Razor_Shultz

Now we are starting to reach a compromise. All we need now is input from the devs. if positron says levelling from 1-50 in a day is too fast, i'll level 1-50 in 2 days.

If he says 2 days is too fast,, i'll do it in 3 days. Positron's new policy will be satisfied, and i as a player will still be able to level as fast as i possibly can.

Yes, let's.


Just like every other time the NCsoft staff have attempted to introduce rules which reduce farming, i think this one will end up with people leaving COV, which is the last thing we need.

Precisely. Much like in real life, farmers work tirelessly for items which we buy with our money. We don't need to spend months growing crops (in this analogy, spend hours killing enemies)

While the farmers are the ones who grow crops tirelessly (kill enemies without stopping) so we can buy their crops (recipes/items) with our money we worked for in our own way (money from our job/infamy in the game)


if many anti-farmers had to farm their OWN purples, and actually experienced what it was like to endlessly kill enemies until a purple dropped for you, i guarantee they'd beg for farming to come back.

Thanks Fury. Everyone who has posted a definition so far has agreed with me in saying, the definition of an 'exploit' MUST include the premise of said exploit giving 'an unfair advantage over other players'

Now that the majority of intellectual posters agree with me on what an exploit is, and we're done arguing if farming is an exploit (because by this reasoning it isn't)

we can move on to disscuss how to compromise the problem for those who want to level as quickly as possible, and those who for whatever reason, don't want them to.

regardless of what you call offtopic SingStar, i am going to continue to follow the pace the topic has evolved into.


Also, singstar, stop PMing me. Keep your complaints public.

Thanks for contributing fury.

No one should underestimate farming as a social function. The amount of times i've met some of my global friends farming is amazing.

This is another reason to support farming, and one that had escaped my mind, Thanks for helping to strengthen the argument FOR farming.

The OP talks about the MA system, and it being 'fixed' it can be assumed the OP referred to it as broken due to the alledged farming, and exploits disscussion going on surrounding it.

Ergo, my post is relevant.

I think the 'majority' are people who are against the 'MA FARM PLOX' spamming, positron has never stated if the aforementioned 'majority' were opposed to farming itself.

Being opposed to farming BECAUSE it causes something that that they personally don't like and may NOT actually be the case with the significant majority, is a weak reason to oppose farming.

yes, although that is essentially correct, within city of villains, i feel, and have found significant evidence for the existence of farming being a good thing.

For example, in other games, (100% pvp games) for example, exteel, exploiting developed systems will lead to an advantage OF ONE PLAYER OVER ANOTHER.

However, since PVP in COV is voluntary, farming is different under these cirumstances and thus has a different effect on gameplay. as i stated before, i have found significant evidence for farming having an impact on this game, i.e it creates supply and demand on the market.

Thanks goldengirl, although most of your replies have been brief, they have definately contributed to the direction of the topic.

The bottom line IS the devs make the rules. But that doesn't mean to say their philosopy of what makes a balanced game is right.

Don't forget, the devs are developing this game to please THE PLAYERS.

What game was ever developed with the developers in mind? None. Developers make games with players in mind, and should ALWAYS do what will benefit the majority of players.

I feel that farmers, grinding for a longer period of time, logically would have a higher chance of recieving purples as drops. On this basis, one could argue they put more purples into the market.

However, as for the entire amount of purples collected by farmers, and casual players, i don't have any data to conclude if either side produces more than the other.

Also, in regards to what generates more economic exchange in the market, i would argue the most valuable things are what people are aiming to buy; this can be argued on the assumption people want to buy purples because purples are usually the enhancements that will significantly improve their characters.

Although i am not fully informed on this, i am going to say purples are definately the most valuable commodity on the market, but due to the sheer number of other items on the market, without any data, i can't say what item generates more interest.

I would say IO's, and everyday items definately have a significant input.

Correct, the devs word is universal law in the game THEY develop. However, there are other games that are developed by other developers.

And this topic isn't off topic. The devs may have complete control over their game, but this does not make them correct.

@SingStar, the day having an intellectual argument with other users, some who have argued strong points, others not so strong, becomes ruining an argument, is the day freedom of speech dies.

And @Crius, i know i won't 'win' ultimately. Being correct (which i am) is enough.

Nope, they couldn't anyway, because moderators or not, i'm always here to pick apart people's arguments if the reasoning behind them is weak and flawed.

If people posit claims and justify them, using REASONABLE assumptions, not wild and unsubstantiated claims, of course i will listen.

I'm not saying people need to be a genius to converse with me; anyone can contribute, but just asserting their opinons as facts, or stating circular arguments (e.g, this is wrong because it just is) is NOT going to convince me of anything.

If someone makes a post with conclusive evidence that is representative of what is likely to happen if farming continues, if those consequences were found to be bad, and someone could prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that farming is bad, of course i will be converted.

But until that happens, i'm going to argue that farming can be an effective process that can contribute actively to the economy of a game, and is not detrimental to anyone's gaming experience on the basis it in NO way affects anyone negatively.

They of course can STILL drop purples, still trade and buy of course. What are you trying to infer i'm saying?

I did not at any point claim a game based on a player-driven economy is entirely dependant on farming. Never at one point did i claim that.

Players fit in by virtue of the fact they contribute by putting recipes and infamy into the economy, and trade with each other the same way the farmers do.

What i am saying is, farmers are still a contribution.

To ban/punish/lock farmers out or single them out from the majority of players is a malicious, even tyrannical action by NCsoft.

THE LAST thing this game needs is MORE people quitting.

Did you not read my post on the 2nd page?

This isn't a matter of opinion; the ONLY thing that is a matter of opinion here is the other's wrong definition of exploit.

Posters in this thread have offered WEAK explanations, claiming farming is an 'exploit' on the basis it wasn't intended.

Post-hoc flaws like this (claiming because one thing happens, another thing was caused by it or vice versa) do not prove a point to be true.

The point is, this thread is riddled with weak arguments that have very flawed reasoning, and people goading or mocking me, being sarcastic or rhetorical are not going to deter me from asserting the truth.

Yes, everyone may define exploit differently, i don't care what your definition is, as long as you JUSTIFY your definition, so everyone can assess the reasoning behind it.

Why? I obviously have no trouble understanding the truth. And i'm not forcing you to do anything, if you don't want to contribute to disscussion, don't.

Here i go again:

@fanservice, just because the devs say they didn't intend you to do it, does not constitute an exploit. An exploit is avulnerability in game mechanics or code that gives players an advantage over other players that negatively impacts their gameplay. Levelling does not do this.

@Delph, it doesn't matter if powerlevelling was intended, it has rooted it's place in city of villains as it has in every MMO. And once you're level 50, obviously you choose all your powers, no one remains with level 1 builds.

@kindheller, "it gives people an advantage because it shouldn't be like this' is a circular argument and you have not justified at all your claim that farming gives players an unfair advantage.

And no, my 'facts' are not assumption, that contradicts the very definition of the word. Are you trying to posit the devs DIDN'T foresee people would farm with this system? In that case, i have something else to be worried over. try again.

Farming does not damage the wider structure of the game or it's economy, because although it turns infamy and purples INTO the player driven market, it also creates demand.

Infamy farmers may buy purples from people who have successfully farmed recipes, for example.

As long as there is economic exchanges in which people are not struggling to find what they want, then there is no problem with the ingame economy.

Whether you like it or not princess, same for you shannon, the simple fact is NCsoft developed a system knowing there would be consequences of people engaging in powerlevelling.


If you don't like powerlevelling, just shut up and don't do it. Powerlevelling is NOT an exploit, due to the fact it GIVES NO ADVANTAGE (as relevant to artic's 2nd and 3rd definitions) over other players.

Powerlevelling gives no advantage over other players for the people who partake in it, it does not negatively affect their gameplay, it does not degrade the quality of gaming experience or the ingame economy.

if there is any exploits, it would be because the developers were inadequate when they were developing.

BTW, farming and grinding doesn't constitute exploiting.

This system (mission architect) is being used for users to level their characters to level 50 in the shortest amount of time possible.

This does not give any user ANY kind of advantage over other players, or create conditions that detriment other play's experience of the game.

To eliminate farmers would eliminate demand too right, so when everyone is swimming in purples unable to find people to sell them too, because everyone is all purpled out, that will be a great alternate reality right?

What crosses YOUR mind, is not really relevant. The differences between our claims is mine was based on a viewpoint that it is common knowledge harcore pvpers hold this view, and many players who like to farm hold this view. Your claim was based on your personal viewpoint alone.

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if you want more facts you could actually use your brain and read his legal complaint to the court, that link, after which you could read his entire legal complaint in a .pdf.

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Gee you're a rude [censored], -more- means something other then one sides facts. I would like to hear NC side of the story as well.

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If you read garriott's complaint, it is blatantly obvious that NCsoft are at fault. To deny his complaint as true, would be to accuse the premises on which he bases his complaint as complete lies. And yes i am rude, if you have a problem with me, close your browser. However, being rude was not my intention, my intention was instuction.

@hero 2 i don't care what wikipedia says.

Wikipedia is wrong, and i am right.


BUGS are what are unintended by developers, and usually are of no detriment to the community, quality of gameplay, or other players.

Exploits are hacks/vulnerabilities in game code that are OFTEN used by players to gain an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE over OTHER PLAYERS that DEGRADES players GAME EXPERIENCE, the COMMUNITY, the ECONOMY, or any other factor affecting a customer's enjoyment of the game.


The simple facts are these and nothing more:

1) NCsoft developed, with full knowledge in mind, tools which would allow players to gain experience, infamy and other virtual content which would affect their gameplay.

2) NCsoft have full knowledge that farming has gone on, and previous incentives/attempts to stop it have failed.

3) NCsoft acknowledge the reasonable and justifiable assumption if something CAN be farmed, it WILL be farmed, by at least an amount of players that is high enough so it would be worthy of their attention to address as a game problem.

4) NCSoft, as a technique to become successful in a game with little risk, and little effort, despite how enjoyable it may be for the customer, despite how it goes against their aim of the game, do not agree that the concept of farming should be in their game.

5) NCsoft not only developed, but TESTED this system, with full knowledge of the consequences of it's release, the full knowledge of the HIGH probability players would engage in farming, and yet they have still released the Mission Architect to the public.

6) NCsoft developed, tested and released a system they knew some players would use to farm (see above for definition) and baring in mind their philosophy which detests farming, have resultantly developed a punishment system to deal with them.

7) NCsoft have developed a punishment system which could potentially, in some cases be to the detriment of average and innocent users who do not engage in farming, and could limit the majority of player's enjoyment of the game for the sake of stopping farming, with the full knowledge it is NOT likely to be successful.

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Garriots Ultima games are responsible for getting me hooked on RPGs, however I'm not rooting for anyone until I have more facts.

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if you want more facts you could actually use your brain and read his legal complaint to the court, that link, after which you could read his entire legal complaint in a .pdf.

As far as that legal complaint goes, NCsoft is being accused of fraud, negligent misrepresentation, and breach of contract.

Servers you right NCsoft.