Memphis_Bill

Move one of them, then. Move the Lore one down to Judgement, leave the Destiny alone - keep that bit of progression going on a (somewhat) steady pace.

Moving both, I don't think I agree with.

This seems... Maybe it's just the description that seems very roundabout. The vouchers are straightforward as far as being - well, essentially "You've emailed something to yourself." The certificates - how many can these possibly have, and do they count against the email limit? (Not that I've hit that, but I do know people who have an *awful* lot of email sent to themselves.)

Just sounds like taking ten steps to move over a foot. But it might be the description not clicking, or something technical, admittedly .

Not just you. Chrome, here, did much the same - video didn't stop, but I couldn't pause, etc. It was the "Create your own hero" ad (ironically enough) every single time.

What, do we have to explain EVERYTHING? Sheesh... See, if cross server teaming is introduced, then the value of the name token goes down by some value of pie. Pie, once you carry the three, is then replaced by cheesecake, which takes numerous fruit (and other) toppings. Of course, you then need to work off the cheesecake, which makes you tired - too tired to bother playing or, for that matter, going in to decide on a new name for the character. Since you're too tired, you dont' buy it - therefore, it ends up not being needed.

It's all in the cheesecake.

tl;dr version: Heck if I know why he said that.

I *believe* the point of the prices is to be high enough to prevent it being "overly used," but low enough to be attractive for occasional use. And they are much cheaper than most MMOs, TBH - with the occasional sale coming up to make them moreso.

I understand wanting them cheaper, but they're really not bad now - and I don't think right offhand that they'll get as low as you're asking.

Just focusing a bit on this.

First, is incarnate content "core" content? What are we using to determine if it is? What are we using to determine if *other* content is "core" content or not?

Are we putting Incarnate content in with task forces? Why? Are task forces "core" content? Why?

I'll also point out that, in instances where content (and I'm looking at story arcs, as opposed to task forces which require a team to even start - but don't, of course, block character progression) required a team - specifically "multiple glowie" missions - those were generally reworked. I think there are one or two left (the Nemesis ... whatever it is in Founders, with three or four devices to click simultaneously and... hmm.... I think that's the only one left, only one that comes to mind at least) and we as players were asked to /bug them so those blocks could be removed.

We've also had difficulty and boss/eb selectors put in, which directly affects "higher end" content such as the Hero's Hero arc and its soloability. Which, to me, weakens the argument that "higher end content does not have to be soloable." Even in a situation such as the Kronos Titan spawn, it's soloable. Meet it in mission, it must be defeated to proceed, but it's weaker. Get the world GM spawn and you can completely bypass it - it's optional. You don't need to do anything special to keep progressing solo.

Now, "Enhanced" content. Given I can only work with your terms and I don't believe you've gone so far as to give unambiguous descriptions of them - which, just like my descriptions, would really be subject to POV - I can only lump what I think you mean by it.

When I'm thinking "enhanced" content, I'm thinking mothership raids and items like the Statesman or Lord Recluse task forces. Again, it's purely optional. It exists alongside the regular content, the tourist trap alongside the highway essentially where you can go and hang out and be entertained for a while along your path, but if you ignore it, it really doesn't matter.

Now we come to Incarnate content. What is it, "enhanced" or "core?" All we have is that it's "endgame." Which is nothing but a term describing placement, really. Does its status as "endgame" content preclude it from being "core?"

Well, what's the overall goal? All the content we have that we can label "Incarnate" content is this:
- Five power unlocks
- Levels (tiers) within those unlocks
- Two (soon three) trials
- One soloable (sometimes with difficulty, but it is soloable without extreme builds) arc.

We get definite "levels" if we use a comparison to the 1-50 game. We gain XP to unlock an ability (with a chance to speed that by spending salvage and INF, as opposed to 1-50 using day job "help" to do so.) We select powers to fill those slots. Some even shift the "actual" level, inside or outside incarnate content.

By the sound of it, this matches the sort of character (or, if you want to strip away the RP aspect, possibly "avatar") progression. It's easily measurable - which we do in terms of XP, slots unlocked and the like.

Even looking at decided non-core activities - badging or marketeering, for instance - we have these ways of measuring progress, from simple counts (badging) to unlocks (market slots, salvage slots and the like) - but those I don't think anyone would argue are "core character progress." Personal goal progress? Sure. Core character progress? Not so much. Using them to argue about "perspective on what defines progress" really just obscures the issue.

Now, I'm going to make an assumption here, but I believe it's a pretty good one - if you collected, say, 100 people in the game and asked them, individually, "Has this character made progress?" giving them a set of examples of, oh, "Got more badges," "Unlocked marketing slots," "Went from level 30 to 31," "Hit 500 PVP rep," the only one you'd universally get an unqualified "yes" from is the one about getting from 30-31. Others might get some yesses, or qualified ("well, they got more badges, which is what they want" - but that "they" would be the *player,* not the character, after all.)

Now if you add "Unlocked Lore" and "Built/slotted for War Works" in there, I'm fairly certain you'd get a universal, unambiguous acknowledgement of that - at the very least of the unlock, as getting tiers or variants of a power is more a personal goal - as progress.

*To me,* that makes it a core system. Yes, tacked on as the label "endgame," but it's doing much the same thing as the 1-50 without adding more direct levels (level shifts aside.) The core system itself depends on content (arcs, paper missions, task forces, iTrials) to allow the character to progress.

Would you say that's fair? That that *is* different from IOs, task forces, badges, costumes and the other bits you mentioned? Again, I don't require IOs to make that - again using the borrowed term - *core* progress. I need XP which unlocks abilities and slots... into which I can *put* those IOs, admittedly, but the IOs are a bonus, not "core" progress. I can use task/strike forces to gain XP, but I don't need to.

The argument here is one of content. That we don't have those paths. Content hangs off that core system. Content is what allows us to make that progress. Whether "enhanced" content (and I'm lumping task forces and the like in there) or basic (missions, story arcs, etc.) it all allows us to progress along that basic ladder dragging us from 1-50 (or along the Incarnate trees.)

If you want to claim this is *not* a unique situation - in this case, where content that is team-only is the only way to make that basic progress, in this case in the "levels that are not levels" Incarnate framework - I'd like for you to point out where, from 1-50, we've ever *had* to team in the past, with no other option, to attain a further level (the gain of XP which allows an unlock of a power or set of slots with, from 1-50, a numerical designator.)

Now, I haven't been here since launch - *only* since issue 3 - but I don't recall that ever happening, or in the instances *inside a mission arc* where it happens, it hasn't been changed (as pointed out previously.)

I can point out other barriers that have come up, yes, but these - if you will - have been on "branches," as opposed to the leveling "trunk." Such as having to do a Patron arc to unlock Patron power pools, versus the earlier format of "Hit 41, have APP become available." Those were changed (insofar as having APPs available and being able to respec your patron) and that experiment is sitting off to the side, seeming rather forgotten - but that's the closest example I can think of to having something block progress (and that only from the requirement of running a specific arc to unlock a pool, not being unsoloable.)

Incarnate content, other than Alpha, *is* in a unique position - and I'd argue that Alpha, by means of being unlockable with IXP (via teaming) *as well as* the Mender Ramiel (soloable) arc, has been brought in line with the rest of the game. And with the mention - aside from this still rather head-scratching "alpha voucher" - of future content which *will* be soloable, the uniqueness comes more to the fact that there's a lag between the release of both paths, with the team *only* component coming first.

Here's the problem I have with *that* analogy.

No content is gated behind having IOs, slotted or not - or even invented. No content is gated behind having to posess HOs (or Titan/Hydra-Os.) No auras are. No costume pieces are. (Admittedly. there are costume *recipes,* but you don't need to have, say, five full IO sets before you can even look at them. Slightly different.)

The closest example would perhaps be respec trials - but only three (total) respecs are locked behind them, and there are so many other ways to respec (from dual/triple builds to recipes to freespecs) that it's a non-issue.

Now, we do have content locked behind teaming requirements - TFs/SFs. However, you can still get your character from 1-50, gaining slots, levels and powers without ever running them.

... until you hit iTrials. The alpha slot is already soloable, and I mean fully soloable - you can unlock it, then go out and do missions, street sweep, whatever and get the shards to fill that slot. Slower if you do that? Sure. But doable. After that, however - the Incarnate system is *locked* to you. That means the current trials (which, admittedly, if you're soloing you're not looking at) and - and this is what worries me somewhat - any future content they may have that requires those powers. Will we see another Tin mage where you walk into a zone with unfilled Alpha (or any other slot) and find yourself sitting at -4 or with some other penalty? Or, for that matter, be allowed in?

Now, they HAVE somewhat mentioned "other incarnate content." If these are arcs/contacts/etc - well, I'm sure several would like clarification on that, but if so, then there are some decent chips in the wall. We'd have to see what progression is really *like,* of course, but it'd be something. But at this point, there is a definite wall to character progression (meaning gaining and improving powers, much like you do 1-50) outside of teaming.

To kind of put it another way - IOs and the like make your character "wider," but don't move it forward (progress.) New powers, new slots - including the Incarnate ones - make your character "taller." Without teaming, there's a limit to how tall you can get. And that certainly *is* a change. (But again - they've talked about actually being able to get solo content for it, so file under "coming soon (tm)" for something other than the rather silly Alpha unlock voucher.)

I'd have preferred to have the END draining abilities of enemies removed/nerfed from the lower levels, which was more of an issue, IMHO. Having someone pre-20 (IE, guaranteed not to have stamina) hit with multiple Clockwork or Mu blasts was just wrong - and given it's a -recov as well, no amount of END reduction did much (especially pre-SO levels.) But that ship has sailed.

Then again, it's balanced (there's that word again) by *having* more powers to select... thus having more stuff burning END earlier and harder.

(And grammar nitpick - "wary," not weary, unless it's made you tired as opposed to cautious. )

There's also something called "The rest of the game." No, they don't need to balance around the endgame. I don't want my level 15 controller balanced around level 50+3 buffs they may never see, having to face ridiculous -def, -recharge, +tohit on enemies and the like. They need to *balance* the endgame, yes - and I still think it'd be best to have the powers have strength/timing/recharge X when outside the trials, and be stronger inside "Incarnate Content." We know they can flag it that way - it'd keep them from trivializing the rest of the content (45+ at least, but that's not insignificant.)

I tend to throw hearts (and livers, and spleens, or whatever else is at hand) at him.

My thoughts on this really echo Aett's. One thing I've been somewhat concerned about looking at the whole Incarnate bit is power creep and balance.

I'd really like to hear the dev thoughts on this - I mean, they're saying "QOL," but are they also saying "There's so much def available via IOs it doesn't matter this is AOE?" Is it actually depreciating the sets?

If so, does the "Game not changed for IOs" no longer hold true and are they now actually becoming required? I've had friends say (and I somewhat agree) that it's like Statesman's "We arent' changing powers again!" just before ED was introduced - kind of "lawyering" it in being true to the words but not to the spirit, as newer enemies seem designed with the thought players will have a lot of IO'd up defense/recharge/etc.

If not... and yes, I know I sound somewhat like this - when are the devs going to look at the overall power level and go "woah," then hit us with another global nerf in six months or a year? I don't think the game could weather a hit like that - yes, we weathered ED/GDN, but we *also* had a spike in subs thanks to COV and made up the population.

Nutshell version - I worry about the devs losing sight of long-term viability for the sake of "oh, cool."

Indeed. Nice change.

And your point is?

People kept running Hami when it was an absolute slideshow. When "playing" Hami meant "Get the leader targeted, put on follow, and put some power on auto, because you're not going to be doing it yourself in your 5 seconds per frame Hami raid." People kept running the ITF despite the lag. People keep doing Rikti raids despite lag.

What makes you say, other than wanting a strawman about people quitting, that lag makes people avoid anything? They complain, yes, and properly so.

<badfrenchaccent> Nao go away, or I shall quote you a second time!</badfrenchaccent>
.... wait, that is a second time. I know how to fix this.
/launches cow

And I just quoted this one.

Cheese.

It all comes down to the cheese.

*But* as those are dying, the MM's "effective HP" and resistance are also going down - so as he dies, he starts dying *faster," and loses tools to prevent it.

If either of them get hit, they can take a green or get healed, true. Plus, blasters *do* have tools to control aggro - from the secondary/T1, generally an immobilize, among all sets, to other abilities in individual sets - caltrops, tasers, soft controls like knockback and hard controls in the form of holds. All of which, by the way, are under the *direct* control of the blaster. If he wants something held, he uses a hold. He doesn't have to hope something's AI decides to cycle through to it.

However, the blaster does not drop from 1606 max HP to 1200. The MM does lose that "effective" max HP whenever a henchman dies.

When a blaster misses, he just misses. He doesn't lose his max HP. He doesn't lose capability (most T2 pets, often a T1 pet at level 18.) He doesn't lose resistance (bodyguard, for this and the "max" HP.) And he doesnt' have to spend END just to get that capability back. He still HAS the capability and can use it immediately (barring recharge.)

... assuming he can keep aggro on him instead of his pets, and can keep his pets alive. One AOE can drop that "effective" health dramatically.