Oedipus_Tex
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Posts
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Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
What I'm telling you is that "necessary to move forward" is a matter of opinion, and one not all players share. The devs aimed between your target and targets far lower than yours. Implicitly, you're not saying the devs should launch with enough content, but with enough content for you.
Yes of course its a matter of opinion. I am not able to post on anything other than my opinion, and neither are you. It is your opinion that there is enough content. It is also your opinion that the shard system used for the Alpha slot were a weaker system than the threads used for the other slots. I disagree. In my opinion, the Alpha slot was much better, because it didn't truncate the system down into 3, soon-ish to be 4, specific missions.
It's meaningless to say something like "enough content for you" because every player has to make that determination for themselves. Do you also think it is unfair of me to have a low opinion of the game that rhymes with cow because in my opinion the quest system is grindy? 12 million people disagree with me but its irrelevant because my opinion is what determines whether I play and how much. I can understand not wanting to hear my opinion, but this development team does have a history of listening to its player base. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And its so easy to say "if there's not enough for me, they shouldn't launch at all" but that voice is counterbalanced by an equal number of voices saying "launch now, period." People were begging the devs to release the Alpha slot even if there wasn't a direct way to unlock it or slot it. They were perfectly happy farming shards for everything, and their attitude is "if you want to wait for content, you wait for content: don't make the rest of us wait with you."\
That is not what I said. I said that the system itself should be designed with the limitations on resources in mind. If you cannot produce those resources, design the system in a way that is not as constrained. -
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I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. The game will never be "complete" until the servers shut down. The devs will (hopefully) always continue to add more content to the game and that's all this is, adding more content to a specific "level" range that the devs feel is lacking in content (a point I would agree with them on).
When it comes down to it the J/I/L/D slots are basically a new level range with almost no content at all (the Alpha slot is a bit different since it straddles two level ranges). The devs opted to release the new range when they had it working and had enough content to allow people to play through it. In the same way Issue 1 released the 40-50 level range but by no means all of the content that we currently have available for that range.
I'm not saying it has to be "complete." It does have to be "comfortable." An MMO will never ship with all of its eventual content available from the beginning, but it does have to ship with enough to keep systems functional.
My point is only that if you don't have the resources to build more than a few trials in the course of a year, that is a reason not to make the entire system lean on trials. So I agree with you about a new trial coming out not being a bad thing. The aside was that the system's design shouldn't be set up to rely on something that can only be delivered on such a limited schedule. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Socorro
I'm playing the same game he is - my Insps drop like Chiclets. Soloing, I almost never have to enter a fight without a small purple buffing me.
This is part of the discrepancy.
They drop liberally in general but on a team they are split among all 8 members.
For this reason there are lots of things I can blitz through solo but can't run off on my own on a team and do the same, even against the same enemy. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
See I like this. It's nice to have an expanding list of trials without feeling like we're on a treadmill running constantly just to stay in one place.
I can agree with you on this. More trials does mean less repeating of the same trial. I am still flustered about all the standing around, but it's at least somewhat better.
I am, however, rather frustrated by this system overall in that I feel it is incumbent on developers to build systems based on the resources they have available. If you don't have the resources to build the content necessary to move the system forward, the system needs to be moved forward in another way. You don't build and open Disneyland and only then start thinking about where to place the line queues. -
I would think mainly the Power Boost + bubble ability that can now let you empower the whole league at once.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Pacur
There is no way that this game can have as much trial content as there is other content out now. In six more years? Maybe. Currently? No.
Do you have any idea how many MMOs went under due to exactly this? Not that I'm suggesting CoH is likely to "go under," but this is reason #1 people want a wider system at the outset. They do not have the resources to build enough trials to support the system, and even they did, this does not solve other issues, like the lag and the amount of time speent parked waiting for the event to start. All of these are reasons why tapering the game down to just a very small subset of not-yet-developed and time consuming material was a bad idea to begin with. I can't fault them for not having the resources to build out multiple trials at once, but I certainly can for building the system in a way they can't support. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Pacur
Well, honestly, I'm getting tired of repeating the same point over and over and over again.
Well you could stop posting. -
Quote:I don't find it very convincing when someone tells one group of people to stop playing victim, then pulls out the "you think you've got it bad?--well let me tell you who the real victims here are" line. A little less melodrama with your asking other people to drop the melodrama please. As ridiculous as you think people who are unhappy look, you look ten times worse duking it out with them because you are upset that they are upset.Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Want soloable incarnate level stuff? Great. Get in line, but don't be yet another person trying to say the whole game is going to hell in a handbasket because people who haven't had much to do with their 50s for the last 7 years are having fun giving them an airing for a few months.
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I like this trial too. I have only done it one time because I have given up on chasing incarnate stuff for the most part, but the mission itself was fun.
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Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It doesn't sound like feedback to me.
It very much has the tone of being DEMANDS.
Feedback is saying "Hey, I don't really like how this works. Any chance you can look at it?"
What I'm seeing lately has the tone of "GIVE US WHAT WE WANT! GIVE US WHAT WE WANT! GIVE US WHAT WE WANT!" And it is largely the same group of people saying it.
When the same people use different words to say the same thing over and over again, it ceases to be feedback and starts to become a demand.
It very much seems to me like a lot of people making these demands are of the opinion that "listening to the players" means "do whatever the players say", and when the devs don't jump at their command it means they aren't listening.
There is nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, we can do to convince the devs to do something they don't want to do. And there is nothing we can do to make them do anything any faster than they are.
They will do things when they are damn good and ready to do them, and NO amount of "feedback" will convince them to do it once second sooner.
Which really makes all this complaining, going on across a dozen different threads, pretty much completely pointless. The devs are very well aware of what some of the players want. Continuing to complain, and being rude to anyone who dares to disagree with your complaint is not going to make it happen even one second faster.
It'll happen when it happens, is it REALLY necessary to beat the issue to death and then continue beating it long after it's decomposed? Or do you think that because it didn't happen the day you said it, it means the devs aren't listening.
If you're not interested in the issue, don't post on it. Or write that you think everything is ok. All you are doing is attacking. You are just as demanding as the people you accuse of screaming, only your message is for people to shut up.
We don'tneed whining. But we also don't need the stalwart defenders of the status quo to go into caniptions because someone doesn't like part of their favorite game. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Pacur
You see the same exact thing repeated over and over and over and over in a very short amount of time, you're going to get tired of it.
Hmm, yep.
For me personally, a "very short period of time" for a Task Force or trial would be about two weeks. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Well since I like *some* (not all) aspects of the trials others don't like, it comes down less to whether the devs ignore complaints and feedback, and more which complaints and feedback they choose to align themselves with. While there are specific detail aspects I can agree are problematic about the trials and the reward systems surrounding them, ultimately if the devs change some of the fundamental design decisions that some players are complaining about, I'll have just as much right to complain the devs aren't listening as other players do now. The devs have no way whatsoever to escape the charge that they are ignoring feedback.
I agree with you on this. Cornering them is not a good idea. I do really hope they add more ways to deal with the trial stuff though. I know that you specifically are not a fan of incarnate shards but I did personally find that system much less objectionable, particularly the Task Force portion of it. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Pacur
I really hate to say this, but it kinda sounds to me like you are creating the very problem you are trying to avoid. By rushing head-first into the content, to continue the food analogy, it would be if you went to an all-you-can-eat buffet and ate untill you couldnt anymore. End result being unable to move and swearing youa re not gona do that ever again.
I've covered this elsewhere, but this line of reasoning is flawed. It's essentially a blame shifting strategy and a way to say "If you don't enjoy the trials it's your fault for doing the trials too much." The implication is that the poster is not temperate enough, or is too greedy for the rewards. It's a puritanical kind of stance that switches out "time" and "enjoyability," appearing to deliberately misunderstand that what people want is a path that they find fun.
The structure of acquiring powers from the trials is absolutely no different than acquiring powers in any other MMO, and if it is fair game to call those MMOs "grindy," it's fair in this one too. The only difference between how power is acquired in this scenario versus others is the specificness of the missions you are required to run. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Pacur
I think you are referring to all the things people are complaining about here.
Well, you took it upon yourself to give every one of them a stern talking to. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Pacur
But not everything in the game is challenging. Challenge makes people stronger, therefore, to get to an incarnate level of power, you need an incarnate level of challenge.
Challenge? Not so much.
To become an incarnate you need the fortitude for extensive downtime while waiting for the event to begin, a strong enough net connection to make it through said event, and the stomach to repeat those action over and over.
What seperates an incarnate from a non-incarnate is not challenge or skill. It is almost entirely based on how much you want to deal with these 3 specific missions and all of the things associated with them. Some people do want "solo" missions but that does not sum up everyone. IMO the majority of complaints are from people--soloists, teamers, and non-commitals--who simply take issue with the limited scope of the system and the downsizing of elligible content. I think for many of them the issue is not specific to trials but would be apparant whether the game was whittled to soloing, bank missions, radios, the AE, street sweeping, AVs, or GMs. This is why so few of people currently posting took issue with the Alpha system but now are suddenly up in arms. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Pacur
You are right, they wont. However, the large number of posts I've seen all stated that they want a solo option, and I concede that some people want to solo. I won't repeat my reasons why I believe that it shouldn't happen for certain content.
What would you want the solo option to look like then?
I'm not speaking for Bill, but "the Alpha slot" is my answer. I loved that system and went into the incarnate content expecting it to be the model, with the trials playing the role similar to the Task Forces and the WST. That part of the incarnate system I have never had issue with.
I, personally, am not and have never been a dedicated soloist. I did enjoy being able to pick up a few shards here and there in the few moments I spent solo though. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Furio
Or, tell the avalanche to continue heading down the slope, and claim responsibility when it does just that.
Seriously. Look at the track record of the dev team, and tell me you honestly don't think there's damn good odds that this concern is already being addressed internally.
We can only act with the information we have in hand. They did react on the Lore pet issue and the game is the better for it. -
Speaking personally: I would like an addition to the system where a Notice of the Well + 5 shards could be converted to any Rare incarnate drop, and a Favor of the Well + 10 shards could be converted to Very Rare. That would solve 9/10ths of the issue I have with this system for me.
I don't hate the incarnate trials. I hate the trials as a leveling treadmill. I would feel exactly the same way if the only way to advance was soloing, bank missions, radios, contacts, giant monsters, or AVs.
I liked the Alpha slot system. I actually outfitted a character with 2 alphas instead of continue with the incarnate stuff because I liked it so much more.
None of that has anything to do with Bill's experiment. I'm only posting it because some people keep lumping everyone who has issues with the incarnate reward structure into one big pile of people who supposedly "want the rewards instantly." I have no issue with people who like the incarnate trials, because I like them myself. But I am much more keen to favor the so-called "soloists" in this debate because they are on the side of choice. -
Quote:Originally Posted by SuperOz
Your frankly insulting generalization doesn't do anything to actually talk about what people's concerns are, they trivialise them. But I suspect any response I get from you will boil down to 'well, don't you have the entitlement issue', and the point will be moot. I've said my piece regarding your statements and I intend to leave them at that.
That is kind of what "it doesn't apply to everyone" means. I disagree with your assumption that it applies to no one, obviously, or I wouldn't have written it. You're upset that I wrote something that applies to some people but not all, but say I'm "painting with a broad brush." Weird. -
Quote:Originally Posted by TonyV
The people who are happy are going to play the game without much stress or drama, the people who are perpetually miserable are going to come here and gripe.
Well, thank you for explaining why you felt the need to disrupt an otherwise civilized thread. -
If I were a hacker I'd put a 'tin ore' placeable in the no-powers room of the AE and have it grant 1 thread every 1000 clicks, then prank the community into thinking a developer put it there and it was an alternative to progress. I'd be interested to see how many posters I could get to praise this unique vision and claim anyone unwilling to partake of it was lazy or wanted the rewards to soon.
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Quote:They were thinking "it doesn't matter because recipes are tradeable."Originally Posted by TonyV
What's that? It would take years? Wow, that's outRAGEous! What were the devs thinking?
At least his was made of real straw instead of synthetics.Quote:Good luck with your next strawman I'm sure you're working on as I type. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The funny thing about the "You don't need this!" argument is that it can just as easily apply to:
1. Earning experience.
2. Earning Inf.
3. Earning powers and slots.
4. Acquiring Inventions or any kind.
5. Defeating enemies at all ever.
6. Using the chat system.
7. Playing the game to begin with.
People seem to define "need" as "Someone sitting behind you with a gun telling you to do this." or, alternately, "You will die of exposure and starvation if you don't do this." Neither is true of ANYTHING in this game. Whenever someone somewhere says he or she "needs" to do something, you should read that as "need to do something IN ORDER TO HAVE SOMETHING ELSE." No-one pays to play games against his will. We play games because we want something out of it, and it just so happens that if you want something out of the Incarnate system, you "need" grind and farm Incarnate content.
Let me turn this question around: Name one singe thing to do in-game (other than billing and EULA stuff) that you NEED to do, unlike Incarnate content that you do not. I want to hear at least one in-game activity where "need" applies in a sense that does not apply to Incarnates.
While it doesn't apply to everyone, at aleast some of the people arguing you don't "need" this are the same ones whose argument boils down to patting themselves on the back for their puritanical virtues. Basically they see themselves as a special class of "right" player with the self control to limit their exposure to the content. That this is an explicit admission of how unenjoyable actually doing the content in the volume required is adds the punchline.
Any criticism of the reward structure in their eyes is a manifestation of "laziness" or "greed" from people who just want the rewards "immediately" or "without having to work." They perceive this in other players because its how they view the content themselves; as either a test of fortitude and way to pull ahead of other players, or as a test of immunity from "greed", in which one claims all power is relative anyway and people who care for it are "power gamers." The reason for desiring the system to work this way is equal parts entitlement to have their way be the only way and a need to protect their "special" status, since they did, after all, work to get these rewards and don't want that taken away.
If you want to see this psychology at work in other MMOs, look at their crafting systems. You will find an encyclopedia's worth of justifications for the tedium those systems involve that pretty much hinge on the same arguments about "work ethic." -
I actually don't mind iTrials. I just hate the "iTrials are the center of the universe if you want to advance" part.
I was calm going into this because I never thought it would go down this way. Now that I see the lack of planning and the essentially "you can just stay low level if you don't like it, getting more powerful is not for you" attitude I am livid.
I have my fingers crossed that something will eventually be done. They've fixed other things I hated (the Lore pets being a good example). But it's still sad that the game that pretty much invented the "do as you will" style of play and came out with the awesoness that was the Alpha slot stooped to this.