Robbie_Redhat

There's two main problems with putting anything decent in as a reward now.

One is the problem there's always been, which is that for the most part there's no particular reason why something should be a reward or not. It's entirely arbitrary. So putting something someone actually wants in as a reward can come across as "You HAVE to wait and pay us subs for 4 and 3/4 years before you can have this! Ha!" rather than "Here's a bonus!" There's an implicit element of "We could just give you this now... but we're not going to." to it.

The other problem is sort of related, but it's just that how likely is it new players will ever get these rewards? 4 3/4 years would take us to October 2013. Will CoH still exist in its present form then?

It doesn't really work as an incentive scheme. If you have to subscribe for longer than may actually be practical to get something good, that's not much of an incentive. And if you have to wait forever to get something rubbish, that's obviously not much of an incentive either.

Personally, I still think they should have had a pool of rewards - or a set of pools if you like - with a selection from the appropriate pool as a reward. They could keep adding things to the pool so the oldest vets still have something to choose, but new players have a realistic expectation of getting particular rewards in something resembling a realistic time frame.

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One thing about MMOGChart though, is that the person who organises themselves has stated that the figures could be wildly inaccurate.

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If you check the analysis section of mmogchart, they go into detail about the specific accuracy of each MMORPG.

NCSoft and Linden both publish figures for CoH/V and Second Life respectively, so those figures are relatively accurate.

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As to your statement re difficulty, it is now far easier to kill mobs. Less debt, IOs and general game enhancements, allied to increased experience (which I had already allowed for in my post) mean that killing mobs is far easier than previously.

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Compared to when? I'd say it was easier before ED personally. Not a lot easier, but still.

I also don't think less debt or more experience makes it easier to kill mobs in general. It makes it quicker to move on, but the mobs move on with you just as they did before.

Personally, I don't think it's really significantly easier than it was. While there have been things that have made it harder, and things which have made it easier, the things which really make it too easy have never changed.

Basically, I think it boils down to this: the majority of the game consists of beating large groups of short-sighted hard-of-hearing and incredibly stupid mobs to a bloody pulp spectacularly, noisily, and quickly. Over, and over, again.

The only points where it gets hard are where there's a large level difference, or an AV, or an unexpected addition to the group you're fighting, be it from a patrol, an ambush, a second group you didn't notice due to the map design, or someone in your team getting confused and attacking a completely different group to everyone else.

I actually like playing on teams where someone's a complete lunatic for that reason. But I digress.

Personally, I agree with Leif, really making the game more of a challenge would require new behaviour for the mobs. Having more states than 'standing still concentrating very hard on making threatening gestures' would be a good start. There's lots of things that could be done in theory, but I don't know how much scope there is for improvement in the game engine. I live in hope though.

I think they should add more servers AND merge the existing ones.

I'm serious too. In a sense.

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It has merely been pointed out that by moving to another zone would have stopped him from greifing and allowed you to have continued ToTing, with only the scenery different. Not an ideal solution but the best one we have at the moment.

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It would stop the griefer from griefing them. The only way it would stop them from griefing anyone is if everyone only went to zones where they were near the top of the level range. It doesn't negate the issue.

Personally, I'd favour the suggestion (as mentioned by Standoff) of having the Halloween mobs always con white à la Rikti invasion mobs and the like.

Tuarus, I'm not going to continue arguing with you about this (after this post, that is).

Like I said, the idea that being able to go out of your way to avoid griefing means any such griefing is a non-issue is absurd. If someone gets mugged in a rough part of town, is it their own fault for going there? If they try to discuss the issue with their local community rather than only reporting the crime and keeping quiet, are they moaning? Of course not. (Note: obviously I'm not saying the two are identical in seriousness, only that the principle is similar.)

And the original post was along the lines you say you'd have sympathy with - it puts forward the suggestion that something needs to be change with the Halloween spawns, states why the poster came to that conclusion, and offers some ideas as to what could be done. It's hardly a 'poor us' post.

No. It doesn't magically become moaning because it's in one thread instead of another. That's just 'not noticing the other thread'.

And GhostRaptor's post in that thread consisted of the word 'precisely' relating to petitioning harrassment. Petitioning is not an alternative to discussing issues on the forum. It is a separate thing.

There is no need to label people as moaners just because they point out that being able to avoid griefing doesn't make it a non-issue. It's not constructive in the slightest.

Tuarus, if you start a post saying "Not saying you have to", it's probably best not to continue it by saying (paraphrasing) "but if you don't you're just moaning and making an issue of it".

The idea that if someone's being griefed they shouldn't post about the underlying issue if they could go out of their way to avoid it is, honestly, a bit silly.

Discussing the issue on forums is not a bad thing. Talking about things is what forums are for. And Vox - and FFM, and Standoff - made constructive points as to changes to the game mechanics that could alleviate the problem. I wouldn't really consider that just moaning.

Good luck with whatever's next!

If you need references, I'm sure we could provide some...

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Yes but in that one week the petition has caused havoc throughout the city. So City hall would act pretty quickly regarding it.

Oh and i have a draft of the statement from City hall already written up, i could post it for your views on it and any wording change you'd like to see if i am indeed allowed to post it as a topic

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Missed this post before:

I wouldn't say it's caused havoc. A relative few (relative to the number of heroes in the city) refusing to sign it, arguing about it, and writing letters to the local rags, isn't really havoc. Protest marches, statues being vandalised (by heroes/civilians rather than by the usual villainous activities), rioting, that would be havoc. Fun too. Although even then, I'm not sure anyone would really notice. This is Paragon City after all.

Seeing the draft could be interesting, but might also detract from the impact if/when it's released? I'd personally be happy to offer input on it via PM though.

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Sure, it's not essential, but it's a pretty obvious sensible thing to do.

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Why should that start now

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It's never too late.

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Some friends of Suzie (undefined, not player character) have coppied the petition for distributing (therefor easily NPCed by... anyone, really)

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Indeed, but given that no-one else is playing those friends, and that the petitions would most likely eventually (not typically in just a few days) end up with said friends or the originator of the petition, it's just common sense to PM Ammon to ask as a player character whether the petitions are ending up with them for them to do something with or not. And if not, if it's ok for them to take it that one of the said friends has gathered the petitions in and handed them into City Hall. Sure, it's not essential, but it's a pretty obvious sensible thing to do.

Seriously, there's no rush here. If someone has PM'd Ammon and doesn't get a response in a reasonable timeframe - and in the context of a petition, a few days is fine - then by all means push ahead. But PM'ing them is just common sense, surely?

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if i get permission from Ammon.

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Why wait for that?
It's freeform, there is no GM, there is no need for permission.

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Because it may depend on Ammon as a character player rather than Ammon as a GM?

Personally I'd wait at least until Monday. Even just one week seems rather hasty for making a statement on a petition.

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Now I recognise that a lot of people here are very pro Railroading, maybe at the very least make a note that as soon as some people realise that it's happening they will certainly step away from the plot?

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And naturally the same if you're in a plot that's not sufficiently railroaded/plotted/etc. for your liking.

Personally, I think the only universal rule of roleplaying is that there are no universal rules of roleplaying. The biggest divide I see in MMO roleplaying is that some people prefer to stick within the limits of the game - i.e. no playing NPCs, non-heroes, etc., just playing the characters mostly within the game, and some - usually, but not always, the more organised types - prefer to effectively use the MMO as an environment and go beyond the limits with the whole shebang of GMs, tightly defined plots, playing NPCs, etc. and usually a whole bunch of extra organisations and other background which isn't a part of the game world otherwise - all of which naturally brings with it a whole lot of extra rules. Note I'm not talking about CoH specifically here.

It's usually pretty obvious who's taking what approach though. Personally, I think the main piece of advice is to remember that your way (generic your, not directed at anyone specific) is not the only way, and not to try and enforce it on others, taking part in plots/events/etc. or not accordingly.

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The best you can do is have someone hand in a petition at City Hall and to have City Hall issue a statement that the petition is being considered. You cannot write plot for Cryptic, you cannot change the game, and you will not hear a reply from Cryptic about any memorial in time for us all to hold a vistory party for White Vampyre at Pocket D.

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My point is that handing a petition in to City Hall is the equivalent of making a suggestion to Cryptic. City Hall can ignore it (and probably will judging by the level of contention regarding the issue). Cryptic can ignore it. Doesn't stop them being equivalent, or rule out the possibility that a more universally supported suggestion might actually have some impact.

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If we did wait for such a victory party, keeping up this level of 'entertainment' I can guarantee that just about everyone will have quit roleplaying by the end of it.

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This kind of thing would take months IRL, but people wouldn't spend every day demanding to know about any progress and arguing about it. Well, some people might, but in general they wouldn't. You play the active part, you let it drop in to the background. Maybe it dies there, maybe it doesn't and it comes back into the foreground later. It's only a problem if people make it a problem.

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I wish to publicly praise Ammon for his initiative and creativity. Well done! Not nearly everyone knows how to do something like this.

Kudos, man!

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I'd like to second this. I like this approach and I've enjoyed reading the IC thread. Kudos indeed.

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I think the small amount of released information regarding this storyline has resulted in people improvising. I think that is causing confusion and too many plot problems.

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That's always a risk with the more freeform approach. But it also often results in some of the best plots, storylines, and characterisation you'll see, as evidenced by the IC thread. How well it goes is very dependent on the ability of the players though, and on the whole, that seems to have been quite high IMO.

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Mostly, I think that no one is in control of this 'plot' anymore and it's fallen into chaos and bickering, and it needs to be shut down.

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I disagree with that. If you look at the participation overall, it's only been a few who could be said to have been bickering. I don't think the whole plot should be shut down because of that, particularly since it appears that those who do have problems have now made the sensible decision not to participate.


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As I've said, this plot cannot result in anything actually happening. If we get a memorial park in I10, we can look back and say that "that damn petition did some good at least." But we aren't going to get a reply from Cryptic about that anytime soon, and we cannot change the world our characters live in, except on a personal level.

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That's not a reason not to try. Anyway, it could always be linked into the Suggestions forum if the petition actually ended up getting a significant level of support!

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If people responding IC to this petition assumed different, then they would have also posted the collectors delivering said signatures to central points, or RP'd asking for such information. But like me, they didn't as they made a reasonable assumption that there was no NEED to, as it appeared to be an organised petition. We still have not been given any IC reason to know otherwise.

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Erm... FFM, this is an OOC conversation isn't it? You may well have assumed that IC. But you're asking what's happening to it OOC. Making the assumption IC is fine, but we're not IC. If you have those concerns IC ask them IC. If you don't have them IC, why do you need to know now OOC?

Secondly, your logic is flawed. I assumed differently - that it was pretty disorganised, just people passing forms on to people and passing them back again, ad hoc - but I didn't post anything about them collecting or delivering them, nor do I see a need to right now. Maybe in a week or two if nothing had happened I would. Petitions aren't usually quick things.

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Nothing wrong with it per se, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a GM to respond to IC actions visibly. Several days have passed since the Scotbot handed those signatures over. Once the player took that action, it was down to the GM to respond in some way, even if such response took the form of a private PM. It's still the GM's job to let players know actions have been acknowledged in some way.

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Has the player in question PM'd the OP (I'm not saying GM because, you know, it's freeform)? Is it anyone else's business until it becomes public?

And several days? Petitions, as I've already said several times, often take weeks.

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I didn't say I want to know outcomes in advance. I said I made the reasonable assumption that a signature, once given, would make it's way to the petition organisers, as going by the way the whole thing was presented to us, it WAS an organised petition. No mention was made to it being otherwise, and without that, it's a natural assumption to make. Nor am I the only person to have made said assumption.

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But there are also plenty of people who haven't made that assumption. And what do you mean by 'the way it was presented'? With the initial statement that it was 'circulating'? That's hardly a sure sign of something being organised. What about the complete lack of any deadline to the petition, or a formal statement of what will be done with it? Those are pretty clear indicators of it not being organised, aren't they?

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Ignoring significant events like that is either bad GMing, or leads people to believe the plot is railroaded, with unforseen events ignored as they don't fit the profile.

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That's odd, because personally I find myself thinking that effectively demanding (which is what accusations of bad GMing and/or railroading are likely to achieve) the OP does certain things is bad playing. Isn't this a freeform thing, as the OP has said?

If whoever initiated that particular bit of plot wants to know what the OP would do with the signatures, here's a crazy idea - PM them and check that it's possible to get the signatures back to them. If they say then it's in their hands. If they do nothing - hey, guess what, that's an entirely reasonable thing to do! They could sit on it for a week if they want. Nothing wrong with that.

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Therefore, using ONLY the IC knowledge from that original post, it is wholly reasonable to assume proper distrubution and collection channels, and that's the way all the IC posts have handled it as far as I can tell.

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I haven't seen any of the IC posts talking about collection of the completed petitions. They've just had people collecting signatures. That can happen quite naturally, as I described. It is not clear that it's being done in an organised fashion. Quite the opposite (er, opposite as in it's clear that it's not ultimately organised, not opposite in that it's unclear, unlike this sentence )

It's quite obvious what's happened to the collected signatures so far. Nothing. If the OP hasn't come back and said 'these signatures have reached me and they've been handed in at City Hall' then they haven't been, have they? That's quite reasonable. Petitions normally run for a while. Don't be so impatient.

That said, if anyone wanted to have their collector unable to contact the OP (presumably after actually trying to do so OOC) and collect the petition forms together and hand them in at City Hall themself, they could. But no-one's done that either. Of if they wanted to have someone in their chain have second thoughts and dump the lot they could do that too.

I'm quite taken aback with the seeming demand to know the outcome and plans of things here in advance. I certainly don't expect that when roleplaying.

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((here's where it gets fuzzy))
5. she asked her friends to sign it - they did without comment on wording?
6. ... her friends took copies and passed it on? which then got passed on to more people thinking it was a good idea
7. People started to object. tabloids got a hold of it blah blah blah and here we are now.

so.. from where i'm sitting it appears that there's no plans made for storing or counting or validating any information collected. This i see to be white/your responsibility to clear up for us please.

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I don't think it is fuzzy, Quilla.

'You see, Suzi merely printed out a few dozen copies of a petition form and handed some to friends.'

She printed out forms and gave them to her friends. It got circulated from there, obviously, because the whole starting point was that the petition was circulating. It's apparent that some of them did indeed pass it on, and that's how it's been played in the IC thread. Whether any of them disagreed with the wording and didn't pass it on is interesting, but a matter for whoever might be playing those characters. From the point of view of the rest of us, they opted out so we're not interacting with them - it's moot.

As for there being no plans, that's been answered already as well: 'As far as I know, a load of young male heroes, none of whom know Suzi directly, are going around idealistically with copies of a petition that noone knows what to do with.' Yes, there would appear to be no plans. That's pretty clear isn't it?

For my part, the campaigner collecting the signatures would be intending to pass the form back to the friend he got the form off, who was in turn going to pass it back to their friend who they got the form off, and so on. At some point someone further up the chain will collect them - perhaps it'll all get back to the originator of the petition, perhaps someone further down the chain will be unable to get back in touch and will just take the responsibility for collecting them themself and deliver them to City Hall, perhaps the petition will just die out. That's how these ad hoc spur of the moment things tend to work.

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edit: who said they were issued the list? they could have stolen it or "obtained it" from somewhere partial or full. there's many things that need to be clarified - are they "cold calling" on hero's houses are they staing in plaza's like those annoying gouranaga people (the first time is cute.. not so much the 50th).

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It was an example. But yes, they could have stolen a list or whatever, but as I said what they'd done would be questions for whatever poster has them doing so, not for the OP! If another poster has a petitioner calling at their character's house, how is the OP supposed to know how the petitioner knew their address?

If you want to know if petitioners are cold-calling, ask whoever had them possibly doing so. It's entirely reasonable they could be regardless of anything the OP says - the OP isn't claiming control of all possible collectors of petitions, quite the opposite.

For my part, the campaigner was a regular person standing outside one of the hospitals trying to collect signatures.

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You see, Suzi merely printed out a few dozen copies of a petition form and handed some to friends. As yet, not one person has RP'd delivering such a list anywhere, and Suzi did not provide any instructions as to what to do with them that I can see in the letter.

As far as I know, a load of young male heroes, none of whom know Suzi directly, are going around idealistically with copies of a petition that noone knows what to do with.

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They're hardly going to come back and say, "Oh, and it's officially backed by Paragon City Hall and all the people collecting signatures have been issued with a list of the residences of all registered heroes." are they?

It seems pretty clear that it's an informal petition that's spreading naturally, and that seems to be how everyone in the IC thread has been playing it as far as I can see.

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so it's perfectly acceptable to use whatever means they're using to track down heroes to their homes to harras them into signing a petition?

I think i'll wait for the OP to reply to some other issues before continuing

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Did I miss the post where the OP had petitioners tracking down heroes to their homes?

The majority of posters seem to have had their characters approached in a public place. Those who've had their characters approached at home - well, they'd be the best people to ask why, not the OP. But most of them accounted for it anyway, either by having someone they knew (another character?) presenting the petition, or by having the petitioner knowing that they lived there and looking for them specifically - precisely why, you'd have to ask the poster - or being recognised outside their house.

I don't see any indication in those posts that the petitioners are tracking down all heroes and harassing them. Unless I missed it, but even then that would be something to take up with that poster, not the OP, surely?

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you could but unless the company or government who are supposed to be the ones making the change actually give two damns about what you want done then there's no point - without some sort of idea that there'd be an agreemet to do something if you get these signitures the entire exercise leaves a foul taste in the mouth.

"i got all these signitures! change the city!"

"no"

"oh.. you don't care about what the people want!"

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The idea behind a petition isn't to fulfil one end of a formal agreement drawn up in advance - I can't think of any actual petitions that follow that approach off the top of my head - but to demonstrate the public support for an idea. And I can think of a ton of petitions like that. Even if I couldn't, two quick visits to http://www.petitiononline.com/ and http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ would set me straight.

Of course whoever the petition is submitted to can ignore it, but they do so at their peril. They are put under pressure to submit to whatever the petition asks for, because if they ignore it they show they're not willing to listen, and they run the risk of the petitioners taking further action - e.g. boycotting, or not voting for them, etc. That's why there's always a point to them.

So I really don't see why it would have to be officially backed by anyone. I'd think it odd if it was.