NancY

Maybe because Empathy is a primary and Pain Dom is a secondary?

Plus, everyone knows the devs hate villains so their powers suck!

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Sure you can get xp and some neat-o tickets, but then you have a nice shiney new 50 and its time to slot it up. Oh wait, you have no money, and no IO's... I know head to WW/BM.... Wow prices are high yo..... I know lets farm MA for monies!!!..... lame lame lame.

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I doubt that matters to the people that already have 20 50s that they leveled up the old fashioned way.

Meh, I don't care. Let them farm. I gave up on the market months ago. I just find it ironic that so many people are bent out of shape over others getting "easy" levels but [censored] and whined that costume recipes were "too hard" to get so the drop rate was increased to the point that they're also "easy" to get.

I'll be there before 8 for a VG invite, playing an Ice/Storm Corr named Helley Winters.

Crap. I made an ice/storm corr and I didn't want to stop playing her. I even turned off XP to do a few more missions. For the love of God, why can't I ever just pick ONE?!

Aw, bye.

I made a VEAT but I'm not sure I'm going to like it, so I also made a dark/storm corr. I'm going to try both out on another server and decide by Wed.

I'm not playing WoW. I'm not playing anything. I've been too busy. Things are lightening up though, and I'm debating joining Pod Six.

I'm pretty sure I can take back my Wednesday nights, it's just that I haven't played or followed the game in so long I don't know what to make. Are VEATs any good?

And as for the April 21st Wednesday comment, I wasn't sure if it was an honest mistake, or something more sinister.

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How long are we looking at for a start date? In two weeks (not sure where everyone is at with V)? That's what I figured, but I wanted to know so I could keep that SGmate apprised.

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Let's say 4/21 for now. It could easily slip one more week, however.

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I'm confused. On what calendar is April 21st a Wednesday?

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viruses, malware or spyware

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Just adware.

It has to do with being spoiled and/or cheap.

I was a proponent of boxed expansions from day one. This stupid everything is free now we can't charge for it model got you real ads.

I can't wait to see where it goes next.

I can quote it, when you get to that spot correct my mistakes:

Posi: "The IP address is used to, uh, you know, for regional uh, advertising so we don't give you European ads when you're in America."

As I said, we already have separate servers from EU. Why the need for IP addresses?

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that they zones that have no billboards, or few of them, will be getting billboards and ads too. Source:The radio interview. So the first new things that will be added to the game is more advertisement space. Good use of the extra revenue. lol

That was you in the general sense. And I didn't say all of you. I think the ones I'm speaking of know who they are.

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They did mention regional ads - but so far only in the context that Europe will have their own set.

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Well, I don't get that. Why do they need to know your IP address when the NA and the EU servers have different NCSoft servers? Posi flat out said it's so they know what country's ads to send to you but I say that's not the whole story.

And yes, you have to actually have the ad on your screen for it to count. So all the people saying "It's great because it'll help the game financially, but I'm opting out, thanks" are not revenue producing players. So...what then? You'll have ads but no money coming in? Or very little money from the few that do opt in? How is that helping the game and where will it go from there?

You're right, I won't be here. I guess I shouldn't care what happens to any of you, even the decent people. Good luck.

No. I heard the interview, which apparently many of you haven't. It's not even lrn2read, it's lrn2hear. You all deserve what you get.

Me, yeah, I'm out after my last 3 hour session in the once a week SG I belong to. My account is paid to August though, fan that I was I always bought a year in advance. On both accounts. So technically, I can post till August but why bother?

So many of you are just mindless sheep there's no way to reach you and have you question things for your own good. Most of you don't even know how this is going to work, because you didn't listen to the interview. But keep putting your assumptions out there, that's the way sheep like it.

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NC^2 has already stated that there is no second proccess and that all ads are controlled by them which means it comes from their servers. If any data is sent off to Double Fusion it'll be datamined from zone loads counting how many times adID X was requested. If you opt-out the client shouldn't be requesting the adIDs since it's not going to display them. What isn't likely to be gathered for data is if you actually see the ad on your screen, just that if you don't opt-out that you loaded a zone and which adIDs were requested at the time.

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No, here's where people assume they're saying one thing when they are saying something else. By "they" I mean the devs. They said they have control over what ads you will see; meaning if they don't want a WoW ad it ain't getting in. They have the right to refuse, and approve ads.

They did NOT say it's their servers. I listened to the interview with Positron and Brian Clayton, who is the NCsoft NorCal Studio Manager and Executive Producer. They said it's all client side and comes off Double Fusion's servers. Of course, Double Fusion can only send you ads that were approved by NCSoft, but the ads themselves aren't coming from NCSoft.

I Googled the Privacy Policy by Double Fusion and could only find something from 2006, but that policy said they can use cookies or beacons. That while some places considered your IP address to be "personal information" that by clicking the agree button you were in essence allowing them to collect your IP address therefore it's not considered private and I guess not protected by that law.

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These are not web-based images so there's no tracking cookies or web beacons.

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While I don't personally know how it works, as I said above thier PP said they can use them. However, they have to be using something in order to be able to tell if you're actually seeing the ad or not. Listen to that interview. The DJ asked if you had low game resolution because your machine can't handle it will the ads be blurry? The answer was yes. They asked if those ads would count toward being viewed. The answer was NO, and therefore wouldn't get any revenue for them.

How are they going to know if you've actually SEEN the ad if not through some means that many players might take issue with?


I guess this is a case of let the buyer beware. If it turns out to be more than you thought it's your (collective you & your) own fault.

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O.O Did any of you read that? How could you have and not question some things?

Such as:
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We're working with Double Fusion and providing them data on what our customers are interested in.

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/severtoungeincheek

Are they going to poll you, or spy on you? How are they going to know what you're interested in?

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They will spy on you. Day and night. They will add spyware to your browser and watch you with your own USB camera. And Also bug your phones and install a nanny cam in your house.

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I guess fantasy and high fantasy have something going for them. There's no "realistic" way to incorporate ads into those games. Thank God.

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Yeah, I'm going to be moving to Dungeon Runner.

Oh wait...

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Into. Like this game. WoW isn't going to put in billboards. Dungeon Runners has, or will have, ads around the screen. Like web banners. And splash screen ads. Free to play crap with ads is not an MMORPG. But I'm sure you'll see that advertised in CoX.

And I don't have a camera, USB or otherwise.

Never heard of tracking cookies, or spyware? Where have you been?

They'll get players to turn on ads by indirectly laying on the guilt. Few to no viewers of ads, you know - those that opt out, mean less or no revenue from advertisers. Read the press releases, listen to the radio interview. They don't make money from it if you don't see it. End of story.

I have never seen players asking for in game ads. Quite the opposite. It may have been "brought up" but in the context of, "I hope you don't put in game ads in." I've never seen one interview or press release where players were informed that NCSoft was being hounded by companies like this.

Jeez, you don't get it, do you? The buck stops with NCSoft. Not Cryptic, not the new dev team. Maybe Jack fought them on this, ever think of that? Now that it's NCSoft's baby, they can do whatever they want. And I'm sure they will in the end.

And my point about them -possibly- doubling the players base was WHY DID THEY NOT TRY TO DO THAT BEFORE? Why is it taking in game ads to make them want to get more players? That's because more players = primo extra good money. Not only with the subscription fees, but with the possible ad money. But when players kept saying they needed boxes on store shelves, needed new blood, they did nothing? That's messed up.

It is NOT a source of revenue if players don't view it. They will be counting heads. I'm sure that info will get sent right to Double Fusion because they aren't going to take NCSoft's word for it.

The ads will be all client side, served by Double Fusion's servers. You won't even necessarily see the same ads, and an ad you saw before entering a mission can be different when you exit the mission. Posi said they use your IP address so they don't give you European ads if you live in America...but I thought we had separate servers? I'm thinking they'll stream you ads for your exact location, which is no better, imo, than web sites that track me and stream in ads "just for me."

Educate yourselves, people.




edited because I forgot something

The only ads in the beta will be player made, (and maybe NCNC ads - not sure on that) They said as much in that radio interview. They have no advertisers at the moment, but to test it they'll put up player made art.

That art won't be live though, by the time it goes live they should have advertisers and a small percentage will be fan stuff.

They also said the only games they'd advertise are NCSoft's. So expect to see those.

O.O Did any of you read that? How could you have and not question some things?

Such as:
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We're working with Double Fusion and providing them data on what our customers are interested in.

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Are they going to poll you, or spy on you? How are they going to know what you're interested in?

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IGN: What percentage of players have to opt in for this to be a profitable deal for you guys?

It comes down to how many people are seeing the ads. If the placements we currently have in the game are well placed, even a small percentage can do a lot for the development team.

The thing about opt-in and opt-out is that if we've done something that's not working for the customer and people are opting out, we can take that feedback and see what we can do to make the ads work for our community. If players opt out and decide they don't want to participate at this level, we're going to work as hard as we can to make it something that does work for them.

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If enough people don't opt-in it won't be profitable for them. No profits means no extra money for extra game development. They are going to do everything they can to get people to see, or want to see those ads.

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We've been thinking about advertising for a very long time. Ever since we launched City of Heroes, the press has asked us why we aren't using real ads, and the community has asked us why we aren't using real ads.


City of Heroes has been courted for a very long time by a number of advertisers and we're excited to find the right partnership with Double Fusion.

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They had always planned this, they tested the reaction when they mentioned it the first time. I think most people weren't for it back then. But tell me....WHAT players have been asking for this? WHAT press has been asking them why they don't have it? How come WE never saw these questions in all the press releases, interviews, and forum threads? Because it's bull?

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IGN: Is there any chance for interactivity with these ads? Are they tracked relative to specific players?

Brian Clayton: Initially, we're working with the current fictitious billboard which are static placements. We're certainly going to look at how this is received by customers and where the advertising climate is going. Right now, there's a great business in place for static ads and so we're going to start with that. We're definitely keeping opportunities open but that's all based on reception by the players and what that's going to allow us to do from a development perspective to grow the brand.

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Question avoided. More hinted at. Read this again without thinking about how much it's not costing you.

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The CPM amount that advertisers are willing to pay is still hopping around a little bit so that makes it difficult to accurately predict what percentage of our users need to be opted-in order for this to be worth it.

Obviously you have the size of our game community itself. If we double our game community and 50% are opted in, those are the same amount of eyeballs if 100% of our current community is opted in.

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So they don't know how much money, if any, this will make. It depends on how many people view the ads. 95% of the players opting out is NOT going to make extra revenue to better the game. It's all RP spin. And what, they're suddenly looking at doubling the player base so that if half the players (the amount they now have) look at the ads it's a success? Why did they not try to double the player base before ads? HOW are they planning to double the player base? I don't know why players are not questioning this.

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IGN: No one's really made this work.

Brian Clayton: I don't know that anybody has done this right but there's probably not a better MMO out there for in-game advertising because of the genre and setting. If there was ever a natural fit for in-game advertising in the MMO space, it's definitely City of Heroes. I know the advertisers think so too because they've been knocking on our doors since before we shipped.

Ross Borden: We're going to give it a try.

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Wow, just wow. They really care about the player.

I guess fantasy and high fantasy have something going for them. There's no "realistic" way to incorporate ads into those games. Thank God.

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I can suspend my disbelief further to ignore the opposeing faction in these zones.

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Well, I could too. But the whole PvP thing started because some people couldn't do that. Their immersion would be ruined if they saw a villain and couldn't attack it. I suggested the WoW style PvP for that reason. However, what they really mean is their immersion would be ruined if they couldn't attack, but they don't want to attack because they hate PvP, so don't merge the games/zones/factions or they'll look like a wuss.

I still say the zones should be opened up, the games merged, with or without PvP. But that's me.

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I only confront your suggestion of WoW PvP because this isn't WoW, and WoW isn't grief free. I would love opening all the zones with some thematic, ungriefable PvP elements, but I just don't see such a system really being possible, with the number of holes that have been poked in your suggestion alone.

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This game is grief free?

Do you play WoW?

Because I do, and I play on both PvE and PvP servers, and I have never been griefed on a PvE server which does allow me to engage in PvP if I choose to do so. I have never accidentally turned on my PvP flag.

The only holes that were poked regarding my suggestion were in the misconceptions of the readers here. The fact that some people wouldn't like it doesn't mean it can't be done here. If they figured out a way to add PvP after the game was made and launched, they can figure out a way to incorporate it in a more realistic way so as not to ruin immersion. Unless of course, you're saying the player base here is not intelligent enough to understand a system like WoW's. You don't seem to understand what I'm saying so I guess it's possible.

You don't think open zones without PvP is realistic but you dislike world PvP.

I suggested WoW's PvE style PvP, which is not world PvP. Maybe you don't understand what world PvP is?

You think heroes and villains in the same zones means they can "pal around" when no one is suggesting that at all. That's what you've been taught by this game because the only way they allow heroes and villains in the same zone is for the purpose of palling around. That is more "immersion breaking" than anything I suggested.

World PvP should only be offered if it's on a separate server, and there aren't enough hardcore PvPers in this game to warrant that, imo. It could always be added later, if the game attracted more PvPers down the road. As it is now, people that don't want to PvP but want to do missions or get badges in PvP zones feel like the PvP is forced on them. To keep those people happy, a compromise would be in order, and that's the flag on/off type of PvP. It allows those that would attack a character of the opposite faction to do so, and allows those that don't want to the ability to avoid it. Considering it works in other games, there is no reason it couldn't work here, other than engine restrictions or dev disinterest.

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I can suspend my disbelief further to ignore the opposeing faction in these zones.

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Well, I could too. But the whole PvP thing started because some people couldn't do that. Their immersion would be ruined if they saw a villain and couldn't attack it. I suggested the WoW style PvP for that reason. However, what they really mean is their immersion would be ruined if they couldn't attack, but they don't want to attack because they hate PvP, so don't merge the games/zones/factions or they'll look like a wuss.

I still say the zones should be opened up, the games merged, with or without PvP. But that's me.

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What do you mean, "Which is it?" What I said and what you just said are the same argument. The red side has a smaller niche, therefore it's entirely logical that not as much developer attention is paid to it.

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It's not the same thing at all.

People don't play red side because the devs don't add new content, the devs don't add new content because not enough people play red side. It's a circular argument, a Catch-22 as someone said earlier, but it isn't the same thing.

The problem red side rests with the devs. It's their game, it's up to them to draw players to that side. The same way it's up to them to draw players to the game period. Marketing can only do so much with a crappy game. It's up to the devs to make it better and make it a game that people want to play.

This [censored] excuse that gets tossed out, that the devs don't, and shouldn't, do anything for red side because not enough people play there, is only feeding the agenda of the players that don't care to play a villain in the first place. They want all the attention on the half of the game they prefer, and screw the other players, even though that side doesn't need any more.

The second thing I fault the devs for is never telling the players what they're planning. I don't mean in the next issue, I mean in the long term. What, if anything, is going to be done for red side. If it's nothing, have the balls to tell us now so we can cancel our accounts instead of dicking us around. Not that I'll be back when my sub runs out, anyway. It's too little, too late for me. I feel sorry for the rest of the poor schmucks hoping they do something to revive red side. Good luck to them.

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I think the people who take the "fewer players play villains than heroes because the villain side gets less developer attention" approach are confusing cause and effect and, as such, are just advocating that the development team waste a lot of time swimming against the current.

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And yet, the red side players that have been advocating more content for the last year are told, by players like you, that "the reason red side gets less developer attention is because there aren't enough players there".

So which is it?

There aren't enough players there to warrant dev attention, or there isn't enough dev attention so less players play it? Better yet, we're told that we, the players, should get more business for villain side.

I don't know why I even bother. Every Issue that comes out here is just another nail in my subscription coffin. My PC can't handle GV anymore, and I hate the mentality of the majority of the player base here. In 4 years I've never had a problem running WoW, and now I can't wait for Age of Conan, c'mon May 20th.

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And if a villain were in, say, Atlas Park, what should happen when he gets within aggro range of a Hellion? Or more realistically, a level 25 Villain riding the sub to IP and then aggroing Family or DE. If that drops them into PvP mode, gank city. If it doesn't, it's time to killsteal.

Not to mention the group of level 50 heroes with maxed Perception that would hang out at the villain zone-in point(s) in IP and follow them around, waiting for them to go PvP.

Of course they would be somewhat countered by the villains that gathered in large groups while untargetable, waiting for signal to all go PvP at once and spike the first poor fool to attack one of them.

Thank you NancY, I think I understand your proposal more, but I still like my own idea better.

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If a villain got within aggro range of a hellion the hellion would attack the same way they do with a hero. No that would not put you in PvP mode. The hellion is an NPC bad guy, right? He can be attacked by a hero or a villain. PvP mode is only turned on by yourself, or attacking the opposite faction whether it's a drone, guard, or player.

If level 50s have nothing better to do than sit at certain points waiting to gank people then that says more about the game being broken than anything else. However, if the villain in that situation doesn't want to be ganked he makes sure he doesn't enter PvP mode or he brings a large group of friends for back up. It's not rocket science. Since there'd be no rewards of any kind for dishonorable kills I'm not so sure there'd be a lot of that going on. And if our PvP community is so small that they're basically scoffed at on the forums, what's there to worry about?

I'm not sure I know what idea you're talking about. The separate PvP server idea? That separates the players more than they already are? City of Segregation, wonderful. If we don't like you, if we fear you, we segregate you! Whee!

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But wait, do PPD aggro on villains? Seems like they should. They don't help villains out like they do heroes, do they? In which case, the cohabitation isn't really an effect way to provide villain content, because you open yourself up to PvP through normal play.

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PPD should attack, there's no difference between a NPC villain and a player villain in that regard. And vice versa if a hero went to villain zones, they'd be attacked by those drones or guards. All you'd have to do is run away. If attacking opens you up to PvP and you don't want that, don't attack back. Jeez, with our travel powers how could you not get away?

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See in WoW, Horde may be able to go to Alliance territory, but there's nothing for them to do there. They go for other reasons, mostly disruptive ones. They can go because the world is seamless and no one is stopping them. But they aren't welcome - there's no content for them there.

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The real low level starting areas don't, and the main fortified cities don't and are dangerous for opposite factions to enter, but there the mid to high level zones are for both factions on a PvE server, with quests for both factions. I'm not sure what you mean by seamless, you have to zone like here, you just don't have artificial boundaries.

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But here, we're trying to figure out how to get villains more content, cheaply. Having villains in Paragon on this type of "unwelcome" flag system prevents that from happening, at least for people that want to separate their PvE from their PvP.

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Giving villains more content cheaply isn't going to attract more players villain side. That's kind of why I made my suggestion in the first place. Do away with a villain side. Do away with a hero side. Make it one game where both have to mingle, but try to make it realistic by allowing PvP for those that want it, especially for immersion. That way, would it really matter how many or few people played villains?

Giving PvPers access to more zones but separate from non PvPers still divides the player base. Something needs to be done to stop dividing the player base, not divide it even more, imo.