MentalMaden
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Posts
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Joined
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After a rewatch:
It's great to see they are setting up the importance of "The Rains(Reynes) of Castamere". That song will be haunting once the RW happens.
It's great how they played up the differences in kingly responsibilities between Stannis and Joffrey. It's also nice they are showing the difference between Joff and Tommen.
I don't think I need to sing Dinklage's praises here. There is only one person on the planet that can be Tyrion and he's got the job. Perfect. And finally they give him his ax!
Sansa's story is taking the right turn and Sophie Turner is really becoming a great little actress.
The Hound shines this episode as he shines in that portion of the book as well. Can't wait for the future Hound/Arya dynamic to come.
But I think the real winner of the episode is Lena Headey and Cersei. She kills this performance. I hated watching her in the Keep because it shows so well what a horrible person she is. On second watch it was wonderful, because of what kind of a job Headey is doing. You really get the sense of her unraveling and becoming all the things she hated about Robert. Loved that they showed how Sansa behaves more like a queen than the self preserving Cersei. And the final scene on rewatch with her telling the story to Tommen was a master class in acting.
This episode is the perfect encapsulation of why the book series has captured so many readers. It's thrilling, surprising, scary and complicated. It's never dumbed down. This episode is as fine an episode of television that anyone is likely to see for a long time. I just hope that the same team GRRM and Neil Marshall are allowed to do the RW. It's a must. -
Rewatching on HBO GO. If you haven't watched an episode with the interactive features and you like stuff like directors commentary on DVDs you really should check it out. If you have HBO you can access GO. It's pretty awesome.
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Chrome, since you are in the book spoilers thread I'll assume you don't mind spoilage. Never fear, Tyrion is fine (scarred, but fine). Much much more of his story to go. Besides he's George's favorite character and the one most like himself. Tyrion ain't goin' anywhere anytime soon.
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Yay! Blackwater!
1. Green wildfire! Squeeeeeee! Great visual FX.
2. Bronn is a Bada$$
3. Stannis is a Bada$$
4. The Hound is a fire hating cut people in half Bada$$.
5. Tyrion is (of course) a MF'ing Bada$$.
6. Podrick is a Bada$$. I literally yelled "Poderick!" when he speared that soldier.
Cersei was the typically horrible person that she is.
A great Sansa episode. Sansa Stark? I'd say more like Sansa Snark. Good to see her growing up.
Just my initial thoughts. Will talk more later. -
Blackwater tonight! Woot! A George written episode. I'll likely be posting right after. Can't wait!
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I got the same impression as Mental Giant. She'd lost sight of being Khaleesi and here was her chance at getting it all back and getting back on track.
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Question about the television series:
Initially after casting they announced Oona Chaplin as Jeyne (no last name given) yet on the show she has so far gone by Talisa from Volantis. Given this is a vast departure from the books do you think there is going to be more to Talisa (i.e. she's actually a Westerosi named Jeyne concealing her true identity) or that for whatever reasons the powers that be decided to completely reinvent the character?
I don't think the changes so far are a huge deal as there are obvious reasons to make changes to this story so Robb isn't away for an entire season and I think we'll end up in the same place as the books. I just wonder why they've manipulated the story to have her come directly from Essos.
Theories? Thoughts?
Trivia: the actress is Charlie Chaplin's granddaughter. -
I'm not sure the books would be nearly as good if it wasn't for the simultaneous conflict/support of the POV structure. It allows for wonderful speculation, theorizing and paranoia for the reader.
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Quote:Everything I see says "shortly after" up to a year. Martin is known to give conflicting accounts to things. Sometimes for particular effect and other times by mistake.Originally Posted by Frogfather
It couldnt have been a year....Jaime was born in 266 and knighted at the confirmed age of 15 at 281 before the Harrenhall tournament. So it could have been early 281 but more likely mid to late 281. Neds dad and brother died in 282 and marked the start of Roberts Rebellion. I dont have seasons to mark the early or lateness in a year but it seems to me considering transit times and such that Brandon wouldnt have heard about Lyanna/Rhaegar for a month or two, then another month transit time, then another month for Rickard to make it down to KL to be burned.
Unless theres something to the contrary Im going to assume Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, Im sorry...was abducted by....shortly after that tourney. She just didnt have time to make it back home and the whole thing to start.
I know thats all nitpicky so if anyone points out a flaw I will give-over. Im not interested in defending it.
According to A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
or the conflicting:Quote:During the Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar Targaryen seemed unstoppable, and defeated even Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Taking the winter rose crown for the Queen of Love and Beauty, he revealed his interest in Lyanna Stark by passing over his wife, the Princess Elia of Dorne, and setting it in Lyanna's lap[3] A year later Rhaegar apparently kidnapped Lyanna, for reasons unknown, however this act ultimately triggered Robert's Rebellion and the downfall of the Targaryen dynasty.
orQuote:Shortly after the tournament Lyanna was apparently kidnapped by Rhaegar. Brandon Stark, upon hearing this, rode straight to King's Landing, and upon entering the keep he roared for Rhaegar "to come out and die." King Aerys had Brandon and his companions arrested. Shortly after his father, Rickard Stark, was summoned to the city to answer for the crimes of his son. He was immediately arrested himself and shortly after brutally killed with his son.[6] This was a primary impetus for Robert's Rebellion.
or the vague:Quote:Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen was champion, and in the end chose Lyanna Stark as Queen of Love and Beauty giving her a crown of blue winter roses. This was scandalous in that, not only was Rhaegar already married (to Elia of Dorne), but Lyanna herself was betrothed to Lord Robert Baratheon.[2] Rhaegar's indiscretion culminated in his abduction of Lyanna a year later, which touched off the War of the Usurper and brought an end to Targaryen rule. Also at this occasion, 15-year-old Jaime Lannister was admitted into the order of the Kingsguard, and a mystery knight, the "Knight of the Laughing Tree", appeared in the lists to fight for the honour of Howland Reed of Greywater Watch.
Quote:Robert fell in love with Eddard's sister Lyanna, and her father Lord Rickard approved the match.[3] However, some time after this event Lyanna was apparently kidnapped and taken against her will from Winterfell by Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.[1] The kidnapped set in motion a chain of events that lead to Robert's Rebellion.
You can't go by seasons as the entire year is typically one season. It's all kind of squished in the 281-282 timeframe. Whether or not it's an actual year or a few months one way or the other, I don't know. -
Quote:Rheagar didn't disappear with Lyanna from the Tourney at Harrenhal. He only crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. It was another year before he disappeared with her and Robert's Rebellion started.Originally Posted by Frogfather
Jaime was born in 266 AL, Promoted to the Kingsguard during or just before the Tourney at Harrenhal, the same Harrenhall the Rhaegar disappeared from (presumably with Lyanna)...then Tywin resigned, right in the middle of the man hunt for Rhaegar. The rebellion began with Rhaegars disappearance, that was something you think an involved Hand would want to stick around for.
I have no problem with your description of motives, I think your timeline is slightly misleading. -
Quote:Some theorize the heterochromia of his eyes is a clue as the only other character described as having it was one of Aegon Vs children.Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I must have missed that... my mind is blown!
Also if you follow the R+L=J theory all three (Jon, Dany and Tyrion) of their mothers died giving birth to them. Buh buh bummmmmmmmm!
I don't buy Tyrion as a Targ though. -
Considering the name of the last episode of this season, it sure doesn't seem like they are making drastic changes to her future story.
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I've been a big fan of the Arya/Tywin dynamic this season, just for the acting. But one thing I can't seem to shake is one change to the Harrenhal story.
I think it was smart to simplify the story. I have no problem with that. But I do think they are missing an important aspect to Arya in not having her change names and identities around Harrenhal. I think this is an important step in her development leading her to the Faceless Men. Maybe they will incorporate a similar story with her travels next season before she takes off for Bravos, but that is the one thing that feels missing in what is one of the strongest parts of this season.
Thoughts? -
Quote:Predictive fix.Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I noticed that too... I bet that's a red herring!
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Boooooooooooooooooooooo
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Quote:(My opinion)Originally Posted by Frost Warden
I've been re-reading Clash of Kings during this season, so I could see the differences between the book and the show. I just read about Dany is the House of the Undying, and was thinking about what the warlocks were speaking to her. Specifically, I've been thinking about the "dragon with three heads".
This statement was said by Rhaegar right at the birth of his son, Aegon. He said that there was another, believing that his two children, Rhaenys and Aegon, were the first two heads. Rhaenys was definitely killed, so we can rule out that she was one of the three heads. So, looking at what we have:
1. Daenerys - There is solid evidence that she is definitely a Targaryen.
2. Jon Snow - Circumstantial evidence is pointing to him being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
3. Aegon - While it is said that Gregor Clegane killed Aegon by bashing against the wall, babies do look a lot alike if you aren't around them enough to notice differences. Of course, we only have Varys' word on this, so we can't be sure.
Of course, we only just learned of Aegon in book 5, so it's very well possible that he isn't Aegon, and Martin may yet pull another rabbit out of his hat to be the third head.
Also, since quite a few of the other visions at the House of the Undying are apparent, there is one that is a little mysterious: the dead man on the boat, with gray lips. I've seen conjecture that this is a Greyjoy; the gray lips and the reference to a drowned/dead person may be correct in this. Any ideas?
Aegon is the mummer's dragon. Fake. An unknowing pawn in Varys' game. I don't think he's living very much longer to be honest.
The three heads are likely Dany, Jon and Tyrion. If that prophecy is even true. Which it really doesn't have to be. We've seen several already not come to pass. -
Have to agree with Lothic on The Last Resort. Seems more mini series/movie than series to me.
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I believe there is a Friday Fight Night in Pocket D. Ariel (I believe) runs this or has something to do with it.
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Quote:The Reed children is a tricky subject. So much exposition from them in the books, you'd think their addition would be helpful to tell a lot of the history like they did in the books. They are going one of two ways, either removing them completely and substituting someone else (my thoughts maybe Maester Luwin will be spared and sent with Bran and Hodor). While its not the same flavor wise, he could end up doing a lot of the explaining that Jojen does.Originally Posted by Tocharon
I agree with this,
while it is a departure from the books, the entire Arya & Tywin interaction has to be one of the gems of this season, both due to the actors and the writting, I do have to wonder is something that Martin looking back 7+ years and 3 books latter, wished he had written instead for that part of Arya's story( still trying to figure out how he will tie her back into the main story)
the one thing that concerns me is the absense of the Reed children from Bran's story
Or we may just haven't seen them yet and they could meet up with them next season along their travels. We haven't met Ramsay Snow yet but do know that he's coming based on Rooses comments to Robb. So it may just be that like Ramsay we'll see the Reed next year instead. If you look how the story has been doled out between characters (its a rather character dense story this season) it would be hard to give the Reeds any real amount of time before their journey. Not to mention it may be hard to tie down two child actors for such a small amount of screen time and may make more sense to wait for the actual journey in Season 3. So don't lose hope yet.
Personally I think the story can be told without them EXCEPT I think the Reed family will play a very important role later in book 6 or 7. But not necessarily the Reed kids. The only person alive that was at the Tower of Joy with Ned was Howland Reed (their father) and I believe he knows the truth about what went on there and what the true nature of Rheagar and Lyanna's relationship was and potential parentage of a certain popular ******* now bleeding smoke at the Wall.
The Reed kids are such good flavor to the story though and Bran's relationship with the Reed daughter may prove important down the line as well. They kind of remind me of the Tom Bombadil of ASOIAF. Kind of "out there", colorful characters that are a lot of fun, but may end up in the scheme of things nothing more than window dressing to the greater story. It would be a shame to lose them, but I'm holding out hope we'll just end up seeing them down the road. -
Quote:Heh, yeah the Qarth stuff has been fun for this "reader". It's always nice to be surprised, even when you love the source material. I figured you'd want to just watch and be surprised, etc, but figured I'd offer.Originally Posted by Lothic
Thanks but I'll just watch how it plays out in the show. From what you imply there seems to be enough book-divergent parts that it'll be something everyone ought to watch regardless of prior book knowledge. And if there's stuff I guessed wrong we'll all know soon enough.
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The last two weeks have been some of the most divergent of the series. I think for the most part they are taking us where we need to go and keep the overall story pointed in the right direction. Some of the changes are simply keeping things more streamlined for the television viewer and others so we can get some exposition without it involving prostitutes for a change. Here are my thoughts on a few of them.
1. Arya in Harrenhal. I think they had to simplify this storyline. To be honest on first reading it was a pretty confusing and convoluted story. For me I had to do quite a bit of wiki reading to keep up with who was who. Different sides holding it and taking it and switching allegiences would be way too confusing for the non reader/viewer and would require introducing too many characters too quickly for a 10 episode season. And watching the Arya/Tywin interaction has been worth it all. These two actors are putting out some of the best stuff this season. I think in the end we'll get to see the same outcome. Tywin will likely have to leave the castle before Arya can pull her third trigger and we'll probably end up somewhere similar to the way it happened in the books for her escapte. The only disappointing thing is not seeing her take on all the different identities which are good foreshadowing for her trip across the narrow sea.
2. Jon and Ygritte. I've seen a lot of people upset with this change, but I think it's merely a lateral change to give some exposition to who the Freemen are and Jon's family lineage being similar to make his "betrayal" more realistic to the Wildlings. I think its pretty likely that Quorin will already be captured by Rattleshirt and from there he and Jon will plot the same ending as the books.
3. Robb and Jeyne/Talisa. Probably the weakest addition, but forgivable given that they can't have him disappear for a season like the books and come back in love. I will agree with the Elio and Linda at Westeros that her "job" is a bit heavy handed and cliched. But as I said, forgivable.
4. Jaime. I think we are getting to the same place as the books, just different location and motivations for some characters involved (Karstark for instance). The acting last night was spectacular between Jaime and Cat. And his brief interaction with Brienne felt perfect.
5. Dany in Qarth. A vast improvement from the books. Necessary? Probably not, but there needed to be something more compelling than Dany getting proposed to from a vastly different Xaros. I think the only thing that will be disappointing is if the House of the Undying turns into a fight for her "children" with no prophecy involved. Not a game changer as they could give away too much if they aren't subtle enough (and I don't know if you can pull it off on TV as opposed to book), but I think it was such a strong, trippy image from the books, I'd hate to not see it. I think we'll obviously see the same fate to the House though, just better motivation though in my opinion.
Edit- Question. I know Jaime pretty much admits to Cat the truth to his and Cersei's relationship, but I don't remember Cersei and Tyrion having any kind of conversation similar to the one we saw last night. It was a great bit of acting and dialogue, but I don't remember her ever really admitting that to Tyrion as it would slide quite a bit of power his way. -
Quote:1) There is another way to look at this. Won't spoil it for you though.Originally Posted by Lothic
Still liking the show for the most part, probably because they haven't mentioned the Wall lately as much as anything else.
A few random comments:
1) The millisecond John Snow found an "attractive Wildling" you pretty much knew she was going to be his eventual first sexual experience (tell me that's -not- going to happen) and that somehow she was going to lead him "Dances with Wolves" style toward interacting with the Wildlings. I'm not going to assume Snow will totally "go native" and join the Wildlings at this point, but his interaction with them will at least help him learn more about these people and understand who he's dealing with when the time comes.
2) The instant "The Mother of Dragons" entered Qarth you pretty much knew that someone there would take her dragons and that there'd be some intrigue with that. It's hardly surprising that the guy who helped her into the city would be the one to take advantage of her vulnerable situation. I'm not going to pretend I know exactly how her visit to Qarth will be resolved, but you pretty much had to know that the city was not going to be the safe haven it first appeared to be.
3) The moment they put that messenger/squire guy (sorry, forgot his name) in with Jamie Lannister we knew that he was going to be a dead man. Once you've established a character nasty enough to push boys from tall towers you pretty much expect the only way Jamie's going to handle anyone else he considers "inferior" to himself is as sacrificial pawns. Not saying I don't like the way he operates (for instance I loved his disrespectful quips at Brienne and how he overtly told his new "squire buddy" that he was going to die). Just saying he's become a bit predictable in his dickishness.
4) I figure there's about a 99.5% chance that those two burned bodies Theon displayed back in Winterfell are NOT the two Stark boys. They were probably those two farmboys we saw running around that Theon used as a diversion to let the real Stark boys escape. Yes Theon's having to be all brutal and nasty to prove his worth to his father but I suspect he still cares enough about the Starks to not want to want to kill them outright. He's clearly not totally evil because he wants to be - he's just stuck in the position of having to be nasty in order to gain back his family's respect.
5) It'll be interesting to see what Tywin Lannister does with Arya Stark. He pretty much knows she's not a commoner and at this point he might even already know exactly who she is. But sooner or later he'll have unquestionable proof as to her identity. I suppose he'll try to use her to get Jamie back but of course she still has one more "kill any man you want" card from that assassin guy so maybe she'll kill Tywin via that guy.
2) This entire storyline is a radical departure from the books. And a welcome one in my opinion. Not so much backstabbing and stealing in the books. More just proposals and prophesizing.... and waiting around. Honestly it's a welcome addition to her story. It's also nice as its a good source of surprises for us readers.
3) This was a good window into the way Jaime thinks and acts. Some differences from the books but getting us to the same place. And yes his interaction with Brienne was spot on Jaime.
4) Too spoilery to say one thing or the other on this plot point.
5) Another non book plotline and a welcome one solely for the quality of the scenes between the two actors. Without getting too spoilery on the outcome of Harrenhal, I won't say much more than that. It will definitely play out a bit differently, but end in the same place I believe.
Some pretty good observations, Lothic. If you have specific questions you want answered send me a PM.
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Some great acting in this episode. I won't discuss changes from the book here as they could be spoilery. But I will say that so far there aren't many that I really disagree with.
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Quote:It's his Ion Judgement. If anyone is an Incarnate, it's Thor.Originally Posted by Dark One
Eh, I'd consider his storm bit to be an APP style thing, Electrical Mastery if that was available to tanks. His main thing is smashy and taking the hits.
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Think of different builds as ways to specialize a build. For instance you could have a solo build and a team build on a controller. The solo build will focus on damage and personal survivability and the team build would focus more on team support through control/buffs.