotting for two accuracy SOs.

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In so far as stamina, I have played with and played without. I just perfer to have it.

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I've never bothered with it on my Kin/Elecs, never had the need. Transference is just too bloody good. If you were going to run Leadership toggles, you might see a bit of need, but then you'd be loosing out on even more good powers. I suppose if your real antsy about endurance its a psychological bonus, but when you can get a full refill every 20 seconds or so, why bother?

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and last... Second Build? I have sooooo many alts that the second build would never happen. Jeez... Market is so high right now that I wouldn't dump that much cash on one toon.

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I never said IO the thing. Buy SOs for it at 22 and none for the original build. Then at 27 when you'd be looking for IOs or replacement SOs, you swap back to build one and enhance that. Leave build two alone and never look at it again. All it costs you is 6 full levels without IOs that you may or may not have taken, and a second build you weren't going to use anyway.

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I posted more to get thoughts on the some of the sets and if it was worth getting tactics. The Kin guides say you should so I think I am leaning towards it as I have it on my fire/kin and I do notice a difference as to having it and not having it. Thanks though.


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Tactics is an alright power, but its an endurance pig for little gain solo. Total personal choice, I don't bother, too many other good powers to take instead. If you do take it, consider it in trade for some of that accuracy overkill you have.

Go VS, Repel is counterproductive to a Kin/Elec's strengths. VS is a bit annoying to use, but it does alright with low slotting (1Acc, 2 Dam IOs does the trick). It does damage even when your held or the like, which can be a bacon saver, plus its decent for AV fights when your busy using your Kin powers and have little time for blasting.

Stamina is a waste on a Kin. Transference does more than it ever could hope to do, you won't need it. If waiting till 26 bugs you, use your second build from 20 to 26 with Stamina to get you through those 6 levels.

The 75 merits is worth the investment for a KB IO, it saves you a whole pool power. Plus you can slot a Steadfast Protection one in Increase Density or Blessing of the Zephyr in Inertial Reduction.

You seem to have far too much devoted to Accuracy, unless your fighting +5s all the time (yuck), 40%, 50% or so is more than enough. Adjust your powers accordingly.

Siphon Power has too many slots, its just a damage debuff after level 11. The base slot with Acc, and a Rech are enough.

Speed Boost doesn't need End Redux, let alone two.

Get some Res and Res/End in Tough and Charged armor for minor set bonses.

Thunderous Blast works fine for a Kin with just an Acc in the default slot. You shouldn't be using it without capped damage from FS after all. The only reason to go more than 3 or so slots is for set bonuses.

Get Ball freaking Lightning and Increase Density. ID is very nice for many occasions, and can hold your KB protection if you want. Ball Lightning is a major source of damage for a Kin/Elec as you'll want to be fighting groups of foes.

You can find positional defense under the Totals tab on the lower left hand side of the window. The same section where the power's effects are listed.

Your build currently has:
--With Mindlink/Without Mindlink
Melee: 57.4%/ 42%
Ranged: 38.1%/ 27.7%
AoE: 38.1%/ 27.7%
You'll have to post the final defense manually, as I did.

Ah ok, while I figured with that team makeup stacking hold protection would be a non-issue, I figured it would be a pain to keep mag 100 protection on the entire team. Great work, always nice to see people succeed when doing things "the wrong way."

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Sorry, im having problems posting a the screenshot of us, im very new to forums

Sorry again

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The image tag doesn't work for anyone but Mods on this forum. That Instant UBB Code for Image has been a bane of newer posters for five freaking years. We can't move to new boards soon enough for me. If your in your edit window you can just change them to links to the images instead, if not repost them as links.

Congratulations on the STF! Looks like you all had a great mix of Primaries for the job. So, how the heck did you deal with that munchkin, Ghost Widow?

Update: Just found out Enchantress has work issues, so the raid was pushed back a week. Its now on the 19th, Friday at 9pm Eastern. However, should enough people express interest this Friday, I'll run a raid, just so it doesn't go to waste.

Castle was playing with hit boxes and made a giant mek man. Somehow it leaked to the MA on Test as Mek Man Gigante, and people have been playing with the huge bot. It won't be going to live sadly. However, it does mean Castle has been working on larger enemies, who knows, we may someday get Rularuu the Ravager!

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What do you mean 'alternate'? Statesman is a gigantic swaggering bully masquerading under a veneer of respectability because he's the least of a large group of dickheads.

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What do you base this judgement on aside from a handful of comics by writers who never played the game?

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Uh... I'm pretty sure Troy Hickman plays the game.

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Manticore too of course. Now that Hickman has been mentioned, the Hickman will appear as his name has been spoken thrice. Of course Hickman's version of Statesman was less of a dick than other writers managed to accomplish.

Take this old bug and reverse it, basically. Instead of the legs staying while everything else goes, only the legs go.

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I think an expansion on this idea is in order.

How about instead, AT-specific IO sets?


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Interesting idea J_B, at the least its something interesting to think about. What about basing part of it off each AT's Inherent Power?

To allow for higher power, lets consider these in the Purple category.
<ul type="square">[*]Blaster Defiance grants a damage buff each attack, and allows powers that unlock at 1st to fire when mezed. The second half sounds messy to work with, so lets go with the first.
Blaster's Boom (Ranged Damage) Acc/Dam, Dam/Rch/Acc/End, Dam/Rch, Acc/Dam/End, Dam/Rch/Rng, Special (100% chance for +X(10?)% damage for N (5?) seconds)
Bonuses would probably include recharge and damage.
[*]Brute Fury builds damage up, but messing with it has issues, just look at PvP. However, Brutes do have a mini gauntlet...
Raging Broot (Melee Damage) Acc/Dam, Dam/Rch, Dam/End, Acc/Dam/Rch, Acc/Rch, Special (100% chance for Mag 4? Taunt in 7? foot area, 5 targets max, duration 10? seconds)
Bonuses would probably include Damage, Recovery, and Regeneration
[*]Controller Containment gives controllers damage against mezzed foes, plus they have critical holds. not sure what to do with them.
Control Freak (Hold)
Bonuses could include Damage...
[*]Corruptor Scourge, damage vs. weakened foes. Not good to work with, but something damage related, or defensive could work.
Corrupted Concept (Range Damage)
[*]Defender Negligence, endurance discount. A special that grants global endurance discount?
Defensive About Healers (Ranged Damage)
[*]Dominator What doesn't Domination do? A special for bonus damage?
Dominating Destruction (Ranged Damage or Melee Damage)
[*]Kheldian Bonuses from allies. Limited mez protection would work in concert with that.
Space Squid Surprise (Ranged Damage or Resistance)
[*]Mastermind Supremacy buffs pets. Seems like the place to work from.
Mastermind Your Manners (Pet Damage)
[*]Scrapper Criticals don't strike me as something good to mess with. Closest would be a proc, but thats just plain boring.
Scrapperlock (Melee Damage)
[*]Soldier of Arachnos Gee, mini fitness, how inspiring! I guess everyone could use extra Recovery.
Spider Bite (Ranged Damage, Melee Damage, or Resistance)
[*]Stalker Critical hits. Unlike Scrappers, this functions on an outside variable, it may be possible to tweak it. Such as giving the power its in a greater chance to crit. Otherwise, I have nothing.
Restraining Order (Melee Damage)
[*]Tanker Gauntled, punchvoke, the ability to cause morons to to attack the big guy who just smacked the hell out of their friend. Lets poach from the Tanker forums, area damage proc!
Tanker Tuesday (Melee Damage)[/list]

Sound like a decent line of thought?