Samuel_Tow

Congratulations

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You know... I think I found out what part of the problem is, and as expected, it's that I lacked imagination when I made this guy. Originally, I just tried to approximate a werewolf as close as possible, and those tend to be either very dark brown or, most often, just black. In fact, a Google image search for "werewolf" reveals mostly black and brown werewolfs, at least in the colour pics. Me making mine basically black (and even blacker, as a test) is a large part of why it feels so... Generic.

Just as an experiment, I tried making the guy all white - white fur and white skin. And to my surprise, that actually looked pretty dang cool. He still looks generic, though, because he's just a white werewolf, but he is, nevertheless, the kind of character I'd sit up and take notice of, going "Wait, what was that? I want to see this from up close."

Of course, this comes with its own problems, as white skin isn't actually white, it's orange and a pure white wolf just falls into one more monochrome design, of which I've made MANY recently. I tried adding more chains and medieval pieces to the guy, but I don't think it's working.

So, instead, I think I'll go in another direction for the time being, at least as a test, that being a ripoff of an entirely different character - Final Fantasy VII's Nanaki, known to players as Red XIII, or whatever they chose to name him (my neighbour named him after me when he played). That is to say, instead of a black werewolf, I'll instead look at something in a flamboyant colour - gold or a fiery orange, or possibly even jade green. Just something that stands out.

That's for the body, however. A naked werewolf is still boring even if it's traffic cone orange, so I'm not sure what else to add to change that. I keep thinking about adding technology of some sort, specifically so I can use the absurd Tech Sword. Not sure how to go about this, though, or even if I SHOULD go about it.

Here's the thing, though - we keep coming back to HUMAN potential, whereas humans are hardly unique in being super even just sticking to written official lore. Just off the top of my head, Calystix the Shaper has been consistently super for over 14 000 years, possibly longer than even the Circle of Thorns have been consistently super. The Snakes in general and Stheno in particular have been very much super for at least a few centuries, as well.

And we can't really argue that they never played a role. The Snakes were prominent in the Isles and worshipped as gods and Calystix has shown up many, many times over the aeons. The Banished Pantheon seem to have been active during the Civil War. And, lest we forget, Nemesis has been terrorising the world for 180 years now, and we can assume he was an active genus at least a few years before that just building up a base of operations to become the world terrorist he is remembered as. I'm not sure if Nemesis doesn't count as human, though, being that that's what he originally was.

Basically, Pandora's Box feels more like a plot device than something we want to integrate inside ongoing stories.

You know... I don't actually know what his Origin is. Let me go check.

*edit*
OK, it seems I made the guy a Science Stalker. Hell if I know why. I can always reroll for a new origin, however. Would also give me the chance to pick a better name. Speaking of which - what might that be?

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More to point - I'll play around with the different werewolf types suggested, but I'm somewhat dubious I'll be able to come up with one that doesn't look... Well, stock. It's this "just a werewolf" look that kills the concept for me as much as anything, and I don't know if adding more mystical stuff to him will really change that. I keep thinking we need to go in a direction that contrasts his werewolf nature, like the aforementioned biker werewolf which I don't think can work.

Thing is, if I lose the beast legs and I lose the tail, then there's really no point in keeping this guy a werewolf at all. He's not a werewolf if he doesn't look the part. Of course, that doesn't mean I won't do it, just that if I do do it, I might as well swap to a different concept altogether.

On the flip side... A tough guy werewolf in jeans and a leather jacket might not be such a bad idea. Hmm... Pity that head is so butt ugly, and immune to scale sliders, as well. But if I swap the legs AND the head, then I can't even feign werewolf, since the snout is such a big part of the design. The snout, but not necessarily that awful jaw.

Wouldn't that make him even more monstrous, though? More to point, the reason I used that cape with that chain is two-fold. On the one hand, the chain works very well with the cape, making it look like it's the chain that's holding it on, as it looks like it loops right under the collar. On the other hand, the original design was to make a werewolf that looked monstrous on the inside but seemed like he was trying to have some dignity on the outside.

Of course, the original look failed miserably, so I'm not really married to it. I wouldn't want to reuse the Gladiator + Chain combo, however, if for no reason other than because I've already used that on another character. I guess I could go about this another way, like spiked shoulders and a big belt, or maybe even a chest plate... Pity the Roman chest plates are level-locked.

That's not a bad idea, but it comes with one rather serious problem - the actual transformation. I can easily make two costumes - one human and one wolf, to swap between daytime and night time - but wouldn't that technically rob him of his skill in the day when he's human? I know you said master swordsman, but that then implies that the wolf form carries no benefits, which makes it a bit extraneous. Granted, that's basically what a werewolf basically IS, but I'm just trying to think of how to turn that into an in-game workable character. 'Course, my vampire dude doesn't have to worry about sunlight, so maybe I can make the transformation voluntary?

Actually, I think the cornerstone problem might be the werewolf shtick itself. Any way I turn it, a werewolf character feels like he should be strong, tough and fast - a "stand and fight" fighter. What I have here is a Stalker. Being a horrible monster and having to hide from people, Incredible Hulk style is not a bad story device, but when it comes to out-and-out combat, wouldn't the werewolf just break cover, flip out and kill stuff? That's kind of along the lines of why I abandoned the dude, as well as why I'm prepared to dump the werewolf aspect entirely.

I mean, I could make him a strong swordsman cursed into a beast, bulk him up a bit and give him tougher attire... But then that just makes me want to make him into a Brute. Crap... That poo-poos on the idea of a biker werewolf, as well. I need something that doesn't feel like it'd be strong enough to tear you limb from limb and would WANT to lie in wait instead of charging across open ground...

OK, that sounds plausible, and not really all that bad. Well, until you think about it too close - how does a "power drain" make people dumber?

Someone (not a developer) once said that Pandora's Box only affected characters ON EARTH and created super powers ON EARTH. If you have characters from outer space, then by all means, write them as having had powers since before Earth even existed.

Personally, it's an approach I like, if for no reason other than because it adds discontinuity to the Origin of Powers nonsense without actually adding discontinuity to it. Yeah, it's there. Yeah, it sucks. It doesn't have to apply to you.

However, it still begs the question - if people not from Earth are free to have powers and origins not limited by Pandora's Box... Aren't Earthlings are a narrative disadvantage? Why can't Earthlings have gained powers from sources OTHER than Pandora's Box? Why do we need Medichlorians to explain why smart people are smart? Can't aliens have different origins among themselves, like magical aliens, green men from Mars, the Zerg, etc.?

Daft Punk, yes. I don't know why I drew such a blank about them, considering I know who they are, I know some of their works and I've even seen interviews with the guys. They're civilians and they get to wear robot helmets, that our own are more than suspiciously close to

Since inception, perhaps. But I agree with a previous poster - Alien is fairly specific, and would have been more appropriate in a system with more origins of greater specificity.

The original City of Heroes origins included, I believe, an origin that was something like "Magic Artefact" and one that was something like "Wielder of Magic." I would not actually be opposed to such a system, as it would probably be more accurate, if also more restrictive, than the broad, loose definitions we have now. Such a system would also probably have to come with the prospect of dual origins, as well. It seems like it more defines the SOURCE of power, and many characters have multiple. Wasn't Dr. Doom an accomplished sorcerer as well as scientist in some continuities?

I honestly wouldn't criticise a game which had this if it came out today. It's just that this is most often suggested as an appendix to this game, in the form of an extra origin, and it creates more problems than it solves, I dare say.

*edit*
You know what would be simplest? Let us type in our own origin. Alien? Be my guest! Gadget? Why not? Kumquat? Err... Yeah, OK.

Yes, actually. Many times before. And the problems always remain the same:

1. Not all characters have secret identities. Not all characters COULD. When your character is a 10-foot-tall giant robot, you're really not going to pass off as a regular human. Or, on the flip side, when your characters hates all of humanity and is set to pretty much destroy everything, he wouldn't go about masquerading as a civilian. The Banished Pantheon cultists certainly never do.

2. You can already do that. Devote one costume slot to civvies, turn on walk and start walking around. A special game mechanic to do pretty much exactly this is not needed.

3. How do you define what "civvies" is? Just pants and jackets? Suppose my dude is a member of... What was that band which wore robot helmets to public appearances? I don't remember... What else? Oh, what if my guy were a member of Slipknot? Didn't Prince walk around with a long cape for a while?

Considering none of the Freedom Phalanx actually have secret identities, I don't think this is something that deserves an entire subsystem devoted to it.

Venture would disagree with you, as he has done in the past. Myself, I tried to entertain the notion once, but realised that ghosts are, at their core, an unnatural occurrence. The souls of the dead normally pass on into the afterlife, so for a soul to remain behind, SOMETHING unnatural has to happen.

Granted, that's using the more common definition (read: the Casper definition) of ghosts as souls with unfinished business. You could probably spin that around to make a ghost Natural if you asserted that a soul can linger behind by sheer force of will - in other words, choice - much like Ghost Widow did.

The origins system is flexible enough to allow this.

Everywhere else? Such as? What, throwing knives? Are we assuming aliens have to use future tech, mind control and space ships? A large percentage of my own aliens come from vastly UNDERDEVELOPED worlds of no real technology to speak of, bring powers with them that they were basically born with. One specific alien, in fact, comes from an alternate Earth where the world is hideously inhospitable and humans simply evolved to be big, tough and unkillable. Her PRIMARY POWER is an axe. How much stranger is it to have a throwing knife?

What else? Enhancements? The ones named after training disciplines and techniques? Why, are aliens precluded from knowing martial arts, being disciplined or training? Why does everyone always assume that just because a character is alien and born with certain powers, that this character has never had to train, persevere or practice to perfection? If we can assume that a person can train his body to gain greater physical strength, higher endurance and stronger bones, then why can a person who already has the ability to shoot energy out of his hands not train to shoot more energy out of his hands faster and with greater precision without exhausting himself? You don't need to be human to train.

What else? The origin of powers arcs? Both of the characters who talk about the Natural origin are natural humans, so obviously they'll speak about their own experiences. But the origin of powers contacts are provably wrong, and not just because I don't like what they're saying. They contradict each other on numerous occasions. Suppose that instead of Manticore, Percy Winkley sent us to speak with Sunstorm? Think he'd have told the same story? Probably not, but Sunstorm is just as qualified to speak about Natural characters as anyone, being that he's a Peacebringer of the Natural origin.

What, then? Where does the game assume that a Natural character is human, exactly? More specifically, where does the game assume a Natural character cannot be anything BUT human?

You are wrong in your assessment that powers are measured off a human base. That's not subject to opinion, that's a statement of a pretty strong FACT, and a fact which happens to be incorrect. Once again, the Natural origin measures powers by your species, even if that species happens to not be human, as is the case with Kheldians and, indeed, the Rikti. Ever notice how many Natural enhancements the Rikti drop? I honestly don't know WHY they do, but they do.

As always, I'm not about to get in the way of anyone defining any character as any origin that they have an argument for. What gets my nether goat, however, is when people start weaving theories about why the way I define origins and the characters who fit them is not right and the game should be altered to exclude it.

Almost all of my aliens right now are Natural, one being described as having her powers by right of birth. You suggest an Alien origin which would then become the de-facto "right" origin for that character and... Then what? Toss me an origin respec so I can change the origin of my level 50 Blaster? Into something I don't actually like?

I grant everyone's right to not be "wrong" on matters of origin as long as those matters remain within the current system of origins as they exist in the game without redefining other people's concepts for them. You cross that line when you suggest how other people's concepts - by virtue of being aliens - should be defined. It may not have been your intention, it may not have been your point, you may have tried to argue around it, but at the end of the day, that's presciently what you're suggesting: We are wrong to define our aliens as Natural because that's not what Natural should be and our aliens should go in another origin altogether.

In fact, you accuse me of arguing against game setting by claiming what's said in the game isn't true because I don't like it, yet you argue against game setting far more than I do by dismissing the system of origins as they are defined and described and suggesting your own, instead. And you flip this around to make me out to be the one bringing in extraneous arguments? Come on, dude!

Playing a few, and looking to play more. I want to expand my horizons as much as I can, and Stalkers are a prime target, being capable soloists, pretty strong when used right and without any staggeringly crippling weaknesses that I could determine. I want this for myself, yes

I can go for that. My intention was never to make Stalkers permanently and always completely invisible, and upon reflection, that would be a bad idea to suggest. I just wanted them to not be MORE visible than non-stealth-based ATs in a scrap. My biggest problem is that Stalkers pop up like a sore thumb once they do... Pretty much anything, and pop up in a much more visible way than Brutes, Scrappers and Tankers do. In fact, Stalkers have no tools in their arsenal to REMAIN stealthy like other ATs do, and they really should.

Having "most" of their invisibility suppress is a good way to go about it. Even if their Hide drops down to 35 feet of stealth radius when exposed, that would still be better than nothing. It would allow them to ply their trade QUIETLY like they should, and it should give Stalkers on teams just a smidgen more freedom of movement.

SOME USEFUL INFO:

I keep hearing how unsuppressing stealth would make Stalkers only ever aggro one target. This is not true. Most spawns in the game have some degree of chain aggro. If you attack one enemy in a spawn, the others will likely notice. If you kill one enemy in a spawn, the others will almost always notice. This puts aggro on the Stalker, and thereafter makes stealth meaningless against the enemies in question. Stealth does not guarantee fighting fewer enemies in a spawn. It guarantees fighting fewer spawns at once, which Stalkers really ought to be good at.

Personally, I feel Hide in general should have a "No Fade or Pulse" option like Cloak of Darkness. It's not described as outright invisibility, after all (not for things like Super Reflexes and Regeneration) but more just hiding, so it's not out of place to ask for your character to not turn into a ghost, but just, you know, hide. It would solve one of my chief aesthetic problems with Stalkers, that being that no Stalker I ever make will look very cool for the majority of the time thanks to the constantly-running Hide. Giving us an option can't hurt.

And, yes, very much add such an option for Energy Cloak. I don't understand why that was left out when Cloak of Darkness was given its No Fade or Pulse option.

You are wrong. The wording of the descriptions may be like this, but the wording of the descriptions is older than the game itself, and has been proven to be inaccurate when Natural was extended to read:



They are called "something-human" because it's the only non-stupid thing to call them, and because the phrasing was written into the game before someone woke up and realised how limiting this was. It could have been Jack, because his was the statement that Superman would be of the Natural origin here, and he's not human. Not to mention that the description of the Natural origin itself says "or perhaps you are not human at all." The world of City of Heroes is far too densely populated with aliens, extra-dimensional travellers and extra-planar creatures to divide characters into human and non-human.

"Alien" is not a legitimate origin, because the origin describes where the character's POWER originates, not where the character himself comes from. A person in power armour is of the Technology origin not because he IS technology, but because he USES technology. His powers are what is technology, not the person himself. To say a character should be of an "Alien" origin just because he's not from Earth is unintuitive, especially when that "alien" may be not too dissimilar from humans and instead use human technology. Or, hell, even magic. What, Earth is the only place magic exists?

You just quoted the single biggest piece of garbage in the entire game, Guy. This is by leaps and bounds the worst story this entire game has ever seen, and I'm counting the retcon to make Ubelmann's story about someone's grandma. I'm counting "The Statesman's head is so big that two of them can't exist in the same dimension." angle. I'm counting being sent to appear at a sci-fi convention in an abandoned warehouse in Crey's Folly. The Origin of Powers takes the cake, hands down. And it's quite obvious someone up top agrees, because we have never gotten an expansion on this storyline ever since, and it's been long enough. How much do you want to bet that, come Incarnates, they'll be explained as something OTHER than another origin?

More importantly, the contacts themselves are full of hot air, and they are written to be. Sister psyche babbles about there being no mutants since before the splitting of the atom... And then admits there actually were. Only they weren't mutants, they were psions or whatever that was. So what about all the mutants since before that that weren't psychic?

Furthermore, Virgil Tarikoss will tell you that humans "invented" magic and taught it to the gods while War Witch will tell you that the gods "invented" magic and taught it to humans. Positron will make an *** of himself by spinning theories of how we are all tied by an ethereal power of technology that people tap into when they invent things, pretty much taking a huge dump on what could otherwise have been pretty cool concepts, and Leon Brass eats people like me for breakfast, I assume saving people like himself for lunch and dinner.

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Origins are intentionally left vague so as to be subject to interpretation, bound only by what they CAN mean, and never by what they CAN'T mean.

Thing is, that's kind of what we were all asking for when the changes were being made way back when, but we were told that air knockback now took exactly as long as ground knockback and we should just deal with it. And now the change (provided it's intentional) is in without so much as a mention or a patch note? This fixes a longstanding problem.

This is pretty much the death knell of any story which wants to be taken seriously ever again. Once you start ascribing mystical cosmic origins to simple things like "I had an idea of how to make better lasers!" you pretty much kneecap your entire story, because nothing is ever again interesting. It's all the consequence of some larger force at work. Yes, that's pretty much what the Origin of Powers storyline suggests, but there is a reason why it's so often considered fan discontinuity: because it sucks more *** than those vacuum toilets they have on the space shuttle. It's a horrible plot device that not only hamstrings every person who ever wrote a character in City of Heroes, but it introduces Midichlorians to a universe which REALLY didn't need them. Not like there's a fictional universe which ever did.

Tapping into cosmic powers as an origin is fine. As ONE origin out of many. Sometimes you do indeed stumble upon great power and capitalise on it. Sometimes, however, you're just that awesome that you don't NEED a cosmic mcguffin to give you your powers. You may be born a badass, you may be a really smart guy who makes cool machines, or you may have mutated by chance, or a whole host of other things that DON'T include a single origin for all "supers" in existence.

It's not a bad idea, mind you, for a single standalone story, or as one optional path among others. But once you root that as the cornerstone of every character ever made by developer or player, you castrate the story in pretty much the worse way it can be castrated short of crippling gameplay changes.

You're welcome.

OK, I will concede to this point. Masterminds do indeed get the option to be unpowered and instead rely on others to do their fighting for them. I hadn't thought of that one.