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Posts
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Quote:Hm. Perhaps I should go back and re-edit. No, I was not thinking the resistance would be enhanceable.Interesting. I'd be a bit wary about adding that much -Defense debuff resistance; maybe just in Dispersion Bubble? You also didn't mention whether or not the resistance is enhanceable - by default it would be, so that global 50% is slottable up to 80%, which is significant.
Otherwise, these are pretty similar to our ideas. I like that.
It came up in the thread, but I would argue against centering defense debuffs protection in dispersion. The DDR suggestion is twofold- it makes the protection more reliable, and it gives an added value when stacked on other characters already sporting high defense.
I argued for it being in the single buffs because in such case it's available even outside the bubble huddle, making it more reliable, and the self-effecting defense gets only a fraction of the DDR protection, in line with forcefield's lower standard personal defense/higher ally protection approach. -
Quote:The linked video is similar to my own experience on the TF- I did this with a small team (5) and the primal Duray exhibited some of the same jumpy teleport behavior. To the point that we gave up on him and killed the praetorian versions and adds first, but still had another 15 minutes or so just chasing him around. It definitely made for a frustrating encounter.Where did you get the 2 minute recharge time from anyway?
edit - didn't demorecord, but did FRAPs the fight, at least a min or so of it. Posting it to YouTube now, but it's raw footage so it's taking a while. Should be up later tonight.
edit2 - Video here. Still uploading but the link will work when it's done. Currently says 23 mins left. -
Some of my suggestions for Forcefield/Sonic:
Link to suggestion
Quite similar to some of the suggestion for debuff protections, though I did suggest further debuffs be added. -
Look at all the 'can only buff others' sets, and you'll notice the 'only other players' powers are almost always twice as powerful as the 'me too' powers. Why? It's balance by averaging. The allies get to be twice as strong from the buffs because you never will be. You, the source of the buffs, become the Achilles heal of the team. This is pretty balanced. You go down, the source is cut off, the team stops being so tough. (eventually, depending on buff duration)
Wait, you say that others can make themselves just as strong? Well, yes. But almost exclusively themselves. You play a melee character and you make the opposite trade- You are the stronger team member, but you can't make other players much better.
This is ignoring another issue- just about every 'target other' power is a click, not a toggle. Melee characters get toggles to buff themselves- if something drains them, overcomes their mez protection, or so on, their protection suppresses or shuts down. if buffers could target themselves, in many cases they'd keep their buffs even without endurance or while mezzed.
Lastly, many sets that are 'buff the team only' carry incredibly powerful debuffs. It doesn't matter so much if you're squishy if the enemy can't hit worth spit and melt quickly even under medium firepower due to debuffs. This is something melee characters, as "overpowered" as they are, almost never get, and don't get in the same range as buff/debuff sets. If you let these sets *coughCOLDcough* buff themselves, they not only make the team and themselves far tougher, they turn enemies to wimpy mush. They become the toughest archetypes out there with not any counterpoint to balance them. -
Mind/Psi/Soul dominator, with the stealth+stealth io for invisibility. The healing is the real trick, but being able to manipulate from invisibility and lock down most anything is a huge boon for most content.
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As I said, most obviously the -dam, -tohit.
The -special could for flavor, but that's something I could let go, given the current strength. (-special beeing -speed, -heal, -mez, -def values on powers the enemy has that do those things.) -
Just realized this from another thread, and verified through the power analyzer- weaken does not stack. It reeeeeaaallly should.
In envenom's case, there's a precedent for non-stacking -res debuffs, hence why I mentioned the unresistable/unstackable evenom. But weaken? Power siphon's -damage stacks like crazy. I have no idea why weaken's -damage doesn't. stacking up its -tohit is likewise no issue, as it's a resisted value, and is the second half of this single target mitigative debuff tool. -Speed? That stacks like crazy elsewhere.
If they are worried about the -special (lowing controls/buffs/heals) then that could stay unstackable. But the rest? I'm scratching my head at it. -
*shrugs* or just disagree. I find the percussion of the songs you linked to overdone, something I find problematic with music of that time in general. And the mad world link has the echoey singing I'd mentioned.
I simply thought both links had elements of what I took issue with, so I thought the inclusion of them might be ironic. Obviously I misread.
I understand the criticisms I brought up are 'problematic' only in my own view, please do not take this personally. -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seldom
**insert echoey singing and overly loud drums drowning out melody here**Quote:What music were you listening to? That doesn't describe '80s music at all.
Here's a couple of my favorites for a better idea of what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P09gm_I5RI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOdfzmzwtVA -
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*shudders*
If the next booster features the tragic fashion/hair of the 1980's....Let's just say it won't be just the first booster add on I skip, I will see if I can reconfigure the game so that the substitute items are displayed in their place, sparing me having to look at them. -
Illusion/rad is quite good, but it's strength is against hard target, so it's not as good against crowds. Mind/Psi dominators are very well rounded, excelling at mass and single target control. They will do less single target damage, but go through crowds more easily and safely.
Choose yer poison.
Other considerations:
Crab spiders. On SO's, they are incredibly strong. Throw in some inventions, and they become even better. Pets, buffs, debuffs, AoE's galore.
Fire/Fire/fire dominator: Expensive as all get out to do it, but this can become embarrassingly high damage. It starts of with sort of weak control, but with enough recharge flashfire will always be there, and the embrace of fire being up frequently for blaze, rain of fire, and so on is crazy. -
Hehe.
Plant/earth dominator, with the smallest body size possible. You have the obvious forest and earth connection, then for giggles you have the tiny sprite shaking the earth, throwing boulders, and smacking things silly with stone hammers.
Perhaps more 'warrior'-ish, but could be fun. -
The original post has been edited to reflect thread discussion.
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Quote:I appreciate the feedback and counterpoints you've brought up. I obviously have a few differences of opinion, but I'm glad the back-and-forth can stay friendly.I already did in my first post of the thread, though..
Don't worry, I try not to take things personally.
I was referring to the comment about how the set was "flawed" and needed a "proper overhauling." You've stated that most of the stated debuff protections in the shields and psy resistance are not the way to go, but that debuff protections in clarity do make sense. In fact, you'd mentioned the debuffs protections might be best shifted to it instead. You'd mentioned a stackable sonic siphon and faster liquefy would be preferred. You believe there should not be any psy resistance.
I'm just trying to clarify the stance you have here-
-An overhaul of the powerset is more necessary than small changes
-Stackable sonic siphon
-Shields staying as-is for the most part
-No comment on sonic cage, repulsion
-Lower cost for disruption field
-clarity carrying debuff protections
-An altered liquefy, for -dam/res rather than -tohit/-def.
Do I have this correct?
I've probably run into the ground my stance on protecting from side effects as well as damage, and treating psy damage as most others are. The other things well, I made these suggestions because they seemed in my mind pretty simple, and for the most part had little to upset balance-wise. They are straight-up additions rather than alterations of present values.
When you get into altering powers up and down, it has more ramifications on present characters. Most of the changes I'd suggested follow present functions, or are unalterable, thus more straightforward to balance.
I agree with some of your positions, particularly about liquefy needing to be changed, (Though I'd do it differently) and altered disruption field cost. I just think these are a bit outside the purview of 'quick additions.' Their exclusions are not to communicate that they shouldn't be changed. Rather, I just think those debates would be longer, more crazy. Hence why I thought I'd simply share the faster, simple changes.
Hm. Actually, the unenhanceable 25% resistance to psy damage (20% for controllers/corrs) I can see. It means set vulnerable are less vulnerable, but still must be careful. The lack of enhanceability means sonics don't all of a sudden need to find new slots, or gain new slots to use +res sets in. -
Quote:I'm sorry if it came off like I was pulling a quote out of context. I read the quoted portion as a restatement of a position you had taken in general to the set, and was stating my reasons for challenging said position. My focus on psychic damage may be different, as I play a lot high-level on the redside. There you can't throw as stick high level without hitting a carnies, widows, fortunatas, psychic wardens, or rikti.Your point wasn't unclear, my problem was that you were replying to an argument about someone else's post. Your point doesn't really have much to do with ArcticFahx's reasoning or my opposing viewpoint to it...
As to the rest, I would hope you could address the suggestions as they stand or at least enumerate your position rather than dismissing them as being an hindrance to a hypothetical, broader revamp of unstated scope.
Please don't take that as a personal affront, I'm just trying to be specific here. -
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
....I don't entirely disagree, but I'm not sure how "psi weakness is too common" somehow justifies removing Sonic Resonance's only outstanding weakness....Quote:Originally Posted by Seldom
Because quite simply it represents for sonic resonance an area in which a protective buff set is incapable of providing protection. Look again at other sets- they do have a weakness to psy damage. But they have lots of mitigative debuffs or heals that can compromise the psy damage dealers.Quote:Originally Posted by IanTheM1
That doesn't logically follow from what I said...
Yes, I'm aware kill speed is mitigation. Hence why I kept my suggestions pretty minor. Sonic at its heart is still about making the team tougher and the enemies weaker, outlasting. Filling its crack neither overpowers the set, nor compromises its theme. If anything, it updates the set to a time where many more psychic foes appear than when it was built, and more reliably do what it's meant to do.
You want a set revamp? I know there are some deeper changes that could happen. Liquefy needs a better look, and sonic repulsion would, in my opinion, be far better as an ally click. But those are larger changes than some debuff resistances and unenhanceable side-effects added to a few powers.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'band-aid fixes.' Do you believe small improvements threaten to keep the sets from getting larger adjustments that they need? If so, I really don't get placing such an adversarial relationship between the two. If both are needed, they'll happen. -
Heh. I picked drain psyche up on one of my blasters, after having a loooong love for it on my Mind/Psy dom. Not only did I find it was only 3/4 as strong, I quickly figured out it's a lot more situational. Doms can lock things down, and use drain psyche to patch up what bits of damage leak through. Blasters? They kill things. Quickly. As such the "slowly regenerating health" is less of a strength when you can't slow down fights, rather usually escalate them.
Actually, I do like it for endurance way more than on my dominator.
It's still a wonderful AV debuff, though. -
Quote:Because quite simply it represents for sonic resonance an area in which a protective buff set is incapable of providing protection. Look again at other sets- they do have a weakness to psy damage. But they have lots of mitigative debuffs or heals that can compromise the psy damage dealers.....I don't entirely disagree, but I'm not sure how "psi weakness is too common" somehow justifies removing Sonic Resonance's only outstanding weakness....
Sonic does have mitigation, but limited:- Sonic cage: less mitigation and more damage procrastination
- Sonic repulsion: requires endurance consumption not sustainable, and an ally in harm's way
- Liquefy: has a base 1/10 uptime
Sonic relies a LOT on its shields, because it has such a small toolset for actively taking the bite off of attacks. Having a hole means sonic can suddenly run up against a mobs that will be doing 100% damage and it can't do much about it at present. This is not a good position for a set meant to be relied on for safety to be in. -
Quote:A weakness? Perhaps. But the suggestion has several reasons. Firstly, it gives forcefield an extra tool to use in situations where its other tools face redundancies. Due to the time limitation on KB and the hard set 5% hit that enemies gain, this gives something that can always be helpful to the team, and add to their performance even if there's a ton of defense, KB, or if the foe ignores KB. The BIGGER reason is that it gives forcebolt a lot more utility. There is absolutely no reason to use it in an AV fight right now, and due to the KB nature, some folks don't use it even when the enemy could be sent flying. This makes the power a very palatable power pick- but it still has its 'enemy will be sent flying' portion, so forcefielders can't just spam it everywhere without possible repercussions. It also is for theme. something that can send you flying with its impact would certainly bruise. Also, as -res can't be enhanced or changed, it doesn't bring any new slotting intricacies.While I see what you're going for, I don't see why this needs to be addressed. It seems to me like knockback resistant enemies are a legitimate weakness of the set.
Quote:T... I think maybe only Dispersion Bubble should have the DDR, though. A full 75% across the set seems like a bit much, and I think there should be something to it rather than just being yet another spammable buff effect.
Perhaps a smaller amount in each shield (5-10%), with a higher amount in Dispersion Bubble (35-45%). That could work too.
Quote:Not strictly for or against. I'd rather see Sonic Siphon generally improved first - lower the recharge some and make it stackable.
Quote:This I don't like. There may be a legitimate numbers argument in there somewhere, but I don't see why Sonic should get something that Force Field should be specializing in already.
Quote:Slow protection feels wrong for some reason, but I'm not sure why. But considering Force Field gets similar exotic protections, I think I'm okay with this. Just move one of the debuff resistances to Sonic Barrier.
Quote:This on the other hand is going a bit too far. Dispersion Bubble gets nothing like this, and the justification is weak.
Quote:Outright no on the Psi resistance. Psychic damage is supposed to be Sonic's main weakness. This would be a huge, uncalled for buff to the set.
To be more specific: forcefield shields, but also has an unending supply of continuous knockaround to stop foe attacks. Thermal can heal back damage that happens to shielded allies. Cold can reduce attack rate while reducing damage via shields. Sonic- sonic in can boost survival via faster kill rate, but damage still happens, reliably. The other mitigations are damage type neutral. With less mitigation of this sort, the typed resists take far more of the weight of providing extended survival. The last thing it needs in such case is a damage type that ignores even this. Adding psy resistance would make sonics better, yes. It would be especially handy when many sets lack resistance. But since sonic places so much emphasis on damage rests, having this inclussion just makes it the most reliable shielding resist set. This does not make the powerset the end all, be all of support sets; only better at the one thing it emphasizes so strongly already.
Also, it makes clarity a lot more palatable as a power choice, as it's ant-mez buff in a set with an anti-mez bubble which at present makes it less valuable. -
I'll again mention the number above would be on defender mods, and I think should be lower for any other AT's.
I know that forcebolt is primarily a KB power...but putting in bruising gives the power a use when facing a KB/repel resistant foe. Since forcefields has more knock* powers than anything else, this gives it a handy tool for where that fails, but not to the point it overpowers. The bruising is actually a copy/reduction of tanker bruising, which is 20%. With these numbers, controllers would end up with -12% res, and MM's -9% res. It also might be mentioned that no buff set that lacks a debuff has ever been proliferated to corruptors. This would give the set a debuff. Hmmm...
The DDR does verge a bit high, but again, defender numbers. You'd end up with 60% for controllers, and 45% for masterminds. This also assumes being in dispersion range, which is not always the case. If a melee character is in the front, and bubbler is in the back, the suggestion would leave the melee character at 50-30% DDR. If the number were reduced, I'd have the higher values go to the little bubbles, and lowest in the big one. (In theme with the rest of forcefields, where the bubbler is most vulnerable most of the time.)
For the sonic effects, again keep in mind these would be lower for controllers/corrs. That said, the high debuff resistance is particularly interesting in that it has absolutely no effect on gameplay until the character is hit, takes damage, and gets the corresponding debuff. the above numbers would mean that 70% of the debuff would effect the shielded player, best case. if the sonic user were hanging back, or the character moved forward, the debuff shifts to 80%. I actually left the number a bit low. (the resistance shifts to 24-16% resistance for controllers/corrs, depending if you are in the big bubble or not.)
That said, I did hope the values would go up with resistance enhancements. (I'm all but certain this is consistent with debuff resistance in resistance based armor sets, correct me if I'm wrong.) If such could work, the resistance can jump to 48%-32% for defenders, (Hugging the bubble vs. not) and 38.4%-25.6% for controllers/corrs.
Hm. Oh, I also meant to add that the shields that protect from cold/energy should also reduce slow/-recovery debuffs. Whoops! -
Hm. not sure if that's needed. Of course I haven't seen the new AoE speedboost/ice shield/forcefields/etc, so I have have no idea if the animations on those were changed. Since that's where the antidote thing is coming from, the comparison so far lacks a point of reference.
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Heh. This was somewhat intentional. The thinking being that forcefields and sonics are far more focused/limited in the strengths they provide. It would only follow that they'd be stronger in these areas. The above additions would make them stronger in the reliability sense, without changing the actual defense/resistance values.
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Antidote, yes. Alkaloid is a stretch, though, as no single target heals were made into an AoE.
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Quote:I'm sorry, that implication was never intentional. The suggestion is to simply give forcefielders a tool that makes their-and even others' defense more reliable because they have a forcefielder around.You said they would be very welcome to defense based characters. I don't think it's a stretch to think that implies they wouldn't be happy to have them without the DDR buffs.
That's it.