Seraphael

Where as I sympathize with this attitude, I don't think an AT which can outdamage Blasters, outlive Tankers and outsupport Defenders is 'balanced'.

Exactly. However, having played a Mind Controller I would like to add that the term 'contained' should be expanded to include ANY type of mez including fear and confuse. This would allow Mind (and Illusion) Controllers to leverage AoE Containment at least a little better.

Interesting. Is there talk about changes to FS that warrants believing it will be changed anytime soon? If this is about to happen, I do hope the entire set will get a look to make it a bitt less "weak defenses for insane offensive rewards". That way I might actually consider playing a Kinetics Defender over a Kinetics Controller.

Not entirely true. There will always be need of support minded ATs and more people would be willing to play Defenders if Controllers wasn't the blatantly obvious better choice. Of course, Going Rogue will bring Corruptors to the mix which could make the popularity of Defenders sink even further despite nerf to Containment. That said, the best approach is dualistic in nature; nerfs and boosts where warranted.

I'm going to have to marry your proposal with Rigel Kent's. How about making every inspiration for Defenders also automatically act as a similar strength break free? It wouldn't help the endurance problems though and alone it would be too little to alleviate the Controller-Defender disparity.

The idea is thematically appropriate and not without merit. Ultimatly it fails though as it doesn't help Defenders solo while also being WAY too exploitable. Defenders would end up as inspiration dispensers as all teammates would hand them out so that any team with a Defender could be made into Super Reflex Scrappers.

Heh! That is some pretty far fetched and potentially suicidal exploit situations for very meager (whoop-e-doo! endurance discount) reward. It had me chuckling though (I'm easily amused ). It's MUCH easier to exploit Vigilance as is. Not to mention powers like Vengeance for a freakin' far greater reward.

You're being intentionally obtuse.

First off, Controllers were not designed to outclass Defenders in every department. They were given a massively overpowered inherent pravtically doubling their damage output, while Defenders were given an insignificant P.O.S.

As for Kinetics, it kind of worked to a certain point for Defenders. For them it is all about sacrificing safety and survival for a big offensive reward. For Controllers though, Kinetics is a perfect complement as their primaries already affords them with superb survivability and thus, they only reap the benefit and not the downside. Ultimately though, any one single power which can multiply an entire teams damage output many times over permanently is so broken it's ridiculous.

Even so, Kinetics has largely escaped nerfs (when I played a Kinetics Defender in US beta is was actually much worse than it is at present), I suspect mostly because Kinetics Defenders still struggles and the animosity nerfs tend to create among certain parts of the community. Not to blow my own horn too much (but who doesn't like their own ideas), but my above suggestion of boosts and nerfs to the set would work out fine for overall game balance.

Ememies not attacking indeed trumps all. Being able to control every spawn, makes the game easy (not to mention boring). With Fulcrum Shift it becomes child's play. Controllers got them both in additional to good damage (astronomical with FS) with epic powers.

Defenders > Controllers in the early to mid levels on teams only. Controllers are vastly better solo performers. So at least the disparity isn't so large in this level range.

Woha! First you claim it's all about one power for me and now you claim I want the entire game to be nerfed? Let's get real here!

I do understand the instinctual opposition to nerfs. I really do. However it IS warranted and everyone knows it. Defender buffs and debuffs are already strong as is in this game and that precludes buffing that side of things. Giving Defenders (much) more damage (and Defenders would need a significant boost to level the play ground with Controllers) and we risk stepping on Blaster toes as endgame Defenders already are quite decent with the right epic powers.

Not that it matters giving Controllers/Corruptors appropriate numbers (as opposed of today benefiting largely from Defender numbers), even with correctly lowered numbers they would still be able to reach damage caps. The only way to correct the imbalance as I see it, is through that mixed bag of boosts and nerfs as I already mentioned.

I would love to hear reasoning why FS is a balanced power and not in need of nerf. All this; "boost GOOOD! nerf BAAAAD!" doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

I'm glad I could amuse you.

Anyone contending that FS isn't grossly overpowered, especially on Controllers, either doesn't know the game or likes his overpoweredness (is that a word?) too much to care about game balance. As long he reaps the benefit of the imbalance of course. Seems I stepped on some farmer toes here.

I was about to edit my initial post and will after this reply.

To avoid exploitation, the buff would cease seconds after a teammate is defeated. The reason being, the teammate is already down and he doesn't need protecting anymore.

What people can make themselves to believe or to say in order to win an argument. Are you honestly claiming that a FF/Elec defender is the fastest soloist you've ever played?

I was with you until the above paragraphs. Especially on the slap thing.

Defenders lag behind all other ATs in damage output and a boost to the AT would have to be humongous for the above scenario to happen. With Defiance, Blasters has about twice the damage of Defenders. Also, a new version of Vigilance should not be tied solely to the team. Defenders should be able to benefit from it solo as well.

Problem now is that Controllers solo much safer and faster while also bringing more support to a team. When Going Rogue hits, Defenders will also directly compete with Corruptors and Masterminds. I can't see another solution to the imbalance than a mixed bag of nerfs and improvements to ATs and power sets:

1. Lower max damage capacity for all ATs.

2. Reduce bonus damage from Containment to around 80% (from 100%).

3. Nerf Fulcrum Shift to around 50% base dmg +10% per foe hit (from 50% +25%). Controller/Corruptor version should be around 40% base dmg +8% per foe hit.

4. Make Siphon Speed into an AoE slow with the same effect on caster as before.

5. Make Increase Density into a PbAoE toggle power with (Defender numbers) +25% S/L resistance, make it grant high levels of resistance (not protection) to status effects, and have a weak slow foe compartment.

6. Fix Defender inherent. For instance turn it into a reverse Kheldian inherent where the Defender uses his focus to protect his teammates. Each member is granted a minor bonus, different for each AT and designed to cover the weakness of an AT. While solo, the bonus is doubled as the focus is purely on self. For Defenders, this bonus could be +recovery and status resistance. Blasters/Scrappers: defense/resistance. Tanker/Controller: accuracy/damage.

The changes to Kinetics would benefit most Defenders, while being quite detrimental to Controller farmer ability. The Vigilance change would help Defender soloist abilities especially at lower levels where it is much needed. It would also make it so that Defenders aren't outclassed quite as much on teams by Controllers.

Except that of course as so much else, it's not on really par with the other AoE holds as is.

Earth: Larger radius, longer duration, faster cast
Fire: Larger radius, faster cast
Ice: Larger radius
Mind: Similar
Plant: Slower cast

In my experience from EU servers, people will generally fill a team with anything that basically fill a certain role in order to get a team going. If these roles are already filled, then anything goes. Would I pick a Controller over a Defender if they both asked at the same time for a single free spot on a team? Most assuredly. Would I pick a Corruptor over a Defender under the same premise? Definitely.

Play fair! Those "Defender variants" are most likely IO'ed out to the teeth. Anyway, I consider my Blasters VASTLY superior soloists. But guess what? None of my Blasters are really capable of taking out AVs. Big game hunting is an insignificant proportion of the game and should never be turned into a meter on how good an AT solos. Blasters solo a hell of a lot faster and with a little mezzing power and a good inherent, a lot safer too.

Your FF/Sonic more than likely benefit from multiple IO sets and is heavily invested in your epic pool. Despite that, being able to solo fairly with the by far best damage dealing and solo (and team!) friendly secondary available for Defenders at top level is a given. Any AT, even Defenders, solo fairly well once IO'ed out with the right epic powers at level 50.

This shows you're completely missing the point; Defender woes is solo capability while leveling up (lackadaisical damage, endurance problems, mez vulnerability). At top level, Defenders as an AT is totally outclassed by Controllers.

This one made me laugh. So it's your opinion then that balance isn't really important because some people doesn't know any better?

For me AE seemed to have killed off the game to a large part. Instead of powerleveling from level 40 and above being common place, we now see a huge proportion of the player base doing virtually the same farm friendly maps over and over again from level 1-50. The game should be renamed City of Farmers.

True. Then again, Kinetic Controller Fulcrum Shift is just as capable of bringing you to the damage cap as the Defender version is. Unlike a Kinetic Defender though, a Kinetic Controller will have superb survivability. While also having a lot better damage to boot.

The original poster has absolutly all rights to be worried for the future of this game.

If you think that having a single Defender (or worse, Controller) with a single power being easily able to permanently increase an entire teams damage output manyfold is okey, then you know nothing of balance. A kinetic Defender/Corruptor can already personally outdamage a Blaster against large spawns with the use of Fulcrum Shift. On top of that, the entire team gets the same damage boost. Having such imbalanced powers at out disposal more than likely works against Defenders when we ask the AT as a whole to be strengthened.

Debuffs are powerful too, but generally the game is sadly so easy that in the end game they are not even in the same ballpark (as FS) strengthwise.

EDIT: My proposal then would have Fulcrum Shift retain about the same base damage boost (perhaps slightly lowered around +40%) from the initial target, but each additional target would be similar to Soul Drain at around +8% rather than its present +25%. Consequently, the solo ability would not diminish, but the farming capacity would be lowered.


Controllers achieve more that mez protection with their controls. In pracsis they also achieve defense/resistance from the controls. Not to mention getting outright mez protection and armour in their epic pools. If anyone should have mez protection in the epics, it should've been Defenders. That said, I feel mez protection in the magnitude given is outright detrimental to the game. Even for melee ATs. Being constantly mezzed is extremely annoying, but being made virtually immune is incredibly boring. Mez resistance however, is something I can get behind.

I didn't suggest giving Kinetics mez protection though. I merely suggested compensating the set for nerfing Fulcrum Shift. No matter how warranted that nerf really is.

Siphon Speed would then become an AoE slow, but the speed/recharge boost would still only be given the caster (a very weak scaling to speed/recharge could be given per foe hit). This would benefit kinetic Defenders in solo play (where they need help, in teams even a nerfed FS will always be awesome), but be quite detrimental to kinetic Controllers who already get more defenses (active or passive) than they need (an AoE slow would be nearly useless to them as they already have the spawn locked down). Which again would alleviate some of the Defender/Controller disparity, while finally adressing the single most overpowered power in the game.

I agree to a point. Giving Kinetics to Controllers was a huge mistake, but it can easily be fixed. If there is a will, there is a way.

As mentioned above, Fulcrum Shift is brokenly overpowered. The extreme level of offense in the set was probably designed to offset the weak defense. However, a Controller has powers that provide excellent defense. Consequently, they won't feel the achilles heel of the set and only reap the VAST benefits.

Kinetics must be adressed as a whole. The power of Fulcrum Shift should be significantly lowered. Simultaneously, other powers should be boosted. Siphon Speed could be changed from single target to AoE (slow/-recharge) while keeping its self effect as is. The duration of ally only buffs should be increased.

As a result, Kinetic Defenders would lose in offensive capability. As they should. But get some defense to compensate. Kinetic Controllers would not benefit as much as Defenders from the above Siphon Speed change.

The damage cap of all ATs should be lowered. Controllers (and Brutes I guess), mostly so.

With these changes, and buff to Defender inherent, we would have a much more level playingfield.

All that AND several damage procs? Best I did with a little effort was (no purples):

48% Accuracy
95% Recharge
95% Damage
23% Imobilization
1 damage proc

What specific slotting do you use?

Oh, I see many/most Controllers outdamaging blasters. Among Blasters only Fire and Archery can even hope to compete with the likes of Plant and Fire Controllers. To rub it in, Controllers have vastly better survivability and team support rivaling Defenders.

My Defender would kill and die to get an inherent as good as Scourge! Don't even compare these two. Containment is vastly overpowered, I'm shocked developers ever could think it would be balanced.

True. I firmly believe that all power sets, especially kinetics, should be balanced and tied in with the general strengthening of the Defender AT. Any single power which can increase the damage output of a whole team many times over is so overpowered and broken it's just plain ridiculous (I'm looking at you Fulcrum Shift). The damage boost it yields should be more than halved. As a compensation Siphon Speed could gain AoE slow to afford the set with a measure of defense. Speed Boost, Increase Density and Inertial Reduction should get their respective durations doubled to make the set less of a chore to play in teams.

Anyway, nothing of this has stopped Controllers from becoming tankmages. Passive personal defenses can easily be softcapped, but who needs defenses anyway when the enemies are not fighting back most of the time? Status Protection can be had, the damage output with containment is plain ludicrous (who could ever think that it would be balanced?) even without taking their secondaries into consideration. VEATs are no slouches either with great damage, superb defense and team support/utility to boot. My faceplant perfected blaster died a silent death seeing all the goodies the villains were given.

Ultimately though, the change needed for balance is so massive and the developer ability and willingness to do so, so lacking that I'll most likely jump ship once a certain other superhero MMO is released.