Memphis_Bill

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should try a dictionary instead of an economic formula. And realize, again, that these bits of salvage and recipes are not manufactured and shipped items, and have no cost to recoup.

[/ QUOTE ]

Time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Space.

[ QUOTE ]
Merging the markets would NOT cause inflation. The prices in a merged market would be between the prices of the two current markets. If you would like I can use simply forms of ADDITION to show you how and why this is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmhnmmm.

Let's see.

- Supply (what's on the market *right now*) gets merged.
- Villainside supply, priced lower because, well, that's what the villain market is set on, gets snapped up by the "lower" hero bids.
- Villain bids don't get filled.
- Higher hero bids become the status quo again, because people heroside - admitted already in this thread to have a higher population - are used to pricing *and buying* them at the higher cost, forcing villains to go to the *same* price.

Or are you going to try to sell that bit of snake-oil and have us believe that there's going to be this massive attack of "Oh ma gorsh, we'd better pull down those high cost pieces, eat the fee, and reprice them lower!"

Not going to happen. Current bids (and sale prices) don't suddenly go "Gee, there's suddenly more people!" Asking prices don't automatically re-average themselves.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Ancient Bone. 680 bidding, 1689 for sale. 6-15k *each.* Better than 2:1 supply to demand. Shouldn't that be down near vendor level? Same with circuit boards (same ratio and 5-11k price range.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not "Supply" to "Demand" ratio. Your understanding of "Supply and Demand" does not correspond to the economic concepts of Supply and Demand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, forgive this humble, wretched, idiot of a layman.

Supply, as normal, everyday people would look at it, would be "what's out there."
Demand, again as someone without five hundred letters in Ivy Green after their name and solid gold plated nose hair would see it, is "How many people want it."

Now, I realize to oh such a demigod of Franklins as yourself, in your castle made of spreadsheets papered with IBM and Microsoft stock certificates issued at day of release for fifty cents a piece, it's some formula that would take three pages to write out, incantations written in blood, three dead chickens and the right candles to enact.

Then again, as mentioned, I seem to recall you being part of the conversation where "Putting something on the market cheaply hurts supply." Where the "demand" for some of those very same items, in - y'know, every day english, not highfallutin' econobabble - is nonexistant because... get this... nobody wants it, so the supply - again, pardon my poor choice to use everyday english, please cut out my tongue and tie me to the whippin' post, but "How much there is to fill a possible need" - is most certainly *there.* And remains "there" - as in, sitting, unmoving on the market, at a price someone could sneeze and get the INF for - for weeks on end.

Perhaps you should try a dictionary instead of an economic formula. And realize, again, that these bits of salvage and recipes are not manufactured and shipped items, and have no cost to recoup.

Edit:

And yes, I get tired of people wanting to redefine words. Have since Clinton insisted on questioning the definition of "is." So if you're reading *every ounce of scorn* I have for that into this, congrats, you're reading it correctly. You want to use jargon, use it in an economics class. There's a time and place for it, and *this isn't it.* You want to tell me "When I talk, and I say red, I mean blue. You meaning 'red' by red? Pshaw!" ... don't even bother replying.

Jumping around a bit.

[ QUOTE ]

60k for a luck charm. So are you calling the person buying it for that price stupid or the person selling it for that price stupid or both?


[/ QUOTE ]

Those who are busy selling it, training those who would actually *like* the item, into seeing a "must buy" price *Far* higher than it should be... y'know, the folks who like buying up supplies and marking them up, for starters. The reason things can be 2:1 supply:demand and still be far higher than is, frankly, sensible.

[ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that we should blame the patient for high prices?


[/ QUOTE ]

The "patient," in many instances, won't get squat from my experience. "This IO/salvage/recipe is only worth X to me." *put up bid* - and I mean a reasonable one. Even a "high" reasonable one. Let it sit there, and see it notmove for weeks or, in some instances, months. I don't mean "Oh, 45k instead of 60." Hell, 40 will probably be flipped.

If I'm trying to craft to help out lowbies, my SG or what have you, and I need some of the "big" salvage, saying "Well, I'll need this in a month when we start those" and putting up bids for 10k won't get me a thing. That bid will sit, and sit, and sit. 20 won't. 30, *maybe.* After a while, congrats, you've trained people to say "Why bother, I either have to pay this stupid price or not have my bid filled."

It's not *worth* it to me, despite your sigged quote. It's an attitude, instead, of "I have no real choice. This, or hoping the RNG likes me."

There's no *cost* involved in getting them. You don't have to pay 5k to get the metal, 4k for jewels, pay labor, etc. It's purely "let's see how high I can go." Which is part of why I say you can't take real-world economics theory and graft it onto the game. Real world has to take materials, taxes, labor costs, etc. into account. In game (talking about salvage and recipes, obviously) - it's *luck of the drop.* (Barring buying with merits.)

"Vendoring hurts supply?" If I've got a recipe (as I do in several instances) for sale for weeks at *6 inf* - why would I waste time putting another up, versus vendoring it? Hurting the market? Someone wanting something on a fluke can pick it up for the price what they fight between the train and the market. Why *wouldn't* I vendor a pet recipe Heroside? Why put up any Snipe recipe other than manticore? *Lack of demand* for it also drives the lack of supply. Forget that reason?

Though, again, I *love* the comment that pricing things low like that hurts supply somehow. Not yours, I'll have to find it. I do believe it was Mr "trained economist."

[ QUOTE ]

Even in the real world its the impatient that over spend
<snip>
do the same thing in game. I never purchase new IO sets the issue they are released unless I see an opportunity to do so for less than the value I assign that IO. If I get one as a drop I'll use it but by the time the next issue comes out all the impatient people that cranked the price through the roof have purchased the sets they want and the price drops significantly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Riiiiight. That's why some IOs and sets, even reasonably common drops stay high regardless. All the impatient people finished getting theirs... wait, that doesn't work.

Hmm. Wonder why people like merits. And *will* like tickets.

[ QUOTE ]

I've run several tests and in the range the luck charms drop as long as you fight a mixture of arcane and tech foes you will eventually receive all the salvage you need to make all the enhancements you could use from level 7-25


[/ QUOTE ]

Great if I want to farm and/or solo, I suppose. Funny how I end up on teams with friends and blow past that nice and fast... Darn me and actually wanting to enjoy the time I'm subscribed with friends! I should be farming and digging my eyes out with sporks for a reprieve from the boredom!

[ QUOTE ]

How do you manage your IOs and in game budget?


[/ QUOTE ]

For the most part, ignore sets entirely. High level sets up lvl 15 IOs for lowbies, to get through the DO levels. One set, perhaps of SOs (typically respeccing to pull out the IOs for the next wave of lowbies.) Don't bother with IOs 'til they're 25-30. Leave them at that unless there's good reason not to.

Yeah. We should just trust the economists. Got any CEOs of banks to go with them? They've done such a wonderful job in the real world, they couldn't possibly guess wrong...

I do love the bit of "blame the players" vibe going. At least you mentioned holding on to reicpes instead of salvage. Know why my SG doesn't deal with the market, but passes stuff around to each other?

Because 60k for a luck charm is f'ing stupid. Because I'd rather have a friend have that nice Armageddon proc for their tank than a bunch of numbers nobody but I can see.

Oh, wait, must be exploiting something then, right? Just like my listing recipes low is seriously damaging supply... even if they don't sell for weeks on end. Yeah, theorycraft! Really matches up with the real (game) world!

[ QUOTE ]

Most of the anti-merger crowd fall into 2 groups. The Role players that wouldn't sell to the other faction and the exploiters that don't want to lose out on the opportunity for profiteering.


[/ QUOTE ]

*snort* right. Go on with that. Just be sure to finish flipping something up to a higher price - oh, then blame the impatient for the high prices, can't forget that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How? Just because everyone uses the same sets, we know prices would rise.

fixt for errors. it is because everyone uses the same stuff that prices would rise. [u]you dont pay attention to the markets very well do you geko. [u]you really cant see how there would be a lack of supply and a growth in demand? or higher prices because of more demand? seriously, stop thinking in dollar figures and think about the casual gamer. and then think about why only about 15% of the population of both games use the markets. it gets harder to make money when the only people using the markets are the "flippers".

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're right. My main only has money and enhancers worth well over a billion inf.

I was waiting for the casual gamer thing to come out. The flippers paradise we have redside is what hurts casual gamers. Why you and Bill think that economic theory that has proven itself for 200 years suddenly goes out the window when applied to this situation is beyond me.

It's almost time for me to head out for the weekend so I'll leave you to your opinion. Bill, as always, fun tussling with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

See comments about supply control. And I'd say it's the lower *everything but price* redside that hurts the market there, frankly.

But, have a good weelemd. I'm busy typing up more guides...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(b) the devs taking action, either seeding the market or increasing drop rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

A major problem with the markets is the Invention system itself. Recipes badly need to be rebalanced with more logical salvage requirements weighted towards Tech salvage instead of Magic. (Example: Generic Defense. What the hell were they thinking?!)

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree. There would be less issue with some salvage costing an arm and a leg if some (again, say Luck Charms) weren't overused in recipes. When's the last time you used a Scope for anything? Or that - don't even recall the name, crystal skull thing?

While I wasn't fond of base (and empowerment) recipes now needing invention salvage, one thing they DID do right was to have three different recipes for each "thing." I'd *love* to see that come to common recipes so there are more options and demand for salvage is spread around. (Sets and such can, for the most part, remain as is.)

Just going to quote the bit that gives me the biggest chuckle.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Very high demand items are more expensive or non-existent redside. Supply would go up, drifting prices between blue side and red side to the equillibrium point. Interestingly enough that point is not midway between blue side (cheaper) and red side. It's closer to blue side because blues population is larger.


[/ QUOTE ]

Supply would *not* go up. You have the same supply that existed on both sides - merged. The same demand that existed on both sides - merged.

Barring raising drop rates, *Supply would not go up on its own.* You couldn't even say "redside" or "blueside" there would be... because there would be no *side.*

You have 100 people blueside, with 50 items for sale.

You have 30 bids redside, with ten items for sale.

Total? 130 people bidding, 60 items.

Merge the markets. What do you have?

... 130 people bidding, 60 items.

Yes, each side would see more *relative to what they did before.* But they would also be competing against more people.

The only way supply is going to increase is (a) higher subscriptions - which also will lead to higher demand on the markets, or (b) the devs taking action, either seeding the market or increasing drop rates.

(And meanwhile, that person with, say, a 100k bid for a Mu vestment Redside - making up numbers here - STILL isn't going to get it, because blueside the low bid is 300k... where do you think the 150k Redside vestments would go?)

OK, some of the others...

[ QUOTE ]

1) Flipping DEPENDS on a smaller market. Manipulation is much harder when you can't control a product's supply. On red side, it is easier to make inf as a marketeer than blue side because of this. Add in the garguatuan supply blueside and many tricks go away.


[/ QUOTE ]

Riiight. Because all the "Goes back to flipping X" comments are never from people doign it blueside. mmkay.

[ QUOTE ]

4) A larger market brings supply stability. A stable supply, even of an expensive product mitigates against price swings because people are more willing to bid for a reasonable price. Right now on red side, supply is so low that some people are willing to pay more just to be able to secure any product that comes on the market. That pressure lessens when there is ample supply.


[/ QUOTE ]

Riiiiiiiight. That's why redside prices on those items were the same or *lower* than blueside. Oh... wait...

You *cannot* just take real world economics and slap them into a game. Yes, some of it will work. But if there's demand for a piece - say, Dellwaple Computers makes this ZOMG Gotta have laptop - they can ramp up production to meet it. Since they're buying more pieces from their suppliers, they - and likely their suppliers - can get the materials cheaper.

I don't see "Luck Charms, Inc" in game ramping up production. There is no control over production of salvage. There's the random drop you get - yes, you can *try* to sway it by fighting certain mobs to up your chances, but you may well just get 20 Spirit Thorns instead. You can't place an order for specific salvage, buy a lot of 10 for 100k, 50 for 85k each, 100+ for 60k each. (I'm not talking about bidding, I'm talking about bulk discounts.) They won't talk to Magic Gems and Mystic Metals for a bigger batch for your order to cut down production costs.

"Luck" is not a stable market supply.

[ QUOTE ]

3) Trade raises the standard of living on both sides. Both sides would benefit from what the other makes too much of. Red side would be able to sell salvage for a more meaningful prices (i.e. not vendor trash), blue side would be able to move pet recipes and such. You don't have to believe me. Just study trade, study business.


[/ QUOTE ]

Redside: "Great, I just sold the widget for 1000 instead of 700! Now let's look at these recipes... holy crud, they're three times what they used to be thanks to blueside historic prices."

Of course, those would be the recipes that everyone sharing the same sets would want...

*waits for whoever that bonehead in the market forum was to come in and tell me that placing those recipes up for 6 inf is evil because it guts supply... even though they haven't moved in weeks.*

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah I do, because I understand what "demand" means. If I put up a flipping bid of 10K for an Alchemical silver, that's not "demand". That's at best speculating. I'm hoping that I can catch people putting their stuff up for 5 inf or whatever at a time when there is no one willing to pay 50K. Then I'll resale for higher.


[/ QUOTE ]

... so even more people will get tired of the market and get their friends and SG mates to share the salvage/recipes/etc among themselves, or put the items in storage... Oh, wait, that's one of the other "evil" things the rest of the playerbase does. Wonder why... hmmm....

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i can only imagine how much the prices will inflate if this happens. reasoning behind this thought: everyone seems to think that there is way to much infl/inf floating around. this is not the case. while there are a few people who have billions that does not reflect on everyone else playing the game. especially the ones who can only play for a couple hrs a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

There would be no general inflation from a market merger. Some products, like salvage, would almost certainly deflate. Some products would receive welcome inflation, like hero side pet recipes (although it would be negligible). For villains, almost all prices, in all categories would drop. For heroes, any inflationary effect would be small.


[/ QUOTE ]

In theory, perhaps.

Redside would most *certainly* see inflation. Barring pet recipes (more in demand redside,) they use the same sets - and the same salvage.

And before anyone throws supply and demand at me - when there's a 2:1 ratio of supply TO demand, in theory, prices should drop, correct? Too much supply for the demand.

With (heroside) 6500+ people bidding on 700 (roughly) Alchemical Silvers, I understand them going for 50k (last five sales.) or 3000 people bidding on 75 Ancient Artifacts - yes, that's going to be somewhat spendy, too. Or the infamous luck charm, 7000 some bidding, 1300 for sale - pricy.

Ancient Bone. 680 bidding, 1689 for sale. 6-15k *each.* Better than 2:1 supply to demand. Shouldn't that be down near vendor level? Same with circuit boards (same ratio and 5-11k price range.)

Brass doesn't even follow the "Low supply equals overly high price." 1200 bidding, just over 200 for sale. Nearly 6:1, and it's "only" 500-1000, with a 5000 at the bottom there.

You REALLY think prices would deflate?

Redside, Alchemical Silver, just barely cheaper @40k, and still a 3:1 or better demand. That won't go down.
Ancient Artifact? The 592 for sale at 500 get bought up. Some use them. I'd *bet* a good number of them, though, get flipped and sold for more. Barely makes a dent (3000 people bidding on 75, remember.)
3 to 1 on luck charms (roughly, demand:supply) at 40-50k. That won't go down or come close to meeting demand.

Ancient bones - almost even (700 for 800 bids.) Those bids are obviously low, as the last five show 1000k. Heroside gets some of its demand filled, doesn't help villainside -what do you think will happen to the price of future ancient bones? The ones for sale blueside, with that disparity, I *highly* doubt are under 1000 - so villain demand isn't met.

Circuit boards (didn't save the hero numbers) might be filled, as there are *zero* bids, and 500-some for sale at about 2000... what do you think happens to price after that hits?

Brass gets even more of a glut with zero bids for 500+ supply.

That's just picking and choosing stuff I've had to look for recently.

"Prices would deflate," simply, smells like bovine leavings to me.

Blueside has more *farms,* it seems, generating INF, driving higher prices for in-demand items. Redside doesn't - I rarely hear of a TV farm, didn't even pre-family nerf. Prices would go *higher* than the tolerance Redside would have.

Essentially, you'd take the already on life support redside market and put a bullet through its head. Meanwhile, the people looking for things will just *ignore* the higher market prices in favor of merits and tickets, since people won't want to take the INF hit to delist the stuff they have sitting there. (Barring those who have been screwing around with it since issue 9.)

Prices may go down *relatively* on blueside, slightly. Redside? Forget it.

While I agree...

I'd personally like to see build progressions. How are you dealing with things pre-stamina? Pre-pets at 32? Pre-epics? If I'm trying ot make a decision on a build at 18, knowing how it works with stuff at 50 is nice... but I'm a ways away, and have to live long enough to GET to 50.

Browse through here for Thors_Assassin. He's got a DeviantArt page full of links to commissionable artists (several of whom are here.)

Prices and timeframe will vary by artist and what you want.

(Disclaimer: Not an artist, nor do I play one on TV. I have paid several in the past, though.

That's a possibility... for a couple of characters, actually. >.<

The other question being how to get the demorecords to you.

[ QUOTE ]
So just put together a bunch of Photos, sounds like a plan, I guess I'll do it that way and see about sending off for a commission. :3

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, be picky about them. They should be clear - shut off all your powers so the artist can see the costume, for instance. Keep a shot *with* them if it's important. Make sure they have the details you want. If the face, for instance, isn't "quite" there but they look, to you, like such-and-such a person, note that.

Look at it and think, "without knowing this character, do I 'get' them and could I, as an artist, portray them correctly?"

If all you need is the demo containing the character, it's easy enough to put it here. (As opposed to "fighting X" or "Doing a specific action.")

1. Hop into your SG base or somewhere there aren't a lot of people.

Not really *needed,* you can do this in Atlas Park in the middle of a costume contest, but the less to mess with the better.

2. Get into costume.

3. Type in:

/demorecord mycharacter

4. Let it run for a few seconds (say, count to 10.)

5. Type in:

/demostop

6. Go to the directory you installed City of Heroes in.
(Typically c:\program files\city of heroes, as I recall.)

In that directory, you will now find a folder called client_demos. In THAT folder, you'll find a file with whatever name you gave it - mycharacter.cohdemo (think that's the extension.)

That file is what he's requesting.

... and I may just do this. Just have to figure out who... >.>

I'm drawing a blank... I want to say Juggertha does.

That said, it's easy enough to set up overall "looks" and basic info for your characters, as long as you *have* decent screen shots. Watch your lighting...

Via screenshot, this is what I typically give someone I'm commissioning, with a little blurb about them and their powers. It's worked so far.

Always fun to watch.

Veddy interesting...

And a tad lethal. >.< Certainly a different look for him, as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Positron, I am a little concerned about the possible rate griefing involved with being able to rate an arc that hasn't been played. Especially when there are badges involved in rating unrated arcs or ones that don't have many ratings. A lot of people will probably get their badges simply by going down the line of unrated arcs, slapping a 1 star rating on them, and getting their badge in the process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, given that in order to rate an arc, you'd have to have played it, and there'd be a minimum amount of time TO play an arc, a time limit between ratings would probably make sense (say, ten minutes.)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
another poster, JohnathanBloom, found this:

http://www.massively.com/2009/02/26/...ity-of-heroes/

[/ QUOTE ]
Am I reading this right that we will be able to play with people from other servers on either side?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

If I publish an arc on a character on, say, Pinnacle, you don't have to be on Pinnacle to play it - just like you don't have to be on Pinnacle to bid on what my character puts on the market.

However, if you're on Justice, you can't team with my Pinnacle character and someone from Virtue - only other people on Justice.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As they've said many times before, closed beta helps them get things fixed better and faster. Rather than having a few thousand people on who just want to play, they have a smaller number who are actually interested in testing and helping make it better. Besides, it's not like it will stay closed all the way until release. You'll have your chance to try things out sooner or later.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because everyone in beta is a good tester, amirite? There are testers who might log in a few times just to keep themselves eligible for betas (and keep getting invited), and at any rate, logging in a few times to fiddle around with things isn't really testing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because, after all, NOBODY can do anything in casual testing that might bring out a bug ("Hey, why do I keep crashing after placing that Arachnos flyer?")

Nope, the only worthwhile testers are the ones that can spend 20 hours a day at it!

*snort*

[/ QUOTE ]
You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now turn away from the mirror.

[ QUOTE ]
Hey folks,

Just reading up on the Issue 14 update just released, I saw this rather bold statement up top:

"The First MMORPG to Offer User Created Content!"

Well, I don't know about NCSoft's knowledge of the MMORPG market but I beg to differ: there are, and have been, MMORPGs with large followings of players with user-created content. From my own experience: Try, for example, Neverwinter Nights!


[/ QUOTE ]

Neverwinter Nights is not an MMO.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, your playerbase is by and large pretty mature. Telling everyone "Yes, you will be able to buy Pool A,BC,D,E and Purple Recipes as well as Randoms at the Ticket Vendor", and then at some later date deciding you don't want C and D in there, wouldn't cause the kind of chaos you seem to think it would. Especially if you just plainly stated that you use that information at your own risk, that it could change, many of us are adults here and can quite easily deal with that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Experience has demonstartated that many of us aren't that mature. Whenever the devs announce something with the caveat: It may change, and it does... well... there's alota screaming. I too would like the information, but I can accept a position where in it's better to insulate oneself from possible fallout as long as possible.

In a few weeks Beta will open up (hopefully) and we'll have all the info we need (with the standard caveats). We're just gonna have to ride out the storm of people playing havoc with the market

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like an example of this experience that has shown us. As far as I can tell none exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Skills system. Which got morphed into Inventions.
City Vault.
Badges.
Cathedral of Pain.

Skimming, so if I missed this, my apologies.

Can we set the mission *start* point elsewhere?

For instance, you pick a Council map - but start the player in one of the cells?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heres another interview, from Allakhazam, some nice insights and apparently the devs will be using the MA to make missions in the future (and that when they get new tools for it, they will be passed onto the players).

[/ QUOTE ]

So wait, if they start giving the playerbase 100% content and creative control, then what will be the reason for us to pay $14.95?

[/ QUOTE ]

Beeeecause, oh, maybe, THEY are still creating content?
Because without access to the servers, you can't play *any* content at all?

They are not "giving the playerbase 100% content and creative control." The IP, the official storylines, etc. are still in NC's control. This is *something extra to play with.*

Got it?

Not happy with that... *shrug* save yourself fifteen bucks a month.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry guys I could care less about the MA so this issue so far holds no interest for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you had to post to say so.

Gotcha.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As they've said many times before, closed beta helps them get things fixed better and faster. Rather than having a few thousand people on who just want to play, they have a smaller number who are actually interested in testing and helping make it better. Besides, it's not like it will stay closed all the way until release. You'll have your chance to try things out sooner or later.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because everyone in beta is a good tester, amirite? There are testers who might log in a few times just to keep themselves eligible for betas (and keep getting invited), and at any rate, logging in a few times to fiddle around with things isn't really testing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because, after all, NOBODY can do anything in casual testing that might bring out a bug ("Hey, why do I keep crashing after placing that Arachnos flyer?")

Nope, the only worthwhile testers are the ones that can spend 20 hours a day at it!

*snort*