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Okay, sure, but coming up with a narrative reason is, again, trivial. Like, it takes time for the effects of your crimes/heroic deeds to sink in. Or, so many people attempt fake redemption/corruption to pull a fast one on the other side that no one's really willing to believe it until they see some commitment...Or if there's really weird, unusual circumstances.
Also, I won't bother to quote him, but TG's assertion that rapid switches are always frowned upon by the audience is flat-out wrong. Every single reason I gave is an example of a perfectly valid plotline that could be well-received, or even one that has been well-received. Half of them were a joke about the way Angel/us switches alignment so many times in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a plot which was really well-received. -
Quote:Not to rain on your parade, but these things are, in fact, declarations of fact that either can or can not be proven true. It is impossible for either of those statements to be an opinion, because they are objectively quantifiable statements. You could actually make a scale to quantify both of them. Saying that a lack of narrative consistency is not a problem is an opinion. Saying that it exists at all is a factual statement.The previous statement was not. It was concrete, laying down statements as fact as follows:
*The game is consistent with power growth in content that is not incarnate trials.
*The game is inconsistent with power growth in content that is in incarnate trials.
If enemies gradually ascend in power throughout the whole game without ever suddenly dumping us back to Hellion-level threats until Incarnate content, then both the statements listed above are facts. The only way you can argue with either of them is with evidence (for example, if there's points in the game prior to Incarnate content that show us to be at pretty much the exact same level as we were at the beginning according to the narrative, despite the gameplay telling us the exact opposite).
Quote:Had it been based on Champions, however, you would have had more or less the alternative that you describe: characters that are mostly at their peak potential right from the very beginning, but who get to refine their abilities in subtle ways over time, or alternatively, save up their "experience rewards" for a big change (ala "radiation accident") somewhere down the line.
The upshot being that an end-of-game character will be substantially more powerful than a starting character, but because they've got five toggle buffs going and a dozen different attacks with lots of enhancement slots on all of them, as opposed to the starter character who's still running around with two or three starter powers, no enhancements at all, and only four inspirations.
Quote:Sam? Your entire argument about the game presentation being "consistent" is, and I'm sorry to be rude: hogwash.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...orySegregation
On the other hand, making the power levels consistent between gameplay and story is trivial in a super heroes game. Just rewriting some dialogue to explain that these guys who look like regular citizens with rocks have actually been imbued with the power of the ancient God of Rock-Throwing Citizens would do the trick, and even though that was the most entertainingly ridiculous answer I could come up with it is still only slightly more silly than the sorts of things that happen in comics (and CoX) all the time.
Your mechanics should match your narrative, not work against it. This is such a fundamental rule of game design that it can be used as a good metric for game design competency. If someone argues that mechanics working opposite the way the narrative says they should is a good idea or no problem, that's a very good sign that they shouldn't be making games (although it's worth noting that this is different from "this game will make us as much money as we need regardless, so screw it, let's just do whatever," which is not a very respectable attitude, but it's still rational and competent). -
I hope we get a replacement Super Captain America Man. I understand Statesman has drawn a lot of ill will due to being the in-game avatar of some guy no one likes anymore, but the local Justice League needs to have a big blue boy scout at the lead. That's how you do Justice Leagues.
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I think TG is being disingenuous. His argument of "immersion-breaking" doesn't even begin to hold up to scrutiny, which makes me feel he probably dislikes this for a completely different, much less rational reason. Coming up with plotlines wherein an instant change makes far more sense than a drawn-out rise or fall is trivial. Here's a few just off the top of my head:
-Surprise! I was secretly a Villain all along!
-I'm being mind controlled by an evil Circle of Thorns ritual!
-I was only a Villain because Arachnos had my family hostage!
-I was killed and brought back as an inherently evil undead Villain!
-But then a gypsy curse restored my old personality!
-But then I went Villain again after having sex with my girlfriend!
-But then I went back to normal and got my own spin-off show!
-I was completely reprogrammed by a Vigilante to switch from Villain to Hero!
And so on and so forth. -
It's possible that the CoX team wanted to mimic comic books, where character power levels are mostly static, but they do learn a few new tricks, especially in their early years (it took quite a while for Batman to get batarangs, for example). And that's actually totally doable as a game concept, even for an MMO. Unfortunately, that is not what CoX actually did, and unless they want to totally rewrite their game from the ground up, they should start writing their stories to match their mechanics.
If you wanted to make a game where the heroes, like Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Superman, stay at mostly the same level forever (while quietly ignoring the fact that one of these concepts is wildly more powerful than the others), you'd have none of your stats ever increase, just new powers and new enhancement slots (and a bigger inspiration tray and etc. etc.). That thing where headed to a higher-level area just kills you dead because the minions shave off a fifth of your HP with one attack? That can't happen anymore, because some archetypes will never have more defense, resistance, or HP than they started with.
That's an interesting idea, but it's not how the game works. The game starts you as being strong enough to take on Skulls in Hellions in the nice parts of town, progresses through super-powered and magical gangs lke the Outcasts and the Circle of Thorns, and then ends up taking on ancient conspiracies and eons-old demons. And by the time I'm level 50, the gun-toting thugs shooting gangsta style down in King's Row just aren't even a threat anymore, mechanically speaking, which means they shouldn't be a threat in the narrative, either. -
They should make it a toggle.
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Fighting increasingly fearsome opponents is a staple of the entire RPG model, going back to before the invention of video games. D&D has always followed the basic model of goblins->orcs->ogres->trolls->giants->dragons, with a few variations. The entire MMORPG genre is built on making you feel like you are becoming ever more powerful and important. This is way the Freedom Phalanx can't be perpetually superior to even the most dedicated and deep-pocketed player, and more relevantly, this is why you need your mobs to be ever more powerful as well.
There should be an option to decrease your level (and then immediately restore it to whatever the highest you've yet achieved is) in case someone's concept for their character just never moves past "beat up Skulls and Hellions on the streets of Paragon City," sure. But the narrative of the game needs to support the mechanics of the game, and the mechanics of the game have us being forty-nine levels and a bunch of hard-to-quantify Incarnate abilities above where we started.
I do feel I'm judging a bit too soon, though. I haven't even reached high-level play. -
Of all the things Lord Misogyny could be using female mind slaves for, I'm pretty sure "beat the crap out of Statesman" is about the only one that works precisely in the opposite direction of his implied goals. It's not like there's a way to make your minions bow down and kiss your feet whilst trembling in awe.
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I actually like this idea, particularly if it could be added as a permanent option for power customization. Basically, set both colors on the custom power effect to "clear." There's a character I'm running right now who makes sense as shooting fire, but not so much as being constantly surrounded by it.
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Unless you're intentionally doing a Watchmen style deconstruction (CoX isn't), your universe needs a Big Blue Boy Scout heading up its Super Friends. Making a Super Captain America Man was generally a good move, but making him (and the Super Friends in general) perpetually above the rest of the heroes was a bad idea. Also, Super Captain America Man needs to be likable, which in game terms means he needs to be useful. I typically like trainer characters, because they provide a valuable service. You want players to like Statesman, have him give the new guys free stuff when they finish the tutorial. Or have the established heroes give you free stuff at random when you're in their area (so for example, Statesman would probably be in Atlas Park, and he might randomly give you a free enhancement of your choice, or something).
Granted, I'm mostly going off of hearsay. My main is level 12. -
Cheaters.
Quote:I'm not sure how (or even if) hybrid "subscription" models are going to be counted. It's a lot harder than counting pure subscription games, and just "income from the game" isn't a great way of doing it (did a few people buy a lot of points? Or is it a bunch of people buying a few?)
For our purposes, though, it really doesn't matter whether the game is profitable because of 100,000 people making $5 impulse buys every week or one guy who is spending $500,000 on the game every week because he is insane and also stupidly wealthy. In both cases, the servers stay up and we keep playing. -
You know what's awesome? Facts are awesome. Let's have some facts.
First off, here is the (mostly) current Juggernaut's Club of MMORPGs, the ridiculously big dogs.
Note: All of these are absurd. WoW in particular has close to four times the subscriptions of any of its closest competitors. Aion is the new big huge thing. Runescape is massive. These games are all big deals to the entire industry, and in the case of WoW, to the entire world.
Here is the Big Boy's Club.
If you look at them, you will notice they fall into three categories.
1) Strong, healthy games that will not die for the foreseeable future. These include local heavyweights like LotRO and EVE, ancient and unkillable creatures like the EverQuests, and more recent products that are still currently healthy but may not stand the test of time, like Age of Conan.
2) Dying games. These ones all have one thing in common: Their peak was way higher than their current numbers and their descent has not been arrested. Warhammer Online started high but plummeted rapidly afterwards, and is now in its death throes. Whatever malady first afflicted Star Wars Galaxies in 2005 has finally killed it. Dark Ages of Camelot is suffering a similar slow demise.
3) Also, there's Rift. It's new.
The hallmark of games from the first category is that they have fairly stable server populations regardless of how big those populations are. Maintaining servers is actually super cheap (so much so that ArenaNet has made great profits off of Guild Wars using no subscription fees ever, which is why they aren't recorded on the charts), which means once the game has already been developed, there is no reason not to maintain the servers unless the subscription count drops to practically zero.
City of Heroes has that stable population of ~125,000 according to all available data. Now even if CoX profits are decreasing, so long as they level out at some point above about 25,000, Paragon will be fine. Overall, however, Paragon isn't acting like a studio facing decreasing profits. They're still churning out new content, they didn't jump on the F2P bandwagon until after bigger games with enough population padding to take risks had proved it was workable (most specifically, LotRO), and they're not making any sort of desperate money grabs like you usually see with companies about to go under. CoX remains the undisputed king of the super hero genre within the MMO industry (though dark horse challenger DCUO might unseat it eventually, and that actually could put CoX in hot water).
For the curious, there's also the charts for the Wannabes, most of which are already dead or half there, and the Never Stood A Chance category. Although Puzzle Pirates is on that last one and is actually doing fine, but you'll notice the data is five years out of date and that game's got graphics roughly on par with a flash game anyways.
Also, NCSoft is publicly traded which means we can actually download their earnings reports from their website. If you bother to download it, you'll note that CoX is pulling in about double the amount of money as Guild Wars in the past few quarters.* You may recall that Guild Wars is the game that's getting a sequel with awesome new bells and whistles which is hoping to unseat the other non-WoW industry leaders with its incredible new gaming paradigm. The one that's going toe-to-toe with Aion and The Old Republic. And Paragon is making twice the profits of those guys. This data came from November.
I think CoX is going to be fine.
*And also that holy crap NCSoft owns every platinum MMO except WoW, what shady MMO crime lord are they paying to get that kind of market dominance? -
So I skipped pages 4-7 or so. But there've been three common themes throughout this thread, and I'd like to address all of them.
1) MY WORDS ARE BETTER THAN YOUR WORDS
I actually just think this kind of nerd rage is kind of funny and I wanted to make fun of it.
2) The word 'toon' is part of the chatspeak plague!
This doesn't even make sense. "hei u ppl" is irritating to read because it breaks language conventions for no reason. It looks sloppy and is heavily associated with people who actually pride themselves on being only semi-literate, which means using it carries connotations of anti-intellectualism.* Every single one of those words has a proper spelling, and the first one is actually just as easy to type out. If you wanted to transcribe someone speaking that conversation aloud, you would write "hey, you people" instead.
On the other hand, "toon" doesn't break any language conventions at all. English is a living language and it picks up new meanings and even whole new words all the time. Shakespeare is lauded for inventing thousands of new words, so I don't understand why inventing a few is seen as a bad thing. I actually use the word "toon" in casual conversation about MMORPGs, and if you wanted to transcribe one of those conversations there is no more accurate way to do it than by writing out "I'm probably going to get a Praetorian toon for City of Heroes soon."
*As a side note, were it not for these connotations, chatspeak would be an unquestionably more efficient method of communication. Saving time and effort is a good thing, period. Unfortunately, words communicate more than just their literal meaning, and opening up a conversation with "hei u ppl" labels you as an idiot even if it is objectively superior in terms of raw efficiency.
3) My character has too much depth to be called a toon!
I always question whether people actually have the qualities they bring up in very tangentially related conversations. Regardless, for me at least, "toon" and "character" aren't synonyms. I have a toon called Burning Samael. He's a level 12 fire scrapper Hero with a pretty striking look (I think). I think I'm going to delete him and make a new one as a fire blaster instead, though, and just copy the appearance. I might also change the adjective on the name, because I'm not sure I like how it sounds.
On the other hand, I have a character named Samael. Samael is a sometimes over-serious vigilante. He doesn't intentionally kill the criminals he fights, but his powers are mostly related to setting things on fire and sometimes there's some collateral damage. His past is something I've put a lot of thought into, but I'm not going to write it out here, because once I get upgraded to preemie status I'll be able to start some actual in-game roleplay, and I want to introduce the character with a plotline that largely revolves around unraveling the exact circumstances behind the origin of his powers. In one of the flash fiction pieces I've been writing about him, there's a scene where he's out of costume. Despite the fact that Burning Samael the toon will never be out of costume and his successor <adjective> Samael probably won't either, the character Samael totally can take a shower.
Just my two cents.