RavenSoul

How about you listen to the FACT many of us have said we don't want those outfits removed from the game, and instead are asking for nothing more than less of the same in the future.

In short: Stop with over-the-top melodramatic over-reacting, will you?

Oh, I get where you're coming from, I really do. I had a friend in real life who was putting together an authentic Nazi SS outfit for Haloween.

He was black. I thought it was hilarious, and my friend who berated the other over the Nacht hero didn't approve or disapprove the idea either, as I recall.

But, there are people in game who have a tacit devil-may-care attitude about what others think about them that can easily go too far. It's ok to have that attitude - I have it myself - as long as it's tempered with a bit of consideration, too.


Anyways, on-topic: Is Dark Control going to be available before this weekend, please? That was what I wanted to test out first and foremost, kinda hoping it'll be in-beta soon.

From the people I knew personally at the time, the trivilizing you mention was just a part of their feelings. More of their offense came from all the people in the first two years who kept making 5th Column knockoffs as heroes. For them, that was the hardest part to accept, and I was present for a very loud, heated argument when another friend of mine was caught with a Nacht <something> hero.

I wasn't going to grace his comments with a response, but I think I'll put in my 2inf that what I, and I think all or most of the others I'm in agreement with on this subject, want is LESS 'hoochy', not NO 'hoochy'. I agree with you here, it's a balance issue, not a complete retcon of all sexiness. But far be it from me to stand in someone's way if they wish to sound foolish

I know there are many not happy with the random factor but I personally am absolutely unable to be bothered by it. YMMV, of course, but I hope for the sake of those who hate it that they either: A - try it with an open mind, after which I'll respectfully accept whatever they think of it, OR B - they get an option to get the whole outfit set in the future somehow.

Well, you kinda /sorta miss my point though, even if only by a little. While you've added to my list of women showing only hands and or face, you've also pointed out many more of thsoe who have more skin showing than hands / face. I don't have any real problem with women showing whatever they want...

But...

There was a reason I specifically stated the overwhelming majority - to the point of being almost nauseating - show skin other than hands and or face, because it's become sadly REMARKABLE when I see someone like TwinShot added to the game who's not, shall we say, 'heroine-hoochy'. While Ms Lib' and a few others do seem tasteful in this, there are a LOT of others who just aren't.

I'm not calling for an outfit retcon, tbh. It's just something I have to ignore in comic-books LESS than I do here on CoHF, and sometimes that gets on my nerves. Particularly after the Barbarian, Gunslinger, and Magic outfits were made to the end of the scale I'd rather see LESS of. We have plenty of ways for women to show skin so it would be nice if future sets erred more towards taste than not. And after the Gunslinger 'incident' there was enough outcry to have the outfits down the road do just that, for which, as I already said here, I am ecstaticly waiting.

In closing on this, I'll repeat I'm not asking for all, or even any, NPS costumes to change. I'd just like the contingent of women who can be sexy without showing skin beyond hands and face to get better representaion. Don't believe it can be done? Bah. Rogue from 90's X-men, Catwoman from the comics and Batman Returns / Dark Knight Rises, and Black Widow from Iron Man 2 come to mind...

I'm pretty sure he did not. Then again, it's an art style I perform myself though, so I'm not one to criticize it, and I certainly wouldn't apologize for it either.

In yer Dark Astoriaz, killin yer Zerg Rushes,
~Raven

In reply to the bolded part: Ain't that the truth. Last truly GOOD jacket the women got was from the Wedding pack, which is just SAD. As far as the pants go, I think there have been a few pants options over the years, Resistance and Classic Steampunk come to mind.

...and as for the 'assets' comment:

I think in CoHF the comic book 'card' has been overplayed that says female characters are required to show skin other than face and hands. I'm drawing a blank trying to come up with one that doesn't - other than Numina and Luminary / NightStar, who literally don't have flesh to show.

Anyways, seems to me that griping about it NOW's kinda late. Not saying "don't gripe", just saying it's just throwing eggs at a train that left the station over seven years ago.

Fair enough. I look forward to doing those arcs already, so I'm glad to hear it's the end of a story line for the new DA.

WRONG. I have at least one or two Jewish friends who ranged from miffed to insulted to see fascists in the style of Nazis in the game, and the people back in '04 who were playing 'Nacht' this and 'Nacht' that were even more of a slap in the face.


Taking wing to the wild blue yonder,
~Raven

Oh hey, that's even better, Zwill, I like the Super Packs more now than I did. Great idea, perhaps that's one step that'll help win over the people who've stated they're against random awards. Looking forward to beta-testing these.

@Raven Lord

Valid point taken. I'll leave this line of thinking be for a time, and see what comes of it. Hopefully, we as players can agree that snap-judgements, such as the ones I've seen in regards to Super Packs, should be re-examined rather than held on to at all costs.

I mean, the "Why Super Packs Are A Bad Idea" thread was launched within minutes of them being announced, making this the biggest, fastest, and possibly most controversial snap judgement there's been in CoHF for a long time. I've been aware this whole time that the general sentiment had the power of a speeding locomotive, and that my asking for a moment for us to examine WHY there's been so immediate and passionate an outcry against them is roughly like me standing in front of that locomotive and holding out mhand in hopes of getting things to slow down and be more rational.

I knew this, and did it anyways, so now having done so, I'll fade out and hope I've started the ball rolling on a discussion about the WHY's of the for and against on Super Packs. Because I think it's a valid concern, and hopefully this could help all of us out in the future.

Nope, not at all. I agree with them, and you. I have no problem with this either, because as I've been saying I don't have a problem with people disliking something - that's not something I'd deny people because that'd be akin to emotional assualt. What I'm here asking people to do is look at WHY they dislike them, and to be a little more honest about that, because I feel the arguments given here apply equally to other parts of the game and yet, these weren't brought up so ferociously there. So, why are they here, when that feels to me to be hypocrisy?

THAT'S what I'm trying to understand, and possibly get people to be more open about. In the end, it's good for everyone: the customers as individuals and as a group, and for Paragon as well. We can't improve the game in an effective manner if we aren't being honest about it, and that's my main concern.

Rocket.. surgery? Hmm. Well, no, it isn't... rocket surgery... and I have heard that comment myself and understand the need for them to have it - see two parts down. What I'd like to point out is that there have always been things exclusive to one system and the only reason people here dislike THIS one is due to it being random.

Not everyone likes that, I'm well aware. But the idea that they need to have those pieces handed to them on a silver platter because they don't like the random system is preposterous since every costume set one buys is a roll of the dice on whether one will like, or use, everything in it. Hence, I feel this argument is dishonest.

I'd like to point out - again - that nobody is forced to buy these. You can freely choose NOT to, and give up an immediate hope of getting the desired costume parts. I'm not trying to say you have to buy Super Packs, I'm trying to ask you to understand that the complaints are invaildatin ghtemselves because they apply to other parts of this game that have not been complained abou t in this manner.

I get that, I really do. And I do even agree, buying a 'roll of the dice' isn't going to appeal to everyone. But I am trying to point out the Super Boosters were rolls of the dice, too, because no one knew until they bought them whether they would like, or dislike, any or all of the contents. So it seems unfair to me to hate on Super Packs just because they're the same in a way, as the Boosters were.

I'm not saying they are, directly. But, nevetheless, they are - indirectly. How? Here, I'll explain.

Say the odds are 50 / 50 you'll get what you want randomly, for a dollar. Now, you roll, and most of time you'll get what you wanted in either on, two, or three dollars. Now, if the item you want is more rare, you end up paying even more.

This is at the heart of people's arguments even if they have not directly said so, because that is WHY they dislike the random factor and want a 'sure thing'. I don't disagree with them, or this, but it's a fallacy of minor consequence here, but a fallacy nonetheless.

No, that's not it at all. Yes, I think you're right, I did mis-state myself and went overboard on generalization, but then again, one can't deny that every minute we live, something could go right, or wrong, based on many things both inside and outside our control. This, in essence, is a sort of gambling, and if one hates something that is the essence of life, then one is at odds with the essence of life, and that's what i was trying to get across.

Puttig aside the impression I get that you'd be ok with me getting hit by a bus tomorrow, I care about this because I've made it my mission in life to get people to be BETTER people. So, here I am, trying. And maybe I'm succeeding, or maybe not. But either way not trying with or without success would be to deny who I am in this regard, something tantamount to suicide.

And playing things safe in life is a gamble, too. I'm not talking about death. There's a billion other things that we risk by being alive, but that's besides the point.

The point I'm trying to make here is NOT that people should like this, but that those who dislike Super Packs need to be more honest with themselves and everyone else in the reasons they give for doing so.

I've already said, I don't care THAT people dislike them, I care WHY people dislike them, and I'm not here trying to get people TO like them, but to be honest about WHY they dislike them.

Is that so wrong? I mean, people are so dishonest with themselves and others these days, what's so awful about me trying to change that, one small step here, and one small step there. Why people are acting like I'm trying to mindjob or browbeat them into liking Super Packs, I don't understand, because I've stated mutltiple times that's not the case...

What part of my statement that I know that getting out of bed and breathing don't require money did you not understand? Also what part of my statement that I was pointing out that these things themselves are gambles, and yet you make them, did you not comprehend?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious. What didn't you get, and I'll address that.

Fine then. Nobodies twisting your arm to pay for these. It's up to you whether the costume pieces here are worth it, or not. I'm not here telling you you have to buy these packs and neither is Paragon. But yet, here you are, arguing with me as if this is some big crisis. It's not.

Why I'm here talking about this is because I'm upset that there have been statements to the effect that Super Packs are <insert complaint here> and that I think that's BS because these concerns are equally valid to almost everything Paragon has offered us before. Yet, no-one made these comments then, and I'm peeved to see it happen here when it's not a new concept at it's core.

Well, that won't stop me from trying. A man who moves mountains begins by carrying away small stones. I'm here trying to get people to realize they're being dishonest with themsleves over these Super Packs, I'm not trying to get people to like them, and you NEED to realize that.

I'm not here promoting gambling. I'm really not, you've missed the point on that over a dozen times by now, because I've said as much - many times and many different ways. What I AM here promoting is asking people to be honest with themselves when they say they dislike the Super Packs when, as I've said and explained, these arguments are invalid because they would have applied equally to the Super Booster and the Paragon Market and yet, while they've made those points there too, there's two problems with that:

A: Dead horse is dead. This is how it's worked for a long time and this is nothing new to pay money for ingame items. Indeed, all the Super Packs are is a new method, one that I find exciting but readily admit others will not find, as you have found, and as you have said.

B: The arguments here are less valid now then they ever have been before because many people have had these same problems with toher parts of the CoHF gaming experience and have NOT made these arguments against such there, which is where the dishonesty comes in: Super Packs present absolutely ZERO new problems for anyone. So griping about it isn't honest, and I THAT is why I'm upset.

If after that you still don't get all this, please just say exactly that and nothing more, and I'll drop this personal line with you. I'm still feeling like I'm talking to a wall wtih you and I have no intentions of doing so all day.

No it doesn't, but your failing to comprehend me. See next...

This is not a non sequiter, actually. I am stating for a fact that everything in life is a gamble not for comparison but to open your eyes that you gamble every minute of every day just by being alive. So if you hate gambling, you hate living.

Overly entitled, much?

No, it's not that, it's the idea of people, many of whom are wise and reasonable most of the time, being petty and close minded that upsets me.

We already agree to disagree. Like I said, I don't care THAT we disagree, I care WHY we disagree.

Sure thing. I'll break this down, then.

There are three complaints about Super Packs floating around here, all based on one aspect of the Super Packs: The Random Factor. How? Look here:

A: The random factor combined with the 'costume exclusivity' means that people will have to pay a dollar at a chance to get the costume parts they want, because they can't do so elsewhere. First off, I'd like to propose that this is BS because many people blew some serious change on getting the Celestial Set and didn't wail and moan like they have here.

So that's one part of the hypocrisy, the other is that we have had exclusive costume pieces that we had to pay money for before: The Super Boosters. Again, this is hypocrisy to complain about here and now, as we've been doing this for years. There's another part to this but I'll focaus on it in...

B: We have had Super Boosters that we pay $10 USD for or what have you for years, as I've said. We've also, for JUST as long, been paying that money and getting pieces in those sets we used once or twice, or never, or possibly even disliked. So, here again, what's going on with the Super Packs is nothing new, but now all of a sudden it's A Bad Thiung And We The Playerbase Will Not Have Such Foolishness - which is ridiculous cosdiering this aspect of buying costume sets isn't new, at all.

C: And finally, I'd like to point out that those upset about the random factor meaning they will have to spend points to get these costume pieces? Possibly this misused term of 'a lot of points' due to the random factor? Well, as I said before, how else do you think you were gonna get them? Mailing fruitbaskets to Paragon Studios? Well, that costs money, and so do Paragon Points, which is what would've been the currency to get these costume sets anyways.

So, any questions?

I'm assuming you'd be like me, and not only want invisible heads, but have it as a 'face' option, perhaps, so that Hats, Hoods, Helmets, etc, could be used with it.

Of course, the tech would scream bloody murder, so I'm not sure they could do that. But, if they could, I'd pay money for it. Sounds cool to me.

While I'm fine with the Super Packs now - then again, I was fine with them as announced at the Pummit, too - what Samuel proposes here was almost exactly the same compromise I was pondering on as people were grumbling about the 'exclusivity' of costume pieces.

As I said, I personally don't mind. Then again, I've been a casual M:tG player since it came out. So I've got a lot of experience with collecting random swag that others may not agree with. My 2 cents, is I would prefer - yes you heard me right, *prefer* - that the costume pieces from the boosters be *kept* exclusive, since to me that sounds like being able to be a VIP. Which, you have to be to get them, as I recall.

And who doesn't want to be able to display being a VIP? The people griping about the exclusive costume pieces, I guess. Doesn't make sense to me but then some people seem to need something to complain about, perhaps, I dunno. Frankly, the gripes about the exclusivity and how it'll cost them points is LUDICROUS considering that the normal method to obtain them is...

Oh right. Spending points. Sheesh. What hypocrisy.

@Raven Lord, who's fine with being the odd man out, as that's 24/7 for him anyways.

Well, a an axe-guitar would be intersting. But what about guitars as a 'weapon' for sonic sets? Not to mention the other idea I'd had as a 'weapon option' for sonic-based sets: a Bullhorn. THAT makes perfect sense to me. And would be pretty amusing to boot.

Make them an option under Power Customization, and voila, instant sonic hijinks!