Sgt_Liberty

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As to Location AoEs requiring less skill; I think you and I must be using a completely different definition of skill. Even with appropriate binds, which not everyone uses, Location AoEs require more skill because its much easier to throw an arrow to the wrong spot. If you think Location AoEs require less skill, you must be thinking the level of skill required to pick and click on a spot both from a judgement perspective and a mechanical skill perspective is essentially zero, and the only issue with Location AoEs is that they allow you to pick potentially better spots than targetted AoEs. That completely dismisses the issue of skill: Location AoEs can be more flexible, but to say they require no skill to use suggests the base skill level you are judging from is extremely high.

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That's probably it then. To me, Trick Arrow seems far more straightforward than any other Defender primary it acts (unsurprisingly...) pretty much exactly like a Controller, which I find to be fairly simple, if generally unrewarding (to me) given the general lack of control (and I play a 42 Earth Controller too ) post nerf. To me, at least, basic concepts such as Line of Sight, the importance of what debuffs when, etc, is something you only need to figure out once, and should easily be covered within the first 20 levels of play.

My standards might just be too high, but I really don't see anything complicated about it, it's the kind of thing I learned playing inumerable other games or trying to beat the tar out of my brothers as a kid.

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Have you tried Stun Grenading the Stormer, or using the EMP glove? I hate to actually interject logic to your nerffest, but last I checked, no solo stormer can get mez protection, and the only self-heal they can get is Life Drain or Aid Self.

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Yes. They don't seem to work for me. I can't range attack, control, or heal others either. I'm not a blaster, controller or defender.

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You're just exagerating Kid. All you need is some speed from a Travel Power and a couple passes with Build Up. Bare minimum, and it will work.

And as an MA Scrapper, you DO have CC, you have Cobra Strike and Eagles' Claw 60% of the time. It's easy enough to punch through with that.

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Cobra Strike is the power MA Regen's don't take. I've tried the run and hit and the perma blow back hasn't allowed it.

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Well it works dude, dunno what to tell you. If you can't be bothered to take what's probably the best PvP power available to Scrappers then I can't help you .

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Have you tried Stun Grenading the Stormer, or using the EMP glove? I hate to actually interject logic to your nerffest, but last I checked, no solo stormer can get mez protection, and the only self-heal they can get is Life Drain or Aid Self.

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Yes. They don't seem to work for me. I can't range attack, control, or heal others either. I'm not a blaster, controller or defender.

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I think you need to realize that PvP isnt ever going to be balanced for one on one battles. You have two choices as I see it. Accept the fact that you need team mates to deal with certain obstacles, or avoid PvP. Coming into a forum of an AT you dont seem to have any experience playing and [censored] and moaning about one power isnt going to do you anygood, unless your goal is to have people think of you as a whiner without the ability to adapt to something that actually provides a challenge to melee in PvP.

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You will also need to tailor your build specifically to PvP. That means taking powers like CAK, Cobra Strike, Slotting Build Up with either Membranes or 3 ToHitBuff SOs, slotting unsupressable movement powers, etc etc.

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Have you tried Stun Grenading the Stormer, or using the EMP glove? I hate to actually interject logic to your nerffest, but last I checked, no solo stormer can get mez protection, and the only self-heal they can get is Life Drain or Aid Self.

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Yes. They don't seem to work for me. I can't range attack, control, or heal others either. I'm not a blaster, controller or defender.

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You're just exagerating Kid. All you need is some speed from a Travel Power and a couple passes with Build Up. Bare minimum, and it will work.

And as an MA Scrapper, you DO have CC, you have Cobra Strike and Eagles' Claw 60% of the time. It's easy enough to punch through with that.

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My point exactly. It's all you can use against melee scrappers. So what are they supposed to use against you if they can't get close to you? Rocks? I used them all long ago! IH was Regen's defense. I get ganked constantly in PvP. Int gets dropped and I drop like a fly. From melee and from ranged attacked I can be killed. Things need to be equally fair for all in PvP. Everyone should be able to kill each other equally as much. At least that's what's balance is supposed to be like. This would include taking away the most effective bread and butter powers everyone has from being perma. Took away IH and MoG. They kept Regen's alive. Now what we have to do is spend more time micro managing our toggle and multiple clicks to stay alive. I really think Hurricane shoule be a click, bubbles, etc. Being constantly pushed away by Hurricanes I guess is as much fun as you having perma MoG get through your defenses. If I can't touch you, then it's not fair. Just like I guess it wasn't fair when I could touch you says the Stormies who complained about MoG. Clickies for all in PvP only!

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Some momentum from a travel power and a few melee attacks with Build Up is all that's required to defeat someone using Hurricane. Also, in Sirens Call you can buy Stun Grenades and lob those from out of Hurricane's range. If you still have the Confiscated Beanbag temp power, that's similarly useful. Defender and Controller HP are easy to overcome.

The only problem with Hurricane's Repel is that, as I said, it doesn't suppress when you're subjected to it continuously like KB or Holds. You can avoid being debuffed by Hurricane far more easily than any other toggle debuff because the anchor has to come to you, instead of you becoming the anchor. It's plenty easy to kite a Storm Summoner and use ranged damage and Slows to overcome them.

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TA, IMO, requires a higher level of understanding to maximize and to make it perform at comparable levels. Knowing when to use debuffs, guaging their need and appropriateness is a higher level skill that requires fundamental knowledge.

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It is not at all complicated to play Trick Arrow. You point, things around your target are debuffed (barring misses). Voila. Idiot proof. Knowing that using a debuff at the end of a fight so it won't be recharged for the next is not some kind of advanced theoretical science, it's an artificial limit caused by not adjusting recharge times after reducing the amount of enhancement can effect the powers.

Trick Arrow doesn't take any more "skill" to play than most Buff/Debuff sets, it just penalizes you more for no purpose.

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Actually, I would have to disagree: TA takes a significantly higher level of skill both to integrate well into teams, and to get maximum effectiveness out of the set. I would be happy with that if TA rewarded that skill with higher effectiveness (relative to other sets) but instead it mandates that skill, penalizing those who don't have it (for that matter, it penalizes the TA defender when on a team that doesn't play well with TA: there is *no team* that I can't fit a rad or dark into).

This is not counting literal skill issues, like never queueing debuffs (long activation time + moving critters = debuff going off way over there), or things most people learn by rote that learn them at all (disruption arrow goes last, not first).

One way to reward skill with effectiveness would be to return debuffs to Location debuffs, possibly with game mechanical modifcations to make it easier to fire a Location AoE at a specific target. That way people can use the "training wheel" version of the debuffs as targetted debuffs, while advanced players can leverage them as Location Debuffs when they want to (getting a tactical but not overpowering advantage due to skill).

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I really just don't see it. It's the easiest set to apply debuffs with, all the debuffs are like blasts, pick a target and bam, debuffed. Picking a target that doesn't wander around requires someone to not be braindead. A Team can mostly just ignore the way a TA Defender plays and just pretend he's a Fire or Assault Rifle Blaster with less damage for all the difference they'll see. It'd take even less of what little skill is required (except probably in PvP) if the debuffs were all ground targetted.

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TA, IMO, requires a higher level of understanding to maximize and to make it perform at comparable levels. Knowing when to use debuffs, guaging their need and appropriateness is a higher level skill that requires fundamental knowledge.

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It is not at all complicated to play Trick Arrow. You point, things around your target are debuffed (barring misses). Voila. Idiot proof. Knowing that using a debuff at the end of a fight so it won't be recharged for the next is not some kind of advanced theoretical science, it's an artificial limit caused by not adjusting recharge times after reducing the amount of enhancement can effect the powers.

Trick Arrow doesn't take any more "skill" to play than most Buff/Debuff sets, it just penalizes you more for no purpose.

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Have you missed the giant expanding fireball when it explodes?

[/ QUOTE ] I skipped this power. I generally hate AoE knockback. Especially AoE knockback with radial vectors. I've teamed with all of one E-Arrow using toon. I do recall fire graphics...I also recall wanting to choke the guy for using that attack.

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It's all about placement. Best way to use it is not a target in the center of the group's circle, but one in the center and along the front edge. I find it to be a great attack, aside from seeminly lacking damage.

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Grenades are lethal because of the explosion (very hot expanding gasses - fire) and the shrapnel of the grenade casing

[/ QUOTE ] Standard grenades in the military do their damage from concussion and shrapnel...most of the damage is from shrapnel. The fire damage is incidental if there is any. There are incindiary grenades which are intended light things on fire. Whether Exploding Arrow is one or the other is arbitrary...but the idea that it would be all smash/lethal is totally plausible even if it is not convenient.

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My point was primarily that Shrapnel (ie Lethal) should remain the primary component. If it's incendiary then likely as not there shouldn't be any lethal or smashing damage worth mentioning. Fragmentation grenades though, are all about Lethal damage.

I doubt hurricane will be nerfed. It's pretty much completely ineffectual against ranged opponents, and melee opponents can push right through it given enough momentum.

The only thing that might happen is suppression on Repel effects in PvP so folks can't lock someone in a corner.

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Hypocrite that I am, I think having exploding arrow ditch it's lethal component for a fire one is a f'n brilliant idea though.

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Really, it should be half Lethal, half Fire - similar to Trip Mine. Grenades are lethal because of the explosion (very hot expanding gasses - fire) and the shrapnel of the grenade casing, and possibly whatever is inside (shards of metal - lethal).

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RI and EF provide four debuffs, not just three.

[/ QUOTE ] Your inability to understand what is being said here forces me to write you off.

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Yes because obviously the way in which you post could never be misleading or cause a misunderstanding, and something like that has NEVER happened before.

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a Stormie who thinks Hurricane has to be used ALL the time...

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You keep saying that like it's not true.

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So, yeah, I'd love to agree with you here. But it's rather exhausting to post genuine concerns, experiences, and suggestions while the people at the other end put their hands over their ears and go "lalala I'm not listening."

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I think it's more likely they look at it and are terrified because of how much work it'll be

I can see it now...

Fred the Programmer: "Couldn't I just make Electric Melee instead?"
Tom the Supervisor: "No, Jim is doing that, now get back to work, and I don't care if it takes 6 months!"
Fred: "Awww hell."
Jim: "haha!"

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Don't forget Oil Slick Arrow, which gives Trick Arrow the best damage in a Primary of any defender.

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I believe Storm still holds this title. Oil Slick isn't up nearly enough to compete with Lightning Storm, and doesn't always ignite (even if you manage to not miss the Oil Slick target).

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*Ahem*

Fallout is still the most powerful attack.

Although Lightning Storm can outdamge it if it all of it's strikes hit the same target...

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Let's not forget about Tornado. Put some mobs in a box and it'll go to town.

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So, I increased the sleep chance to a 'better' value. It's still not 100% of the time, but you should get between 50% and 66% of minions when it lands.

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Impressive chance, but Sleep is still a terrible mitigator against enemies you're fighting.

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Trick Arrow has other tricks aside from Debuffing too.

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Not in comparision to other defender sets. A immoblize, a single target hold, and a AoE hold? Blah!

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Subdue/Electric Mastery - Electric Fence;
Tesla Cage/Petrifying Gaze/Psychic Mastery - Dominate;
Radiation Emission/Psychic Mastery - Telekinesis.

Not exactly unique tricks either

Oh, and they work better for a Controller too! :/

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The devs don't seem to have a problem with people achieving the godlike powers such as the Regens and Invluns once wielded so long as they need teammates to acheive it.

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You can see the potential when you play all Defender or all Corrupter groups.

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Very true.

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Agree this is all true. It's very weird though. They only want to stop soloing it seems, because you can create indestructable groups in PvE. Other games have their solo balance down pretty well and just work on making sure groups can't take on anything with no effort.

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Well to be fair, in comic books there's not much a group of superheroes can't do

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Okaaaaaaaay, so how bout them trick arrow defenders?

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...Are there any left?

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Well I haven't DELETED mine yet. So sort of I guess.

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Just wait until these guys get around to looking and debating Trick Arrow.

That will be a good debate. Anyone know what the damage is like in comparison between the Oil Slick of a defender and a the Oil Slick of a controller?

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I think it's more likely we'll have to hire a band to play it's Dirge.

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Focused Fighting (FF) (Toggle):Manditory power (you automagically get this power at level one). This Toggle provides Def against any melee attack. An example of Melee attacks are Punches, Kicks, Swords and the like. Some attacks can hit more than one target but are still concidered Melee attacks. The majority of all attacks in the game are Melee, so this power is very valuable to you.

The base Def of this power is 12.5% It will accept End Reducers and Def Enhancements only. This power also grants a bonus to Perception, meaning you will spot opponents who are either in Stealth mode or Invisible sooner than other players.

Recommended slotting: 1 End, 3 Def. Personally I recommend you have this at least 4 slotted by level 22 (when you get SOs).

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Just wanted to point out this is incorrect. Focused Fighting provides +Resistance vs Confuse effects. Focused Senses provides +Perception.

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a different point: UY is not the only power with a negative component/debuff. oh, wait... thats the same point.

uh, HEY!! Look at Granite while you're at it... and rooted!!

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The thing is, Granite trades damage for survivability, it's a fair trade. Unyeilding doesn't do that.

Rooted is just inconvenient, not a liability to the user.

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Maybe I'm missing something here... but isn't 5% pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things?

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yes, it is . . . but the pickings are currently slim for the DOOOOOOOOOM Patrol.

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Actually, it's not. It's 5% more damage taken over time. It completely obviates the non-S/L resistances in Unyielding, and eclipes the S/L resistances. It's giving a serious penalty to survivability in the power that's our Mez protection, when no other mez protection power has it.

The power has been out of line for quite a while, but we've had more important things to complain about. Which are now being addressed. So now's the time to bring it to their attention. Invuln needed a good nerfing back in the day, but that day is gone and fragments of the nerf remain.

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Gorrila is correct on the math and does make a good point.

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No, he's not. He's either delusional, trolling, or lacks a basic understanding of math, while projecting these traits onto the rest of us who are not.

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A Tankers job is do soak up damage so they get a bonus to their resistances. Scrappers and Brutes make up for this by dealing more damage.

How can you complain that Brutes have to wait 8 more levels to get an inferior version of Unyielding when they're getting powers like Knockout Blow at level 8 compared to a Tanker at level 20?

Powers are balanced by the grand scheme of the archetype, not via individual powers so it's not fair to compare power for power versus the various archetypes. Brutes are more than fine as they are.

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Sorry, but that's not what the discussion is about. A Brute and a Scrapper have -5% defense, meaning they'll take 5% more damage overall. They only have (after slotting no less) close to 10% +res to compensate. This is (effectively) a pointless debuff, when you could remove both the +Res AND the -Defense.

What exacerbates this is that Tankers get closer to 12.5% +Res and have the same -5% defense.

Having both provide -5% defense means that Brutes and Scrappers actually have LESS than 0.75 * Tanker values, because Tankers have Unyielding such that they can offset the penalty, but Brutes and Scrappers will ALWAYS take additional damage from just USING Unyielding. It's the only status protection power that actually puts you in more danger by turning it on.

Integration provides 150% regeneration boost, no penalties.
Practiced Brawler doesn't give you any penalties or bonuses.
Obsidian Shield provides +Res vs Psionic, no penalties.
Fire/Plasma Shield provide +Res, no penalties.
Energy Armor's shield doesn't give you any bonuses (iirc) or penalties.
Ice Armor provides +1% Defense and no penalties.
Stone Armor provides +100% Regeneration and a movement penalty.

NONE of the other powers (aside from Stone) are even inconvenient, much less cause you to take more damage running them than not. If Temporary Invulnerability had Status protection, NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD EVER TAKE UNYIELDING WITH THE DEFENSE DEBUFF.

It's just silly, and you've dodged the point of the discussion, deliberately or accidentally, I don't know. It's not that Unyielding is inferior, because it SHOULD be by the listed 0.75 modifier, it's that it's MORE INFERIOR than it ought to be. Against anything that isn't status effect heavy, Unyielding is a liability. A trait it doesn't share with any of the other powers.

We'd probably happily give up the resistances in the power for the removal of the debuff, because the debuff is not applied fairly across sets. This hurts Scrappers more than Brutes, if only because Brutes have much higher caps than scrappers to offset this in a team.