New Dawn

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Whoops just tested it tonight...Invis DOES block Invince-voke.

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...Haven't I been saying that for months?

Sheesh. Men.

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I have never tested it because i simply have never needed to disprove it.

Tanker auras from what i can gather

Chilling embrace - taunt autohit
Mudpots taunt - autohit(small window of no taunt duration)
Invincible taunt - autohit
Blazing aura - gauntlet(small window of no gauntlet duration)

You can not steal aggro from a taunted foe without taunt, some foes can be unaffected by taunt for a duration and taunt duration lasts less and less longer the higher the level of foe you face. To get aggro from a tanker the foe has to become no longer taunted. Gauntlet apparently scales with the size of the amount of damage in the attack and is extremely short in duration (like a couple of seconds but seems to me secondary effects could elongate this) its almost more of "a turn around and hit me instead power".

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(what are you slotting in taunt to need 6 slots btw?).

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For an ice tanker? thats overki....no wait its taunt there is no overkill

Now I would take some slotting from bigboys builds to narrow things down and go look at what the guides have to offer too.

wow couldnt of said it better myself but dont let people get you into more doodoo than you need by come running back to you with pulls you werent prepared for.

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Leadership would realy nulify my endurance for sure

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That is a slotting issue

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With just the few toggle i have on my tanker, i still run out of end easily. Due -dmg -recharge your powers are mostly slotted to fill that up, hardly no space left for any end-reds. Any more toggle and i wont last a minute for my endurance.

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Yeah as a tanker dps isnt my main issue just as dps isnt my main issue on my defender. Gauntlet is a no need to have power with a fast recharge, no end consuming taunt and an aura.

Power choice wise its good, taunt you cant get at lvl 8 and obviously the slotting needs an effort.

Well maybe things would be better if ya can buy schedule B DO's sooner so you get some marked improvement in the shields as opposed next to none buying TO's.

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Also, Stamina at 20 isn't that much of a golden rule if you want to primarly tank - at least not in all builds. Of course it will be useful when you can fit it in, but given that you need, when tanking for a team, to attack very little your End usage doesn't need to be any more than running the necessary subset of your toggles - Taunt being a Zero End cost power (another reason why it's far better than relying on Gauntlet...). There is, for instance, no way on Earth I'd put Ice Patch off until 22 to allow for picking Stamina at 20.

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I got icepatch so i can sit and rest . That is right though team tankers can actually put it off a couple of levels and if you have consume then a quite a few more or perhaps never.

On the one hand a guidebook could spell things out for people and on the other it could take the fun of learning from the game.

If those masterminds turn out to be superly uberly hard to kill with the bodyguard thing i'd want my schedule B enhancement slots moved to schedule A and if not then perhaps pre lvl 15 schedule B DO's should be available and cheap.

Last thing i want is my tanker invised, i am playing a tanker for crying out loud and i want to be sure its me seen first. I may taunt some and simply rely on being noticed to the rest to get the pull plus its a pain in the butt trying to see exactly where you are in a herd.

I would like to know if the stealth component affects the taunt component as i have been told it does and i may of even read it somewhere.

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My little lvl16 inv/axe tanker goes alone most of the time, evading the stress of people blaming the tanker for doing a lousy job. My resist is lousy, my defence is lousy, i will shine once i am SO-slotted with most armors running.

So first it were defenders doing a lousy job (hello offenders), then it was too many scrankers, recently the blappers and aoe-fire boys, now its tank-o-tankers time?

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i am pretty cut-throat, people complain about tankers not holding aggro, i complain about people not helping me to consolidate it, its always a "team effort" to get the right balance.
I refuse to waste my time with people who dont make an effort to help eachother. As an invuln the best you can do at lvl 16 is taunt. The fact you cant get invincible until 18 perhaps means that tankers arent on paper really expected to tank until then really.
There are too many "i must look after myself" builds "cos no one else will" that are about in PuGs and it just persuades other people to take the same route. Teams can so easily be made up of people with no means to help or save eachother efficiently leaving someone bound to hit the deck.
There are many people that may say its you that sucks as a tanker, without looking at your level, your build, how you need to be playing or how anyother of the members of the team thats meant to or could be adequately supporting you.
One of my tankers has died because someone in their "wisdom" killed one anchor first and knocked the other anchor out of my herd facing levels where i cant afford to see that happen (it was tight to survive as it is) and yet its my tanker thats squishie and my fault i died and lost aggro.
I dont expect in the name of equality to not rely on the team for some cooperation and support and i even advise people how to play their toons for the sake of smoother mission running. People who dont like it can find another tanker. Its a good idea to know about other powersets and look at other peoples builds and level and get an idea of what is going wrong or what could go wrong as other people maybe oblivious to what they are causing to happen to the team.
Theres alot of people who dont like to be told how to play their toon who dont know how to play their toon although they think they might. I sometimes get over these people by saying "ok on this group but dont use that power",(*do the group with less problems*)"see the difference?"

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Leadership would realy nulify my endurance for sure

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That is a slotting issue

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It isn't as good as Blazing Aura from Fire but is better than Mud Pots.

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Not as good for DoT on fiery aura and not as good for the secondary effects of mudpots but then most icetanks would have chilling embrace anyway. Just clarifying cos its bad enough i misread my own posts

i dunno it says exalted "legendary paragon allstars" thats a union sg, you havent used any insps at all, you have raziel in arena chat thats definately union in that case. I am guessing they are perhaps all far below lvl 50 except Exalted especially with the comment made about the brawl almost killing one of them.

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I think the problem most Tanks have nowadays is keeping Aggro in PVE, it seems like it's pretty much impossible for them. I'd go as far as to say that players have adjusted to this and don't really rely on tanks for aggro management anymore(controllers mostly now). Good old Statesman doesn't want you tanking anything bigger than 3 mobs I guess.

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Poor aggro management is down to bad teams or a bad tank, yes "bad". A team either allows a willing tanker to herd and keep control or the tankers build and playstyle doesnt.
Tankers should only aggro what they can keep nowadays, herding up 4 groups only able to taunt one say, most likely ends up planking the team then the tanker = planker.

Statesmans method of tanking whilst i dont like losing any aggro or passing it onto the team but any aggro lost is what single target control powers and scrappers can be used for imo although i dont like the idea of letting any bosses or lieutenents go pick on a squishie. Whilst all aoes can be unleashed on the main bulk of the herd.

That is true, but i myself lay so many so quickly some are bound to hit. They have their own tohit so must pass that first to even go off and then once they go off they still can miss unless they pass the accuracy check i believe. My trip mines are 1 acc, 3 dam 2 rechg plus i have hasten, i know some people are 3 dam 3 rechg. To my mind often dps wise a rechg is equal to a dam so no 1 way of slotting is always a win win.

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Recall Friend is for the infamous Auto Turret, but I'm taking it at 35 as not to intefere with Epics...

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I pull past my turret, recall friend is good to place it so you dont get stunned etc the moment you lay it when it gets attacked, it doesnt last long enough to keep moving around for me.

I dont know how you could possibly be missing +3's almost all of the time I really dont there must be more to it than your level of accuracy, your accuracy can be debuffed against certain foes and trip mines can fail to go off because either the tohit check has missed or you are too far away. I must admit "my cant afford to miss powers" like cryo freeze ray and sleep grenade do get extra accuracy slots despite my blaster comparatively rarely ever missing.

Edited for poor editing 3 attempts lol (distracted)

with targetting drone (not worth more than 2 end reduxes imo and cloaking device not worth more than one once i say what follows) you only need 1 accuracy in each attack, now if your worried about being detoggled and feel more comfortable with 2 accs atleast take the extra acc out of the trip mine and put a recharge in and lay more mines. The second acc i would think about working out whether you want to change it to a recharge or endurance, will you be exemping prestamina? if so then make it an endurance slot, is it a fast enough recharging bread and butter attack then sure make it an endurance slot. Thats all i can say, your powerchoices either effect your playstyle or are effected by it. You took recall friend and not tp foe so it doesnt look as pvp intended as it could be to me.

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So the tankers i have seen (including mine but not my invuln as i was new then) herding up and holding aggro as of lvl 6 were completely imaginary...ok.

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No doubt you have the chance to do so, but you HAVE to be experienced and MUST have a proper team support, even with knowledge on how to tank if the team isn't workin perfectly towards keeping you alive you won't survive 10 seconds.

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agreed but please read what i actually said again

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so the tankers i have seen (including mine but not my invuln as i was new then) herding up and holding aggro as of lvl 6 were completely imaginary...ok.

It takes knowledge, team coordination (communication and cooperation)

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In a PuG as a new player you can't possibly hope to grab aggro and act as a tank at level 6. Fact.

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When you dont have much knowledge what could you do with?

A guide. My whole point.

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You said that you've seen tankers getting mezzed at lvl 41 and you hope they could tank at lvl 6?

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That tanker didnt have unyielding at lvl 41 thats my whole point. Why even take armours if your going to be the most easily detoggled person in the team? He must either lack knowledge about his build or messed his respec. I have seen lvl 48 tankers with no dull pain, no dull pain omg that does go towards having limitations but thats more easily explained away as a concept build.

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Before SOs as a tank you need complete team support to tank even for a 3-4 man team, because if you try to tank and the team isn't helping or everyone is doin feck all you'll be just another stain on the floor.

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and most likely most people would say "these guys aint worth tanking for" - quit team.

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You can indeed start tanking soon, but with other experienced player in your team, that know what their powers do, know how you play, know what 'tanking' is like and what to do if you try to.

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Some PuGs pre 20's are cooperative .I've said I've estimated about 50% from my experience. Watching a tanker go right ahead and tank at lvl 6 the frostfire mission "a bit" like it was a lvl 50 mission is to some people a pleasure to watch and great for them to be a part of.

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In a PuG where you see Defenders with 4 blasts and 3 pool attacks, controllers with all the pool powers they can pick and when everyone thinks that Defender = H3410rZ how can you possibly hope to tank and survive?

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Now there you cant and believe me I know lol, I know, I know. I have only stayed on one team despite not being the type of people i prefer to team with or them having the type of builds i'd hope for. Where the the empath powers only included heal aura and resurrect (sick-minded ).

I have said a guide that people can buy from the shop and learn from could make a difference. Some of the problems can be ironed out by making a balanced team for yourself, dont look for one, make one, kick the one making life hard for everyone by in mission griefing, dont do futile recoveries, tell people to fallback so mobs reset and save the hospital run. Then tank on your terms.

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Sure you can tank at Lv6, but you sure as hell can't do it without supporting buffs and debuffs. Personally, I really don't like having to rely on the rest of my team to keep me alive, especially in PuGs and *especially* at lower levels.

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PuGs at lower levels can be especially untrustworthy through the way they play and how they build. Thats quite probably why people who arent new to the game and have 3 * 50's who get the whole tanking thing yet still dont look to start tanking asap and leave it till they get DO's or SO's. They find with no doubt in my mind that damage is king for them and get more secondaries over taunt and aura especially for when they have to solo.

I have a seen lvl 12 tank with an already messed up build (no heal no status protection) in teams expected to go in first and do so, they dont do well and then say "you cant tank at low level".

If i cant trust a team to cooperate, to not make pulls i am not prepared for (i like to pull especially to certain map areas), or not cause in mission greifing by knocking foes into the next group (so i often herd away to be sure now), basically if they dont help me to help them they are not a team worth my time as thats what i look for out of the game - teamwork. I'll go play with another team, failing that another toon.

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Salt and wounds, as long as players persist with the viewpoint of 'tanks are rubbish coz it aint i4' they i'm going to continue to point out that its not true anymore.


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I think you don't understand what we're saying...
Spad is saying that _now_ starting a tank and being able to properly tank(get the aggro first and keep it)it's not possible till you're completely SO'd up.
We're not saying'We want I3 power levels back.' it's more like 'We want to have an effective AT off the box like any other AT', because any other AT can do his job pretty much off the box, they all become more powerful in the late game but everyone can start doin his job right away: Blasters can already damge stuff more than anyone else, scrapper can damage stuff and are tougher than any other AT bar tankers, defenders can use buffs/debuffs and blast, controllers can control and buff/debuff while tankers start as low-damage tough scrappers and they're able to _tank_ in the mid-20s, while every other ATs becomes ace at his job with SOs a Tanker becomes a Tanker worth the name.

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So the tankers i have seen (including mine but not my invuln as i was new then) herding up and holding aggro as of lvl 6 were completely imaginary...ok.

It takes knowledge, team coordination (communication and cooperation) NO DEBT at lvl 6 hell yeah take risks!. If the tanker is the only one with the aggro the rest of the team can give the tanker back up insps. The tanker only has to prove themself and ask.

No Guidebook.This i see is the main problem.

I dont see a guidebook for the new person to buy along with the game from the shop. That i see as the main problem and you get PuG teams being less effective than they can actually be, even ones outstanding player mates could be as less effective as they could actually be. Some people choose to be more soloable than team orientated.

There is a lvl 47 tanker out there 4 slotting acrobatics for endurance and he swears by it. I have seen a lvl 41 tanker with his hands over his ears because he is mezzed. Does anyone know how the people they play with slot etc? So many people dont look to the forum for help and there is no "complete guide". This is the problem. In the early stages often builds are never right and the best playstyle isnt there because people are new. New people are simply new and noobs are constantly careless or uncooperative.

Tankers are now even more reliant on other peoples builds and playstyle being good and teams being more balanced. A half decent guide can go along way on helping everyone build well and play well. For now as most people may do i find people i play best with and continue to team with them.

On an even level balanced team (1 of each AT) with everyone taking their primaries asap and correctly slotting, plus proper teamwork a tanker has a great chance of doing the job.

I doubt a complete guide can ever be made. If we want to make the most of the teams we got we simply have to ask people to communicate, cooperate, learn from eachother, do our best not to mess things up for eachother and learn from mistakes. I dont doubt that a half decent guide could go along way to putting things right.

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Catch-22, if I have leadership, I need stamina, and I can't afford 6 picks. I like my blasts too much.

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Would you? My Empath runs all three Leadership toggles and doesn't have Stamina. However, I don't blast, so I don't know how well endurance would stand up with that much going.

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Yeah its when you start blasting along with buffs/debuffs and heals as well as running leadership toggles endurance becomes an issue.

After i saw the first line of your post i thought "huh! did i write a post saying she was no good in pvp?" If anything i am ten times more likely to say "i am no good in pvp".
I am more a suits me pve build atm because she is levelling up still, if anything i'd be one of those people who level up, finish game content (badge collector) then respec in a suits me pvp build. It is good to get ya input on powers i havent tried yet. The only pvp i can see me doing atm is in base raids and i am not quite built for that. I must say i am torn between going completely sonic/sonic or having patron powers thats how much i do like the sets.

yeah not possible anymore but even my herobuilder has certain secondaries updated so that taunt is lvl 10 but not on others. Tsoo sorcerors, storm shamans, spectral daemons blah blah could make your blazing aura completely miss and the rest of the team will get aggro for sure (well unless you can taunt fast enough) with that little accuracy in early levels.
Consume rocks id get that in early which slotted well 2 acc 1 end mod to start off can help you put of stamina till a bit later and get acrobatics in asap at 20. being knocked about unable to use healing flames aint funny.
The 2 extra def buffs in combat jump do so little almost every other power is probably better off with extra slotting imo.
Burn makes enemies run away from you, as a herder i am like well bugger that.
I take hasten in earlier to get my consume more frequent.
3 end mods in consume is probably overkill and yes you may miss, i have 2 acc, 1 end mod and 3 rechg using it when high numbers in the spawn still exist. I'm amazed at what 1 end mod can do but i may go 2 later if i see a point where i aint so amazed.
The EPS in your attacks are higher than your toggles so if you can fit extra end slots in i'd put them there i doubt ill have more than 1 end redux in my primaries as i'll choose to do more damage in a shorter space of time and save endurance that way.
Healing flames would definately come before combat jumping as when you run into mobs its most likely the first thing you will need.
I know its a respec to you but thats my thoughts for any reader.

Some people dont have their fun in tanking without having that god mode or gaining xp is slower and more tedious for them without it and some people dont whinge because they are simply the other way around.

One of my fave tanker friends dont tank now cos its now boring to him despite him being a very good class tanker imo.

People who say people cant tank now must have a very different look on the game to me.

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I was going to write a guide for tanking but while doing research I found this...

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#2925504

OK it might be a little out of date but it more or less sums up everything I was going to say. Though I may still write a mini guide on tactics since new tanks don't seam to know how to do simple things like corner pull.

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I like that guide, its a really nice guide.