Rigel_Kent

So I was going to kneejerk with a "SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW" reply, but you put so much effort into the post that I slept on it.

I think the root of the problem is this: the devs hate crowd control, but love damage. They want control powers to suck for as many ATs as they can get away with, but want all ATs to be able to deal damage. Result: Control powers are artificially sucktastic for ATs such as defenders, while controller damage only sucks for the 2 seconds it takes for Containment to kick in.

This suggests one way to fix it: Share the team-role bending love. Subdue could be a 100% mag 4 root (like controller roots), Will Domination could be a 100% mag 4 sleep (like Mesmerize), Petrifying Gaze Stunning Shot Bitter Freeze Ray Screech and Scramble Thoughts could recharge faster and deal decent damage, Freeze Ray and Tesla Cage could deal better damage (like controller holds), Howling Twilight Dark Pit Repulsion Bomb and Thunder Clap could be mag 3 stuns (like controller stuns), and ZOMGTRICKARROW. This is just defender changes, so it's not exactly how I'd fix it if I were king, since I'd also get to adjust Containment if I were king, but it's close.

Doesn't help all the defender sets, true, but some defender sets have issues with or without comparing them to controllers.

How do we feel about Absorb Pain dealing more penalty damage to defenders than to controllers?

For comparison, the penalty damage on Energy Transfer was adjusted to account for stalkers having a higher damage multiplier: 3.00 self-damage to stalkers, 3.75 self-damage to tankers, so after AT multipliers they're exactly the same self-damage for both ATs after level 20.

Defenders have a higher damage multiplier than controllers, so Absorb Pain's self-damage would have to be reduced from 3.00 to about 2.54 to equalize the damage in the same way as Energy Transfer.

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Kinetics is the worst case

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Kinetics is pretty bad, but at least there's some synergy with defender secondary nukes.

I'd say Empathy is in the running with Kinetics for worst defender/controller discrepancy. Fortitude aside -- yes, quite a bit nicer on defenders -- we've got HA/HO barely 14% better for defenders, CM/AP where the defender advantage is unimportant, and Res/RA/RA/AB which are identical. In practice, controllers can have a pet to benefit from HO/AP/CM/Fort/AB while soloing, and Absorb Pain does less damage and fits better for controllers as an end-saving secondary while teaming.

Despite the numbers, I don't forecast any doom or gloom for the defender AT. Players who are willing to walk away from small buff/debuff/heal advantages in favor of large damage advantages don't play defenders. They're playing controllers.

Who plays defenders now? People who don't know better (r u hlr?), people with concepts that fit the defender "flavor", people who like the AT despite its shortcomings, and Psi Blast weirdos. These people aren't likely to be tempted by redeemed corruptors.

So if anything, look for redeemed corruptors to lure a few controller players away. (Proliferation might lure a few Trick Arrow/Archery types away, but that's Issue 16, not Going Rogue.)

Issue 16: Panic in Atlas Park as virtual heroes are confronted with a sudden influx of non-healer defenders. WILL FARMING SURVIVE?

The nicest thing I can say about presence pool: Perfect Zinger and Glimpse of the Abyss are low cost ways to get a bit more global recharge.

Concept is concept, go with what makes sense. That way, whether a power gets buffed or nerfed, which you can't control, you still have the power that matches your concept, which you completely control. (That, and presence pool is massively overdue for a buff.)

Throwing my vote in for Psi/MM blaster or */Psi defender or */Psi dominator.

Telekinetic Blast, Telekinetic Thrust and Psychic Scream have that insta-hitting head-flash thing, just like Blind from Illusion Control. The other attacks have funky projectile graphics, but the little circles kind of match your costume. Speaking of circles, did you know Subdue/Subdual is my favorite power to watch and contemplate, like a lava lamp?

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But hey, at least I'll be able to take Radiation Blast and color it red when I16 hits and "pretend". Still not the same though.

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Fixed. Not that I'm planning on doing that. Maybe. -cough- >_>

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Sheesh, from the sound of this thread it's like Traps will have the first defender primary powers ever to not be better for defenders than for other ATs.

But it's a good point. Let's see how the set changes in a direct port with new defender-scaled pets, and work from there.

Web Grenade: 25% more immobilize duration, -62.5% rechspd/runspd instead of -50%
Caltrops: -100% runspd instead of -80%
Acid Mortar: -27% resist instead of -20%, -25% or -33% defense instead of -20% (depending on whether we use corruptors or masterminds as the "base")
FFG: +13% defense instead of +10%, 33% more status protection magnitude
Poison Trap/Poison Gas: 25% more hold duration, -37.5% recharge instead of -30%
Seeker Drones/FlashPulse: 25% more stun duration, -6% or -8% tohit instead of -5% (depending on corruptor/mastermind "base"), -25% or -33% damage instead of -20% (ditto)

... so, yeah, I can see how new scaled pets are going to be important. Without them, the only thing that gets better for defenders in a direct port is Web Grenade.

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My ( wholly unsubstantiated ) hope is that they'll decide to make Triage Beacon mobile, for Defenders and everyone else.

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Or find some way of reducing its recharge time and endurance cost so you can redeploy it as you go.

Regeneration Aura: +500% regen for 90s, 500s recharge, 26 end cost
Triage Beacon: +150% regen for 90s, 200s recharge, 13 end cost

Based on a rough comparison to Regeneration Aura, a reduction in Triage Beacon's base recharge to 150s and base end cost to 7.8, for all ATs, should be fine. No need to change the buff, duration, or pet limit to compensate. 30% of the effect, 30% of the recharge and end cost, fair right?

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This is also happening Villainside, where my Therm gets spammed for "Healer" invites...despite the fact my Shields, buffs and Tier 8/9 in Thermal are far more useful?

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Random thought. I've always thought the new 5th APP for blaster flame mastery should be a buff/debuff, e.g. 41 Bonfire/Char, 44 Fire Shield/Forge, 47 RotP. What if more buffs/debuffs were added to non-buff/debuff ATs' APP/PPPs, or maybe even to the regular pools? Would more accessibility lead to better understanding? We got a little bit during the last APP/PPP expansion, Melt Armor for tankers and Darkest Night for brutes, but I'd love to see more.

(And I certainly won't complain if blasters get Melt Armor instead of Forge. Seriously.)

P.S. My new defender, Nurseman, has been on search /hide since Outbreak. So, um, I think I've wriggled my way out of most of the headaches discussed in this thread. Phew.

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if they changed it to a chance for stun, I wouldn't complain.

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I would.

We have enough sets for low utility high DPS single target beatdown already.

The statistical correlation between defender primary popularity and healing can't be overstated. It's ginormous. So unless there are Healing Bombs we don't know about, we won't see much Traps after the first week of Issue 16.

Still, if it's just a handful of forum people playing Traps in the long run, that's A-O-K with me.

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Eh, sorry, not paying $10 for a costume set, 4 emotes and a feature that shouldn't be extra.

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If it were just the costume set and the emotes, and the tailor enhancements had been included no-extra-charge for everyone, I'd have bought it. Funny how that works. I'll have to scrutinize the quality of Issue 16's no-extra-charge content -- I was starting to doubt whether I'm getting my $15/month worth lately and holding back on buying extra accordingly, but Issue 16 looks promising.

Well, somebody's got to start it.

Assault Rifle and Traps to be proliferated to defenders in issue 16, announcement here.

Re: psi resists in Clarity

Increase Density (stackable status protection plus nonstackable smashing/energy resists) works fine.

Re: Sonic Siphon

The only thing Sonic Siphon needs is to be made fully, outrageously, abusively stackable. Infrigidate too. Why should heals be the only level 1 defender primaries allowed to be spammed ad nauseum?

In some games, by building to be "purely" doing just one team role and ignoring all others, you get rewarded by being better at that team role. Talents. Equipment. That kind of stuff. Just keep in mind that this game doesn't have talents, or equipment. Ignoring team roles means precisely that -- you're ignoring team roles.

So as long as you're clear you've got a roleplay/concept character, or you're ignoring team roles because you don't find them fun, both valid reasons to play "pure" support, no problem. We can move on.

Level 6: Stealth
Level 24: Hover
Level 30: Super Speed
Level 35: Fly

That's a lot of travel powers for a support build. If you're going for the Hover/Fly+combat invisibility thing, use a stealth IO instead and free up a power (plus a chunk of endurance per second).

In its place, add a couple of dark blasts. Mez effects are definitely considered support in this game. Dark Pit, well slotted, will render just about all the minions in an entire mission a non-threat -- and it animates fast, too. Tenebrous Tentacles keeps stuff from moving around and takes a nibble out of their accuracy as well. Take both if you can--you can drop Moonbeam to make room.

As for recharge-addicted slotting, 5xStupefy + 1xRechargeIO goes nicely (and cheap!!!) into Dark Pit for a 6.25% recharge bonus plus an easy-to-spam minion removal button. And if a fight's going bad? No problem, stack it and take out the LTs and bosses too.

Tenebrous Tentacles gives you options: 5xPositron's Blast + 1x(Membrane/Centriole/PeroxisomeHO) is sexy but expensive, 4xCloud Senses + 2x(Centriole/PeroxisomeHO) is perhaps even sexier due to being cheap, and both give you a 6.25% recharge bonus. 5xEnfeebled Operation + 1x(Membrane/CentrioleHO) gets you a lower 3.75% recharge bonus in case you're already maxed out on 6.25% bonuses. You can optionally complete the Cloud Senses set if you want more nice bonuses--6xEnfeebled Operation adds 5% movespeed (nice for combat hover) and 3.75% ranged defense.

If I had to guess, I'd say we're likely to see a direct port of Dark Blast. My gut feeling is that Mental Manipulation had to take powers from Psychic Blast because of a shortage of psychic melee attacks and psychic utility powers to fill out the set. There is definitely no similar shortage of dark melee attacks or dark utility powers to build a Dark Manipulation set.

More problematic is Radiation Blast, which stands to lose some nice powers if a Radiation Manipulation set needs them.

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You are the one trying to use some odd logic here. I clearly defined what I considered to be "built into the game" in my post, and you quoted it. Choosing a new power. Something that only happens when you level up. In other words, something happening through normal gameplay.

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Now "normal gameplay" sounds like "stuff they don't charge extra for." Define normal gameplay?

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And they don't charge us for leveling up

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Interesting point.

What if Going Rogue raises the level cap to 60 for everyone? Would levels 51-60, available to everyone good enough to get there, be something you'd call "normal gameplay" or "built into the game"? I'd guess yes.

Now, what if Going Rogue raises the level cap to 60 but only for people who buy the expansion? Would levels 51-60, which cost extra, be something you'd call "normal gameplay" or "built into the game"? If no, remember that the only difference between these two scenarios is whether the levels cost extra.

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Your example is "use an optional power" then "use an optional power". Neither power is required for normal gameplay nor is it something that is built into the game the way leveling up a character and choosing a new power is.

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Oh man, another "optional"/"required" post? Sorry, I went off on another poster for doing this last page, it's driving me nuts. Define "optional" for me, please! Keep in mind that playing this game at all is something many people would consider optional. Also keep in mind that I'm not sure what you mean by "normal gameplay".

Hasn't fire/kin controller always been the farming build?

Quick observation re: Super Reflexes

There's a lot of disagreement in the thread over SR. Perhaps it's because two of the archetypes who get SR can pair it with Parry/Divine Avalanche but one can't? Would it be better to qualify Super Reflexes as underperforming for brutes only?

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We have two kinds of optional stuff you can buy right now. First are the full expansions, the first of which you get for FREE now

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Doesn't mean I get my money back, does it? Double dip.

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Next you'll complain that DLC for most games is not free, either.

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Double dip. The fact that you predicted my opinion doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it consistent.

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The other optional stuff are the Booster packs, which are, frankly, neglectable. Wow, self-destruction and tarot-reading.

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You've completely missed the booster pack and the feature that are the topic of this thread. Height slider and model changing are not nearly as neglectable as the more convenient examples you've chosen.

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Pretty much any successful MMO that's been around for more than a year or two puts out at least one expansion. Everquest, Everquest II, FFXI, WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, LotRO...the list could go on. And on. And on.

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Your definition of "successful" is suspicious. And looks a bit circular. If what you're saying is that some MMOs can get away with double dipping, that's true, but it doesn't change the fact that they've double dipped.

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month is uncommon. That's the price most MMOs are set at.

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The price of most MMO monthly subscriptions is $0. I doubt more than ten to twenty, including all of NCSoft's, are $15.

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CoV was once completely optional, as will be Going Rogue.

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I don't see your point. First, and most obvious, all expansions to all MMOs are optional. Subscriptions are optional too; we can cancel any month. None of that alters the fact whether expansions+subscriptions is double dipping or not.

Second, the "optional" defense is one of my pet peeves for how truthy-sounding yet utterly false it is. Basically, the "optional" defense goes like this: the devs can do no wrong because the whole game is optional. We can love each and every thing the devs do, or we can cancel our subscriptions and give you our stuff. How convenient for the devs' forum supporters, eh?

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Double-dipping would be charging us a monthly fee, then charging us again each time we wanted to do something built into the game itself, such as choosing a new power.

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-reads your fortune, then selfdestructs-

The flaw in your argument is that you appear to define "built into the game" as "things that don't cost extra". They don't charge extra for things "built into the game" --> they don't charge extra for things they don't charge extra for --> circular logic.

Most games charge monthly fee only or up-front only. A few money-grubbers, the most expensive MMOs, charge monthly and for major expansions. CoH is somewhat unique in charging monthly (an industry topping $15/month) and for major expansions and for minor expansions too. I know major vs. minor is subjective, but it feels like double dipping to me. Part of the reason I'm not buying it--when customers start feeling like a product is worth less than its price, either because the value goes down (Issue 15 lol) or the price goes up ($10 for the long-desired height slider... and not much else), they can change their minds like that.

Even better, like the Auction House sliders when you add multiple items. Slide it left to lower values, slide it right to higher values, or input a number in the text field.

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... due to the fact that people are now doing Boss Farms, which require atleast some type of heal.

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True. Still, 54 boss farm teams are intricately minmaxed chimeras. It's a little misleading to single out just one head of the beast (hp buffing) without mentioning the seven other equally required pieces.

Also 54 boss farm teams give me pre-purple patch flashbacks. Remember in the not-so-good old days how debuffs were regarded as worthless because they scaled down to insignificance against deep purples? Yeah, it's kind of like that. Lolissue14darkmiasma = Lolissue1darkmiasma. Look for "all debuffs (and mezzes) underperforming all buffs (and heals) against the game's most rewarding content" to rear its ugly head again in the defender issues thread.