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Quote:And suppose fighting only cosmic entities at high levels doesn't fit with some of our concepts? Should we just stop levelling period, because at some arbitrary point the game becomes "Gods allowed only?"Would I have brought up the point of Archery and Martial Arts if it had slipped past my notice? As I said those concepts stand to err in favor of the players because it creates more enjoyable avenues of play. Of course, there's a double standard because we play the game for the experience of being a superhero, something which should entail facing off against super powered threats.
Malta may not be superpowered, but their anti-super conspiracy seems perfectly appropriate for high levels. Powerful psychics pounding away at your defenses and resolve to make you submit also seems perfectly appropriate.
I'm sorry, but I'd have to agree with Zwill. A fight with Galactus all the time would get boring. Sometimes Lex Luthor and his Kryptonite-powered weapons will suffice enough.
Quote:There's the difference between application and perception. Are we inherently weak? No. Does it seem that way? When a hero is laid low by a rock, yes. Could it be presented in a way which more clearly represents the Seers effects on the league? Certainly.
Quote:When someone walks into the TPN for the first time, how many are going to notice a new icon in the midst of a dozen and a half already existing on their buff bar?
Quote:Because it does not produce success 100% of the time does not mean it fails to produce higher rates of success. Uberguy's experience and my own are both simply points of data. If the method produces success 80% of the time, compared to 50% success in eliminating the Seers, that is a higher rate of success which is what my experience suggests. (The failure in question was simply that, a singular failure using this method.) I cannot speak for the experience of every player, however.
Quote:That's quite a stretch. A better accusation would be that I want to take the path of least resistance to the rewards. I can at least cop to that to a degree. In the grander scheme, being defeated individually or as a leaque, is generally unenjoyable. Why would I not veer away from those things? -
Quote:He serves unnamed gods of the Netherworld which could potentially include Mot.Well is he a servant of Mot or just having the same goals? I have a character with the same goals as Rularuu but he'd still oppose Rularuu because HE wants to be the one to devour everything. (Plus, he thinks he can do it better, so a matter of professional jealousy could be considered, it's like why some players want their villains to be the one who kills statesman and not some NPC)
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The Shard zones are big enough to let villains in, whether co-op or PvP (while PvP in a huge zone might be head exploding worthy, it would be rather interesting). Thing is, if it goes co-op, please have two chains of contacts like Cimerora. I'm tired of missions designed mostly for heroes that villains get to piggy back on (like what seems to be happening with Dark Astoria unfortunately—it'd be most frustrating in the fact that my namesake, as I wrote him, has the same goals as Mot).
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Quote:And you don't see the double standard there?I don't like it because the damage from stones and molotov cocktails are doing damage comparable to the IDF weaponry while under the same debuff. To me, a thrown projectile and a high tech weapon shouldn't be near comparable. Of course, we do have things like Archery and Martial Arts stacking up against Beam Rifles and Titan Weapons, but those err on the side of making the players feel powerful, in other words, making our characters enjoyable.
By a lot of the arguments I've seen here, my ninja girl, Lady Tsukira, shouldn't be allowed to hurt demons and robots with her ordinary steel swords just because she's otherwise a completely ordinary "normie." It's a ridiculous assertion that you should be able to be instantly invulnerable to something just because it doesn't match your concept of being an uber elder god from the center of the galaxy, forgetting entirely that this is a game based on mechanics to ensure balance and challenge for those whom are playing it.
Quote:From the producer's letter discussing Incarnate's:
Does the TPN make us feel powerful? Obviously, it does not for many people. Even after learning the mechanics of the fight, for a better rate of success, we avoid civilians. We are avoiding normal people with impromptu weapons because it has provided a higher rate of success than the following the developer's script and because it makes our characters feel inherently weak.
Furthermore, UberGuy posted about experiences counter to yours concerning ignoring the telepathists where the whole trial went to hell. And you even admitted to experiencing a few like that when responding to him, so clearly such claim that ignoring the telepathists produce "a higher rate of success" as universal is very FALSE.
Furthermore, you have to change buildings, and as you continue to ignore the telepathists, you still have to deal with the angry civilians and more of them than there should be.
Quote:Arguably, the most powerful effect in the TPN is the Seers' debuff, but there is no visual or auditory indicator for it. There is only a bit of text under your health and endurance bars. That seems to go very much against the grain of making these epic trials visually impressive. Kryptonite, which people like bringing up for a genre comparison, at least had an ominous green/red glow.
Quote:You have to deal with them far more frequently if you're trying to defeat the the Seers than in the 10-15 seconds it takes to run from building to building. If the people assigned to Seer duty are up to the task then the civilians really are little more than a nuisance. However, Seers, IIRC, convert a civilian every 15 seconds they're present. Even faltering for a few moments means converted civilians with no way to undo the process. If the individuals assigned to this duty begin to struggle with it the problem quickly escalates as they suffer from the debuffs and growing damage. If you're uncertain about league mates dps why not take the safer route? Why risk a humbling defeat when the Seers can simply be ignored for a better chance of success over all?
Also, unfortunately, yes we are limited to a certain number of high damage individuals. Unless you've custom built they league with friends and associates you may end up with a lots of debuffs and AoEs and very little single target damage. There's so much variance within ATs that simply recruiting a scrapper, for example, could give you a high single target DPSer like Street Justice or an AoE centric build like Fire/Shield. Again, a reason why leagues will tend toward the simpler, surer, and less embarrassing method of ignoring the Telepathists.
Quote:Not everyone is superman, not everyone has a retarded weakness. A guy with a shield pretty much gives the middle finger to kryptonite like Captain America.
See your logic and fails and it is stupid. Trymoarpls kkthxbye.
Go pound sand. -
Yeah... as others have pointed out, that isn't the opposite. Steroids shrink your junk.
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I don't limit myself to any one archetype. I play them all.
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That I could believe.
Quote:But yes, there are people who are unaware that the debuff exists because there isn't an unmistakable graphic (due to it being zone wide).
At least I would think it would show up there. Even the RWZ debt protection buff shows up there.
Quote:There are also people who don't understand how a telepathic debuff can debuff their powered armor, robotic parts, ancient enchantments or whatever it says in their bio.
lulz
Quote:There are people who don't understand why this capability is presented here without a handwave explaining why it hasn't been used before (I actually beleive it is explained that this is a newly developed technique/ploy related to Mother Mayhem getting control over Princess Penny, but I could be wrong).
Quote:There are also people who just don't like having their Incarnate defeated by unpowered normals, because what was the point of becoming Incarnate again?
That logic crumbles underneath scrutiny.
Quote:I personally understand it. I beleive I know what they were trying to present. I can totally get behind the concept of being telepathically induced to essentially surrender.
Quote:I just don't think it comes off well ingame, and this thread is evidence of that. -
Really? Because I recall a number of claiming in this thread that it didn't make sense. I wasn't aware dislike and confused were synonyms.
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Quote:And there's ways to avoid that.The point is that the visual of Superman being downed by a thrown rock is anti-epic, no matter how justified it is.
The Seers are Kryptonite. They're what's causing the problem both mechanically and narratively. When around Kryptonite, Superman can be hurt by anything. Even by a two-year old kicking him in the knee.
I really don't see why this is so hard to comprehend and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. -
Quote:And there's where your argument keeps falling apart. You wouldn't have to deal with rocks and molotov cocktails outside if you actually bothered to stop the Seers.On Virtue, it has almost become standard practice for everyone to stay indoors because it is far easier. No one wants to go outside to be beaned to death with rocks and Moltov cocktails and there is no need to do so.
And considering DPS, its not like you're limited to a certain number of high damage archetypes. -
Quote:It's your logic that's faulty.Easy there, killer. No need to get angry when someone points out your faulty logic.
"WAAAHHHH! I'M AN INCARNATE AND THESE CIVILIANS ARE HURTING ME WITH ROOOOCKS!"
"Well, why don't you take out the Seers to keep them from debuffing you and converting the civilians?"
"OHHHH BUT THAT TAKES WAY TOOOOO LOOOOONG!"
"You could assign a few league mates outside to take out the Seers while the rest mash IDF inside. There's only about 6 of them."
WAAAHHH! BUT ROOOCKS!! SO SILLY!" -
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And yet you're ******** about the rocks that the converted throw at you. It seems to me that the people upset about the rocks beaning their Seer debuffed ***** have no one to blame but themselves.
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That's what you get for eating glue.
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Hm... looking at the trial here on the wiki I just noticed that there's a badge for defeating the Telepathists and preventing them from converting any of the citizens against you. Hm.... I wonder what that means.[/sarcasm]
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Quote:As someone stated earlier, they probably don't con gray to keep someone from griefing the trial.Or, they could just con grey and be easily killed and make you have to pick them out of the target list or else fail for killing even one. People think they're tough because they were deliberately made so. There's no excuse for almost everything you run into in Praetoria being at least level 54.
Hero Boy: We're almost there, team!
Grief Boy: *Judgments a bunch of gray-conning civilians.* lulz.
Trial Failed! -
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Quote:What's more demoralizing? Death troops shooting bolts of light at you, or the civilians you're supposed to be setting free sneering angrily and resentfully toward you while throwing rocks at your head?There are numerous posts in this very thread talking about how that nifty little "Kryptonite radiation" field is still in effect and the civilian-thrown-rock is doing more damage than the huge robot's plasma rifle.
Please explain how we're supposed to "just get that" in a rationale that would seem reasonable to someone who understands the concept of "a plasma rifle is more dangerous than a rock".
Then while you're at it, explain why these aren't present in earlier encounters - like, for example, when you're tearing through their army. After all, as has been brought up before, if only a handful of their psychics are capable of bringing a entire league of incarnates to something roughly weaker than your average toddler (to be killed by a thrown rock - most toddlers are more durable than that) then what good does it do to have public sentiment on our side? -
Quote:Unfortunately America has a very... Victorian attitude towards sex. I have to say, I'm amazed that the miniskirt ever made it here, considering the American attitude over sex. Paradoxically, American culture doesn't seem to mind oodles and oodles of blood and gore splattering the walls. It's peculiar when violence is considered more acceptable than sex.Here's the thing, from where I'm sitting: We just recently got done with a thread about gender parity in costume design and the representation of women in the game, but "prudishness" isn't what I thought we were asking for in it. I was one of the people "outraged" at the... "Unfair" costume allocation, but like many others, it wasn't what women got and how they were represented that bothered me, but rather what they DIDN'T get and how they WEREN'T represented that did. What they got isn't bad nor immoral.
I actually have a particular problem with people crying "porn" on pics of real or fictional women posing sexy. When we were talking about the animal pack, I posted a pic of a literal cow girl, and got at least one poster to scream "POOORN!!!" at me because she was sitting with her arms up over her head. At some point, I feel that we're being far too sensitive. We have "Suggestive Themes" right there in our rating banderole. That IS consistent with T for Teen, and I see nothing morally questionable about it.
Moreover, this speaks to me of people associating sexuality with pornography in a way that I can't imagine is very healthy. A girl posing, a girl in a skimpy outfit or a girl with large breasts is not something to be ashamed of or something to hide your children from. It is not, most of all, immoral, at least not from where I'm standing. -
Actually I think I know what the real problem is, but I'd get in trouble here for saying it. Pacification isn't just there to add another circle to the buff/debuff bar, and as I pointed out buffs and debuffs are insanely powerful in this game, so the conclusion should be obvious.
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Quote:But in this case, there are floating ladies projecting a Kryptonite radiation field while Superman is getting pelted by rocks.THIS, IMHO, is the problem.
I personally get the thrown rock thing. The problem is that you should get it, and everyone should get it. The presentation of the story needs to make it crystal clear.
Even if the reasons behind the thrown rock thing are supposed to be mysterious and linked to future events, the fact that they should be mysterious or whatever needs to be clearly presented.
No matter what the justification, having Superman brought low by a thrown rock will always be jarring and not-epic compared to him fighting Darkseid or Thanos. But the justification should be so clearly presented that a young child who does not play should be able to tell what is going on without prompting.
Not exaggerating. -
Quote:#6 is probably chilling in the Gutter, or maybe even in the Fab. No one seems to be in the Fab yet.Yeah, that's my thought, co-op finale. Though villains haven't spoken up much about what's going on in Grandville. Peregrine Island has contacts up for both parts 5 and 6. Someone said there was a contact for 5 up in Grandville, no one seems to have spotted #6 yet.