Oedipus_Tex

I only picked on Ice Slick because it is the "best" of the patch powers in terms of knockdown. The relative power of each of them is like this:


This is based on Ice Slick and Earthquake ticking 5 times per second, with 8% and 7% chances of knock. This is also relatively the same as throwing balance completely out the window. But, they were warned. Maybe I can exploit this on a Mastermind before they fix it. MMs have a longer recharge on Bonfire than Controllers but thats unlikely to matter. Some people probablywon't see the issue, but this kind of makes discussions about balancing powers like Jolting Chain and the battle to get 5 target knockdown in Propel very silly in comparison. The knockdown in Bonfire triggers slightly faster than Jolting Chain can animate one time.

Note that if my calculations are right, Bonfire is better than putting two Ice Slicks or Earthquakes on top of each other.

This is assuming it actually works. I hope to know shortly.

PS I didn't post numbers for Liquefy or Oil Slick Arrow because that's just too depressing.

Just to clarify, are you saying you'd take Tactics and then underslot it so that you can eat Yellows and get the effect part time? I guess that's a solution of sorts but I can't see it being very popular. IMO if you're going to take Tactics you might as well slot it.

Small yellows by themselves only grant +7.5% according to Paragon Wiki so unless I've missed something changing there Tactics is still required unless you plan to only eat Large Yellows or stack the smaller ones. It apears to take 3 small yellows to unlock on its own. If you slot Kismet without Tactics, I think it still takes 3, because you end up with 7.5 + 7.5 + 6 = 21. Ouch.

[ADDENDUM: I wonder if there is a threshold where if you were tight on slots it would make more sense to perma the snipe but underslot it for damage, and instead use three reds to make up for it. Since the reds up the damage of all powers it would be curious to see.]


[ADDENDUM2: Just thought about super inspirations. While I'm not cynical enough to assume the power is designed this way to push players to use the cash shop, it wouldn't surprise me if some people are. IMO that's an argument against, not for, some of what I have said about putting the value out of reach. I think if it were in reach via more methods it might be fine. We may need to look out for strategies that ladder off of Tactics + super inspiration unlocking the ability.]

Indeed, why not? But this is a question for someone who said they shouldn't.

Like I've said a few times, I don't have any opinion on whether they should or shouldn't have the ability. My opinion is only about the gymnastics of hitting this specific number in a build that unlocks that ability, and missing it by 0.02% not unlocking it. This is not a debate abut Blasters versus Corruptors. Its partially a debate about the specific build a Corruptor (or Defender) has to commit to obtain the ability reliably, including the fact that Psy, Dark, and Assault Rifle don't even have an Aim type power to make the ability work.

At this point I'm convinced you're not even sure what you've said. You just seem to be adopting a position that is as oppositional and contrarian as possible.

I'm not sure who "everybody" is here, or where you're picking up imagery like folks "tearing out their hair."

I'm personally talking about the circumstances of specific builds and not rolling up a new character out of some expectation of being the "best" in the game at something. I don't care about being the "best." I do care about making decisions within the context of specific powersets that make sense based on what options are available. The basis of the concept of strategy is that build decisions are intelligible.


Emphasis mine.

IMO this is a very strange thing to say after saying the buff isn't that big. Tactics on a Corruptor and Targeting Drone on a Blaster are practically the same power for the purposes of achieving the T4 blast. One power can't be highly desirable and the other not, unless that one extra power pick in Manuevers or Assault or running out of pools makes that much of a difference. If that's the argument you want to make, I'd accept it as your opinion.

But I have no way of resolving your comment above with Corruptor and Defender builds for Assault Rifle other than to say that if Target Drone greatly benefits Blasters, Tactics greatly benefits Defenders and Corruptors. I'm not talking about rolling up an AR character just to take advantage of this because it's especially leet, I'm talking about taking advantage of it because it's the best option available when playing that set on those ATs. These are two distinct concepts. You've blurred them many times in your posts and it doesn't do service to the argument.



The image of the majority of players, casual or not, running around with a Snipe that they've bothered to take and slot for damage but don't care about using regularly or notice that it doesn't always work the same breaks suspension of disbelief for me. An argument about how bad you can possibly make a build has no bearing on what the structure should be for the average or the top. It's why, despite your contention that single target damage matters less, pretty much no one advocates that you shouldn't slot damage enhancers in the powers, which achieves exactly the same goal.

The snipe isn't a free power. It has to be picked and costs slots. If you've bothered to take it and put any slots into at all, it stands to reason that you should finish the deal.

Essentially, what you are characterizing as the kvetching of extreme min/maxers is exactly the opposite. It's concern that it is 1) possible to access T4 blasts on a Corruptor or Defender, 2) desirable in many cases and 3) the path to it takes away from the elegance of an IO system with options and build choices rather than adds to it. I don't particularly care if, in the end, they decide to make it no longer possible to achieve with Tactics on Corruptors and Defenders, because for me this is not an argument about level of power or AoE vs single target or any other sidebar raised in this thread. It's an argument about a puzzle with a solution that is both obvious and disappointing.

I both often use a laptop and play using the thumb pad instead of a mouse.

Excellent explanation.

This is the part we agree on.

The debate we're having (or at least I and a few other people are having) is about that threshold between where "smart player" stops and "expert player" or perhaps in this case "build gymnast" begins. [EDIT: To clarify, this might have been better worded as "smart player" versus "min/maxer."] Not slotting for damage at all is a "choice" but not one many people would be willing to make. Clearly there are some build choices that are definably sub-par from the perspective of game balance, unless someone is going to argue that the developers balance the game around a player with all travel powers and no slotting at all. You can argue the irrelevance of anything, but if a T4 is irrelevant I'd like to establish why that is if T3, T2 and T1 blasts are not.

In my view, when the only blockade to slotting a T4 blast is Tactics and a Kismet, passing it up is self defeating. Particularly in the case of the actual two setsI will be IOing, Dark and Psy Corruptor/Defender Blasts, that don't have another option.

I don't particularly have a dog in the race on whether or not I deserve access to such a blast. I can just assure you that if the power is worth taking (ie was worth the time to recode) and is within my grasp via a magic number, I'm going to hit that number, but not be particularly impressed with the puzzle that has been presented. Some people think putting Tactics in the path of T4is enough to stop people from chasing it, but it's really not that different to me than if the T3 power in Leadership was a high powered T4 blast that you needed 2 prereqs to get. It's a puzzle with an obvious solution like "put damage enhancements in powers," just with a slightly more convoluted path.

There are good puzzles and not so good puzzles and what some of us have said is in the case the puzzle has a somewhat obvious solution that is simultaneously slightly irritating. Hence, comparisons to Stamina.

Then there shouldn't be an objection to just giving the benefit all of the time or none of the time, because it isn't very good. In fact, "irrelevant." Which raises the question of why even spend any time coding it, and not just leave snipes alone. The argument of irrelevance is self-immolating. It has to matter someone or there would be no reason to change it, or defend change as vigorously as you have here.

I agree with most of this. Especially changing the recharge on Mass Confusion.

I would consider allowing Confusion to count for Containment (it does for the psuedo-Containment in Hybrid incarnate).

That would leave Mind without an immobilize for the damage but a very competitive power in Mass Confusion.

Mind Control on Dominators is good but at least in my personal opinion not substantially better than other Dominator sets. It still takes a relative eternity for powers to recharge and Terrorize without Immobilize often makes enemies run off. In incarnate content specifically, I often found myself facing mobs with no AoE ready for them and forced to use Terrify, which allows them to counter with an attack and has no debuff (compare with Dark, which has both a -ToHit buff and does not allow a counter).

It should be noted that I am a particular fan of Mass Hypnosis though... on Corruptors in their Psi APP.

At that point you might as well just make the snipe become a T4 blast for everyone regardless of ToHit. Which I would be fine with. I'd also be fine with the reverse, just putting the numbers outside of reach with Tactics so no one gets it perma. Whatever they want to do.

But setting it up so a T4 blast is locked behind hitting a magic number that isn't particularly hard to hit means most everyone is going to distort their builds just enough to hit it. That's not choice except in the sense that you have the choice of whether to build intelligently.

There is a new statement that just entered this thread recently that suggests maybe it won't be that bad because the power won't hit that hard, which really just kind of raises the question: if it doesn't hit that hard why would anyone take the Snipe at all, especially if it was intended that you only get that not very good damage boost only part of the time? So we have to believe that the snipe does some level of damage over and above what the set is currently capable of, and skipping that in favor of something else is functionally not very different than skipping a key power in any other set. You certainly can skip your T3 in the current system, but doing so is silly except for making arguments that everything is ultimately a "choice" and no power is "required."

Understood and point taken.

If it goes live as is, I'll just continue my trend of avoiding Blasters and treat the snipe like a new T4 Blast for Corruptors.

I mean, my Dark and Psy Corruptors don't even have Aim as a choice, so it's not like there is another option. And since neither set really has a T3 blast to speak of, getting what is essentially a T4 is mana from heaven, and minor build gymnastics are as close to a requirement as you can get. I assume both blasts will even have a range of range of 175 ft. But I guess to some people, that's "optional." I guess it is, in the sense that you have the "option" of spending money to make an extremely sub-par build that doesn't take advantage of what's on offer, but like I said earlier, it's impossible to counter the argument that something is balanced because some people make self-defeating build decisions.

I can see how you might think that is what I was saying, but it's not related to my point.

Unviable for me is having the power available but not taking it. Before KB IOs were available, it couldn't be unviable because you had no option to take them. Now that they are available, not taking them in a build is just self-defeating. And one kind of argument that's impossible for me (or anyone) to win is one against an infinitely self-defeating player; he or she can invalidate any power evaluation or build choice. (I'm not say you are K fall intothat category, just in the abstract.)

You are also not, at any time, "required" to take your T3 Blast. You were not, at any time, "required" to take Stamina. You are not, at any time "required" to slot knockback protection IOs.

But not doing so is not really viable based on what the set offers. You cannot compare how the set is now to how it will be and say (paraphrasing) "Well you were fine with your damage then, you should be fine with it now." That is not how powerset buffs work. People are going to actually use these powers.

In the end, you have the "option" to skip a power that does significant additional damage, which is hardly an option at all. The argument that is always possible for someone to build in a way that is self-defeating does nothing for the disagreement over the path to performance being tortured.

Actually Tactics costs 0.39 endurance/sec versus 0.31 in Targeting Drone. The difference isn't very extreme.


A change to snipes is relevant to everyone affected. This isn't me griping that Defenders and Corruptors get something Blasters don't (at least, not only that). It's also about how this will affect my Corruptors and Defenders. I will need to take Tactics now for the same reason I used to need to take Stamina. It's not "optional" except in a very limited sense.

All of this is why if the change is great for Targeting Drone, it's also great for Tactics. If the change is not that great, then Devices isn't that great and neither is the change to snipes itself, which makes me question why we even need this hurdle to acquire fast sniping. If it doesn't have that much impact, why require hitting magic numbers to use it?

Ultimately, I don't care if in the end they decide to either move the 22% mark out of Corruptor reach, or just make it so everyone always gets fast-snipe no matter their to-hit, because the ending level of power is not my actual concern. My issue is that a 22% requirement for fast-snipe creates build incentives that are, for lack of a better term, "perverse." The system just does not work for me. It doesn't make making builds more interesting or add justifiable complexity. It's just a target number that is very easy to hit and in most cases self-defeating not to chase.

I agree with most of your criticisms and also agree that different ranking systems are likely to produce different results. Illusion does do pretty good damage. I do think the AoE immobilizes do scary levels of damage as well, which played into my estimates.

Ever since Dark Control, Mind has been a bust for me. If you remember my arguments from a while back, I used to say with Mind you're basically trading away Immob to gain Fear... I now feel that was a valid statement before Dark Control and incarnate procs that compete with sleep. Hypnosis getting canceled by the incarnate damage procs just really eliminated the set for me as a contender. It's a bit less drastic as you level up, but AoE blasts come earlier now and with no good source of Containment Mind feels really far behind.

Kyriani usually has some pretty valid points in these discussions and I think that's the case here as well. I disagree with her (him?) on this topic but I at least see her POV, even if I don't agree with it.

With all due respect, something here just doesn't add up for me.

Blaster Devices granting perma-fast Snipe is being promoted as a big advantage. But Tactics gives the same advantage to a Corruptor or Defender. It's practically the same power, except Tactics affects the whole team.

So is this change big or is it not? If it's a big advantage to Devices it's a big advantage to Tactics. If it's not, it's not.

If it's not that essential or effective then why...
1) ...is it being advertised as a major buff for Devices? Is it really effective or is it not? Because if it is really effective for Devices, it is really effective for Tactics. There is no 2 ways to argue with that.
2) ...do we need a "magic number" at all? If it's not that great, why set it up this way?

In the end I would be just as happy with no buff to Corruptors or moving the target value so it's not achievable with Tactics as I would with just having the Snipe always be instant regardless of your ToHit value. I don't particularly care which way they go with it as long as it's not set up like this.


EDIT: I want to add that I have no particular beef with you Adeon, or anyone else in this thread. In fact, I enjoy reading your posts. Even though we disagree on this particular issue, I hope I can retain some of your respect. I really like some of your ideas for Defenders and Corruptors.