Markus

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LOL I dont think thats a fair comparison, but lets say he did go and discover he was facing a howitzer, he then has the choice, do I yield or give it a go.

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But he's already agreed to the bout, and the first thing he knew of the howitzer's existence would be when it hit him. Game over, man, game over.

See what I'm driving at? Without some way to either disable HOs temporarily or detect their presence in advance of agreeing to a fight, the first thing you notice will be the ungodly amounts of damage you are taking, following which it's too *late* to choose not to go through with it.

Yes, I admit that's a worst-case scenario, and the majority of PvPers won't have a full gun case full of HOs, but I think you see my point.

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Yes I see your point. But So what?
Who cares if you go into a fight and lose right away?
You learned at least 2 things, 1 this guy is slotting HO's, and
2, how long you can last unprepared against it.
Now you have the choice to chalenge him again, only better prepared, or move on to someone elase.
easy.

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I was just talking to my brother about this (he is a AAA rated competitive fencer) And he changed my mind, If your going to go into competitions, you do have to take a risk.

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Of course you do. That's the thrill of it.

But there's also the point that you should be able to choose how MUCH risk you are willing to face. Your brother doesn't go into fencing bouts on the understanding that his opponent might have a howitzer.

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LOL I dont think thats a fair comparison, but lets say he did go and discover he was facing a howitzer, he then has the choice, do I yield or give it a go. No one is forcing him to choose one way or the other. Taking the risk of facing a superior opponent is also part of the chalenge and fun

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at best they will improve an existing enh by 15% thats enough for flavor but thats it.

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O_O


sir, with respect - please check your facts!

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I was just looking at individual Dam and not taking into accout the 12 slotting issue. But even including that and all the numbers I've seen, I dont think it warrants this much panic. However, I have fully sloted (almost) and non slotted toons on test, and my opinion of this whole situation may change depending on how bad/good the results are.

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And if it exemplared down to my level and was decked out in Hamidon Enhancements I still wouldnt have been able to do anything to it.

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Uhm do you even have a Hami-o? Cause you seem to think they are equivilant to a +15 lv adjustment and they are not. at best they will improve an existing enh by 15% thats enough for flavor but thats it. It certainly is not the be all and end all, unless you have absolutly no skill, in which case you shouldn't be PvPing anyway.

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Ayone can beat anyone else if you use the right tactics. It may be harder in some cases but it's still possible.

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Actually, no you can't. This glass is half full nonsense always falls flat in the face of hard reality.

I bring up again an instance when I came across a remnant in steel canyon of somone's ambush, a tree of life which was around 15 or so levels above me. NO MATTER WHAT I DID, when I eventually managed to land a blow it healed it in a second.

This is what I fear from Hamidon equipped players.

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But now having learned from your "experiences" you can beat them right?

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If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not.

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This is an Arena we're talking about, not a street brawl. These fights are *arranged*.

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It's a risk.

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So are you saying that in order to find out who has Hami-Os, so that we can choose not to fight them, we'll have to fight them first?

That seems a little bit circular to me.

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Yeah I guess I'm stuck there huh. It's difficult for me to argue because I would never turn down a chalenge so I don't know what all the criteria are to turning one down, the only way I could see someone turning down a fight would be if they had already fought them and felt they hadn't learned enough to beat them yet.

But I see your point, I would prefer no knoledge of your opponent until you learn it for yourself, but then you're right, how could people who want to be exempt from fighting the Hami-O ridden, know for sure?
Maybe more options?
like being able to choose to have "blind" fights for people who want the challenge, and then you can choose some kind of data screen of your opponent that shows his kills, slotting, powers etc. if you dont both choose the "blind" option?

Just an idea

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I was just talking to my brother about this (he is a AAA rated competitive fencer) And he changed my mind, If your going to go into competitions, you do have to take a risk. If you want to find out if your good enough to take someone, you have to try it. You may lose and it may be because he has more accolades or a better powerset or class or maybe because he has Hamio's, but if you dont want to risk it dont fight. If you do then it shouldn't matter what he's equipped with. Your putting your best against his. If he's worked harder on his toon than you he'll have an edge. You will have to try that much harder. Ayone can beat anyone else if you use the right tactics. It may be harder in some cases but it's still possible.

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The true spirit of competition also demands that fights are held between people of similar 'weight'. That's why we have weight classes instead of skill classes.


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Lastly. No one is making you compete against me or anyone else with Hami-os. So if you dont want to have the chalenge, don't fight against them.

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That is indeed an equally viable solution, but it does mean introducing some way of TELLING that a prospective opponent has Hami-Os. As you are no doubt aware, you can't currently do that.

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By pulling out small quotes of my statement you missed what I was saying overall. The Aikido example is perfect because in Akido we often have to fight against people whao are better armed, more skilled or just more than one opponent. These are all things that test you and your abilities. Is it "fair"? No. But nothing in life is. I would rather true variety in strength and skill to test myself against, rather than some homoginized version.
I also hope you can have 2, 3, + vs 1 in the arena. Can you imagine the bragging rights of someone who manages to beat 3 opponents at once?

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Nice way to sidestep the last question she put to you. I'll ask it again, since you seem to have missed it: How would I know whether an opponent has HOs or not? I can't see their enhancement screen. I could ask them, but they could lie. Sure, after fighting them once and never seeing their damage drop below 400%, I might have some indication. But what if they use their HOs more subtly? For example, a tanker or scrapper can get a good bit of extra juice out of their character by 4 slotting hasten and several of their defensive powers, then reapplying those slots to other powers.Done right, you could six slot 1-2 additional attack powers with the other player being none the wiser.

Regardless of whether you want HOs in the arena unaltered or you want a switch to turn them on and off (turning them into SOs) or you want to have them always turned off, can you honestly deny a need for full, or at least useful partial disclosure? I don't need to know what you've got slotted where, but I should be able to glance at your info screen and see "X HOs/Y SOs/Z DOs/W Trainings" before I choose to fight you or not. It gives me both knowledge of your true weight class and some insight into your skill level.

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Sry dude I didn't "avoid" the question, I just didn't see how it is relevant.
If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not. It's a risk. Personaly if I lost I would want another shot at you, but others can choose to never fight you again. It's up to them. Surprise is just as much of an advantage as enhancements. If anything I would argue that we shouldn't be allowed to see what powers our opponents have so that we are forced to compete blindly, be forced to adapt to new situaitions and can learn from our experiences.

I think there is a missconception here. When I go to get slotted with hamio's It's not to be better than others so that I can breeze through them. I get them to make my toon as good as he can possibly be, to strive for the perfect weapon. Then I can use my tactics to the best of my ability, and hopefuly the environment as well. This way I know I'm giving it my all agaisnt everyone else. I want everyone to try there best and use every edge they can get. But I want them to have to earn those advantages the same way I did, otherwise it was wasted effort on my part.

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So you would be okay with someone coming into a sporting competition and entering themselves in the amateur events even tho he had competed professionally before? Because, largely, that's what having opponents compete without either the ability to turn off HOs (which you seem in favor of) or the ability to see the number of HOs a given player has (not their slot placement, just the number) would turn into.

I have a level 50 and several other lowbies. I've watched a Hami raid, briefly, and decided that I wanted to do something more fun (to me) with my limited time in the game. I've got full-time work and school, so spending two hours a night in a slideshow just doesn't do it for me. I don't, therefore, have HOs. That's fine. Until the devs either allow them to be sold by vendors or dropped from high end task forces, I probably won't ever have more than 1 or 2 in any of my characters. I would easily fall into the "amateur" class in the example above. You, having spent hundreds of hours developing the Hamidon strategy and raiding night after night, would fall into the "pro" class. If you have been sincere about your wish to compete against challenging opponents, you'd never fight me: I might have the skills to take you on, but I don't have the enhancements. As I'm sure you're aware, when two equally skilled opponents come up against each other, the better conditioned one almost always wins. That's fine, too. But there are folks out there, especially folks that have enough free time to both raid Hami and gank amateurs, that would be perfectly happy to take their fully slotted HO characters and blatantly lie when asked the question, "Are you HO specced? At all?"

When the arenas come, I don't see myself having any more time to spend on PvP than I do on PvE. In fact, I'll probably have less, since I'll be splitting my time between both aspects of the game. And without a way to determine whether a match is going to be a waste of my time before I start playing, that's even more of it down the drain. THAT's why I want to know how many HOs an opponent has.

You may take this whole arena competition as some Bushido warrior thing, but it's just a game to me. I want to play a game, and I want it to be as completely grief-free as possible. I don't know what's necessary to make that happen. there have been several suggestions, including a way to turn off/tone down HOs as an option and the ability to see the number of HOs a given player has. I think perhaps the best way to do it might be to make the disclosure voluntary. If a player doesn't want to show how many they've got, as you don't, they can turn it off for themselves. That would act as a signifier to many players: either you take the game very seriously, in which case you're probably not worth fighting on the skill side alone, except for other extremely serious players, or you're a griefer and not worth fighting for the obvious reasons.

You said yourself, more options are always good. This would be a good option for the vast bulk of players in a game that was advertised as a game for casual players, yet which has phat lewt obtainable only through raids at the high end.

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I'm not going to dissagree with anything you wrote (though in answer to your question, no I dont see anything wrong with profesionals playing amateur sports, but you will notice that very few do because of the lack of challenge) But I will make this comment: Do you realy think you as a self proclaimed amateur, who has spent less than 1/4 of the amount of time I've spent playing, are on equal footing? wouldn't someone who practices something everyday, out match someone who doesn't?
I have an unenhanced toon on test named Markus V8.3 and I would love to test your "equal footing" theory.

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If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not.

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This is an Arena we're talking about, not a street brawl. These fights are *arranged*.

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It's a risk.

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So are you saying that in order to find out who has Hami-Os, so that we can choose not to fight them, we'll have to fight them first?

That seems a little bit circular to me.

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Yeah I guess I'm stuck there huh. It's difficult for me to argue because I would never turn down a chalenge so I don't know what all the criteria are to turning one down, the only way I could see someone turning down a fight would be if they had already fought them and felt they hadn't learned enough to beat them yet.

But I see your point, I would prefer no knoledge of your opponent until you learn it for yourself, but then you're right, how could people who want to be exempt from fighting the Hami-O ridden, know for sure?
Maybe more options?
like being able to choose to have "blind" fights for people who want the challenge, and then you can choose some kind of data screen of your opponent that shows his kills, slotting, powers etc. if you dont both choose the "blind" option?

Just an idea

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The true spirit of competition also demands that fights are held between people of similar 'weight'. That's why we have weight classes instead of skill classes.


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Lastly. No one is making you compete against me or anyone else with Hami-os. So if you dont want to have the chalenge, don't fight against them.

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That is indeed an equally viable solution, but it does mean introducing some way of TELLING that a prospective opponent has Hami-Os. As you are no doubt aware, you can't currently do that.

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By pulling out small quotes of my statement you missed what I was saying overall. The Aikido example is perfect because in Akido we often have to fight against people whao are better armed, more skilled or just more than one opponent. These are all things that test you and your abilities. Is it "fair"? No. But nothing in life is. I would rather true variety in strength and skill to test myself against, rather than some homoginized version.
I also hope you can have 2, 3, + vs 1 in the arena. Can you imagine the bragging rights of someone who manages to beat 3 opponents at once?

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Nice way to sidestep the last question she put to you. I'll ask it again, since you seem to have missed it: How would I know whether an opponent has HOs or not? I can't see their enhancement screen. I could ask them, but they could lie. Sure, after fighting them once and never seeing their damage drop below 400%, I might have some indication. But what if they use their HOs more subtly? For example, a tanker or scrapper can get a good bit of extra juice out of their character by 4 slotting hasten and several of their defensive powers, then reapplying those slots to other powers.Done right, you could six slot 1-2 additional attack powers with the other player being none the wiser.

Regardless of whether you want HOs in the arena unaltered or you want a switch to turn them on and off (turning them into SOs) or you want to have them always turned off, can you honestly deny a need for full, or at least useful partial disclosure? I don't need to know what you've got slotted where, but I should be able to glance at your info screen and see "X HOs/Y SOs/Z DOs/W Trainings" before I choose to fight you or not. It gives me both knowledge of your true weight class and some insight into your skill level.

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Sry dude I didn't "avoid" the question, I just didn't see how it is relevant.
If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not. It's a risk. Personaly if I lost I would want another shot at you, but others can choose to never fight you again. It's up to them. Surprise is just as much of an advantage as enhancements. If anything I would argue that we shouldn't be allowed to see what powers our opponents have so that we are forced to compete blindly, be forced to adapt to new situaitions and can learn from our experiences.

I think there is a missconception here. When I go to get slotted with hamio's It's not to be better than others so that I can breeze through them. I get them to make my toon as good as he can possibly be, to strive for the perfect weapon. Then I can use my tactics to the best of my ability, and hopefuly the environment as well. This way I know I'm giving it my all agaisnt everyone else. I want everyone to try there best and use every edge they can get. But I want them to have to earn those advantages the same way I did, otherwise it was wasted effort on my part.

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Everyone keeps talking about Hamidons and using skill in the same breath.

But in all honesty the more Hamidons you have the less skill you need. Its actually a buffer for LACK of skill.

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Th notion that Hami-o's are some kind of krutch is ridiculous. They are another tool that is available to everyone. It may be a detriment to some through overconfidence. Pld, and inexperienced characters who think having them will even them out with experienced tactical players are sorely mistaken.

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By pulling out small quotes of my statement you missed what I was saying overall. The Aikido example is perfect because in Akido we often have to fight against people whao are better armed, more skilled or just more than one opponent.

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I understand this. What I have evidently failed to get across is that skill is the only one of these advantages that cannot be set aside. In the Arena, you can willingly give up any advantage whatsoever in order to compete with a foe on their level, EXCEPT a HO. You can set aside your higher level, your travel powers, your temporary powers - but not your HOs.

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I would rather true variety in strength and skill to test myself against, rather than some homoginized version.

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Absolutely. And when I have a pile of HOs of my own, I want to be able to disable them temporarily in order to face opponents with only my skills to help me. I can give up any other advantage I have - it seems odd not to let me give up my enhancements.

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It seems, what you're arguing for is an extra option. So long as it is an option, and you can choose whether to allow them or not I guess I can agree to that. More options are always better.

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I see where your going with this, and you almost had me convinced, but then I thought If I met you at one of my Aikido competitions (or anyone else) I would not pretend to be worse than I am in order for you to have a good chance.

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Since that's exactly what happens in the Arena with auto-exemplaring down to your opponent's level, your Aikido analogy doesn't really work.

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I see no reason to throw the fight.

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Not asking you to. If you have a considerable advantage over me that is NOT skill based, whether it's levels, enhancements or whatever, then there are two ways we can proceed. Either we don't fight at all because we're not in the same league, or we fight in an artificially constrained environment that terporarily puts us on a more even footing.

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That is the true spirit of competition.

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The true spirit of competition also demands that fights are held between people of similar 'weight'. That's why we have weight classes instead of skill classes.

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Lastly. No one is making you compete against me or anyone else with Hami-os. So if you dont want to have the chalenge, don't fight against them.

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That is indeed an equally viable solution, but it does mean introducing some way of TELLING that a prospective opponent has Hami-Os. As you are no doubt aware, you can't currently do that.

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By pulling out small quotes of my statement you missed what I was saying overall. The Aikido example is perfect because in Akido we often have to fight against people whao are better armed, more skilled or just more than one opponent. These are all things that test you and your abilities. Is it "fair"? No. But nothing in life is. I would rather true variety in strength and skill to test myself against, rather than some homoginized version.
I also hope you can have 2, 3, + vs 1 in the arena. Can you imagine the bragging rights of someone who manages to beat 3 opponents at once?

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Yes there is reason to believe this... the way it currently workes is that an SO gives yo a 33% boost in that ability a hammy o will boost by 50% if a SO would normally buff by 20% then the HO buffs by 30% Or anothe way of looking at it is it is like slotting a SO and a DO in the same slot for howerever many things it affects.

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But that doesn't explain why flight speed is reduced with the speed/end Hamio. I didn't test it but things certainly seem to take longer. I went from 3 ++so's to 3 hamio's and I seem to have slowed down a lot. could this be a bug?

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Actualy the Devs said that they were trying to keep everything from PvE the same as PvP, at least as much as possible. So knowing that it is understandable why people would assume that there "reward" would be the same (or at least as close to the PvE game as possible) in PvP.

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What happens when you *assume*?

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slight bonus over the casual player,

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Absurd. The bonus isn't fixed - it can be anything from one Hami-O to a whole screen full.

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If you work harder than me and make more money, get promoted quicker, and get more perks than me, I wont get our boss to demote you because I'm not willing to work as hard as you.

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No, but you wouldn't pretend to be in the same employment bracket, either. Anyone looking at both of us would be able to tell that you were a sales clerk and I was a company partner.

We're not talking about demotion, we're talking about meeting each other on a TEMPORARY level playing field. I don't WANT you to have to give up your HOs, any more than I WANT to give up my 44 levels of experience. I just want you to be able to turn them off temporarily, so we can pretend to be on an equal footing for the sake of the fight - just the same as if I'd exemplared down to fight a level 20.

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I see where your going with this, and you almost had me convinced, but then I thought If I met you at one of my Aikido competitions (or anyone else) I would not pretend to be worse than I am in order for you to have a good chance.
I always give 110% to every opponent. It would be disrespectful not to. I worked hard to get to where I am both in power and skill lv in CoH. I see no reason to throw the fight. I will instead use every power and stength I have in order to win and I will expect the same from you.
That is the true spirit of competition.

Before you start talking about belts and lvs, In aikido (at least my club) there are no belts, you can chalenge anyone in the competition and in fact you learn a great deal more from those who have more experience, or when doing unarmed vs armed fighting or even 1 vs many.

Lastly. No one is making you compete against me or anyone else with Hami-os. So if you dont want to have the chalenge, don't fight against them.

Edit: I just saw your quote so I added a second one for you. Also you should visit this link: http://www.wavsite.com/television.asp

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There's something that renders this entire conversation completely irelevant. I know what it is, but I'm not about to give it away in the hopes of jinxing PvP for myself. I have no HO's myself, but i'm not worried about those who do. Anyone care to take a guess why?

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I have no Idea why, but your words intrigue me, please... do tell.

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Because PvP is based on player consent, If you don't want to fight someone, you don't have to.
Simple as that.
Can I have 5 stars?

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The reduction of reward on investment is the lowered effectiveness of an enhancement when in a PVP fight.

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If anyone had actually been *promised* the reward of a fully effective HO in PVP for tackling Hamidon, then you might have a point. However, no such promise was ever made. The effectiveness of enhancements in PvP is *in addition to* their effectiveness in PvE. Their effectiveness in PvE - the 'reward' you actually get for the 'risk' - is completely unchanged.

So, while your *perception* of the reward's worth (based on your own assumptions) may have changed, its intrinsic value has not.

Issue 4 isn't even on Test yet. The Devs have said that any number of things could change. There are no guarantees that they won't, for example, just cancel the effectiveness of *all* enhancements and say 'stuff it'.

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Actualy the Devs said that they were trying to keep everything from PvE the same as PvP, at least as much as possible. So knowing that it is understandable why people would assume that there "reward" would be the same (or at least as close to the PvE game as possible) in PvP.

What it comes down to is the dedicated players (who worked for any edge they have by researching the game, being involved in the community, and putting time in above other hobbies) have a slight bonus over the casual player, and even then its only noticeable at 45+ and then only when competing in one aspect of the game.
Get over it.
If you work harder than me and make more money, get promoted quicker, and get more perks than me, I wont get our boss to demote you because I'm not willing to work as hard as you.

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I’m sorry but ‘fair’ doesn’t exist. It doesn’t exist in real life and it doesn’t exist in this game.

To be ‘fair’ you’d have to only PvP against someone with the exact same build, same connection speed, same game knowledge, same experiences, same computer speed, etc. Not going to happen is it? Just looking at builds alone I’d like you to find 2 EXACTLY the same, you’d be hard pressed and I doubt you could. Even min/max builds have player preference differences.

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Just because there are differences among ATs and builds doesn't mean that putting in a mechanism to increase the effectiveness of characters by 100% or 200% is a good idea. No given fight will be entirely balanced or "fair", but they will be mostly close with known counters.

The differences between a largely HO'd character and a non-HO'd character will have no counter.

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From reading all these threads it seems to me that the players that don’t have HO’s have expressed their self perceived inadequacy into some type of ‘lack of fun’ versus those players that do. Instead of doing something in-game about this they have decided to reach out to the dev’s and cry 'nerf' for a false notion of fairness. “They earned it, it’s not fair that I won’t/can’t, take it way from them!”

So being ‘fair’ isn’t about HO’s, it’s about making other players, that can put the time and effort into their build, as miserable as them. No thanks.

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The difference between HO'd and non-HO'd characters is that the HO'd characters chose to spend large amounts of time watching a slide show, occasionally pressing a key, in hopes of gaining an enhancement that would allow them to "gank" the "suckers" who choose not to spend their time in such a meaningless, boring manner. Now HO'd characters are angry about the suggestion that an option be created to allow heros to fight on an even playing field.

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If you think That planning and successfully coming up with a way to take down Hami was easy you are dead wrong. On Justice Redemption, and specifically Frostigy put tons of effort in research and testing as well as others. It was hard work, and it payed off. worse is trying to get 150 people organized.

Yes we have it down to a science now, and yes it can be done relatively easily, but only because of the hard work we put into it at the start. And we're still taking on all new comers and sharing our experience and knowledge in order to allow everyone a "fair" chance to try it.

If you want to be as good as people who have Hamio's sacrifice the time and effort to get them, don't take away what we've earned.
My Girl Friend would be soooo pissed if all those missed dinners, and falling asleep without me didn't at least amount to something.

bump

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The answer to that final question is "To fill in the gaps where other AT's are missing" and my final assessment is that if the proper AT is not present to fill that role, then a Kheld will have to "suffice". This represents an issue, in my mind, that detracts from the appeal of having that AT in the team. If you want a role filled, you want the right AT to fill it. Khelds will do in a pinch, but we all know that if this was a stand alone, single player game where you had to assemble a team that the average person would drop the kheld the second the right team member became available to round out the team properly and that the only reason you'd want to keep one around is if the team was already balanced.

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I have never seen or herd of anyone ditching 1 player that is already on a team in favor of a better AT. Nor would I want to play with those types.
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So what role does a Kheldian fill? Again, I say, they may fit the hole, but they don't fit the role.



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Wouldn't it suck if everyone played cimmerian fist version 1,2,3,4,5.......


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Y'mean like some people who play the same character over and over and over and over in different incarnations but they're really all the same character? Yah, that would kinda suck, I find it hard to imagine how that could be fun or what kind of imaginative sink hole that person may be.


EDITED FOR SPEELING.

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Actually what I meant was many people playing the same Ats with the same powers would be dull

I think having an intricate background story to your character that delves into a long history of former characters only enriches and improves the roll playing experience of the character.
But I do know what you mean about unimaginative background stories. I heard that there's some Sumerian out there who riped off Conan for his background story..


{Want to come over and play cards? we're having a poker night starting at 9ish...Josh will be here.}

"People in glass houses shouldn't THROW stones. They probably should have used them as a building material."

I've been re-reading this thread and it appears to me that you've been issuing arguments as to why you think the Kheldians are not good. thats cool, that's what the boards are here for. But the trend as you progress through the threads is that you issue an argument and someone refutes it so you focus more and more on the things you dislike and why. Also cool. But what reading this thread has shown me is that you are in the minority with your dislikes of this EAT. So don't play them. No one will force you to play the Khelds. Many people like the way they are now. So I think your best bet is to wait and hope for new more focused EAT's and perhaps you'll find something better suited to your needs. (Like say a ranger type martial arts guy with paired short swords, only one of them can be thrown to vorpal strike people with no attack roll............ )

I can only say that, I for one can't wait for any and all new ats epic or otherwise. I know I may not like them all but I like playing a game with so much variety. It sux that we can't enjoy the 1st Epic at that came out because it doesn't suit our play style, But isn't it great that others do like it. Wouldn't it suck if everyone played cimmerian fist version 1,2,3,4,5.......

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"If you can't find the right AT, get a kheld" and that's a poor attitude to have about a superhero's function in a team.

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I agree so why are you promoting it?

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Why?

Well.... why would they? It makes no sense. If I have an unbalanced team, I'm going to choose the AT for the role that's missing. If I already have a balanced team, why would I choose to unbalance it? So, if the only time I'm picking a Kheld over another AT is because I want to increase the size of the team without unbalancing it, then that precludes the idea that the only role that Kheld is filling is as a plug.

All this tells me is that Khelds are there as filler.

"Man, he doesn't really do anything that we can't do ourselves, but he sure is pretty!"

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Or maybe he's a cool roll player and will enhance the game experience without worrying about the numbers, or maybe he's just a fun guy to play with and we want him on our team, or maybe he's part of your super group and you want him to be on your team.
I mean Batman can't do anything super, but JLA always want him around cause he's cool.
Aside from those reasons, a jack of all trades is a necessary roll in a group. Otherwise why would the Bard class ever have been invented?
The biggest benefit to playing a jack of all trades is that you get asked to participate in groups more often because your roll is not specific. Why try to get a kheld for a blaster when you have one? Well you don't but maybe he can fill that tank roll your missing because no tanks are on right now. Khelds are always welcome in groups. "oh crap our blasters down, Kheld go help the tank while I rez him".......

Thats why.

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Or how about this... your chronically alt-aholic friend logs on and wants to play with you, and today, she's playing her tanker. Yesterday it was her defender, and tomorrow she's wanting to run her scrapper through the respec trial with you. No problem. Whatever she brings out, you can make an effective duo with her.

In a perfect world, you'd always have the perfect archetype for the job, but in reality, that's not how the game is played.

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I only quoted part because to quote it all seems excessive.

What you're saying may be true, but you're missing someting crucial. A kheld only hits baseline with the other AT's when there's three other non khelds in the group. That means that for you to be equally effective as any other AT you have to be a member of a team of four. So, right away, duoing is going to go less favourably with a kheld than with the proper AT because he's less effective by about 20%.

Secondly, you've only shined the light from the other direction on my point. The real meat of the matter is that for all the examples that you've given, the kheld is still the fallback guy. He's the "yah, well, it'll have to do" guy. Even in the examples you're giving the khelds become the less effective, red-haired stepchild of the AT's that is replacing the AT that up and vanished.

My point in all of this, in this post and in my other posts on this thread is the following;

Jack has said, on multiple occasions, everytime there's an opportunity to do so that he wants the players to feel like a superhero. He's made changes to the game to further enforce that (re: The Orenbaga Portal Missions with the ever continuing Behemoth spawns).

And yet, with Kheldians, the best you can hope for is a second rate replacement for the AT that the team is missing... and even then! Only if there are three or more non khelds in the team. So... how is this superhero?

As I said before, seems to me that a Kheldian is nothign more than the superhero equivalent of a substitute teacher.

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Well 1st off they are changing it so Kheld start at the same base as everyone else. So the 1st part of the argument is moot. As for the 2nd part, there are lot's of superheroes in comics who are the "fall back" guy, or the 2nd choice. and we love them anyway. I would rather be someone who can adapt to any role than being stuck in one specific roll. My favorite thing right now as a lv 50 blaster is rezing someone and having them say "wow thanks I didn't know blasters could rez" Do I rez as well as a Defender or controller? no but it's still appreciated and it's still cool.
I understand where you are coming from; but I think that you are in a minority. Most people I've spoken to are content with the eat's or they say they will be once the -30% goes away.
Having said all that, I still don't like Kheldians (or scrappers, or tankers, or defenders....) .

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Yup. And the Polar Interweb, too.

I can download my icefishing photos to my friends!

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I have a few canucks in my SG. I was wondering how they were logging on. I assumed it had something to do with penguins, backpacks, and a transmitter. Thanks for the update!

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Actually most of the IT for the states is done in Canada, 'cause the peguins work for next to nothing.

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We'll post something on the main page soon...but I wanted to let everyone know that Cryptic and NCSoft will be at WonderCon in San Francisco (Feb. 18th - 20th).

Click HERE for more info.

I'll be there to answer questions, give out prizes...so make sure you come!

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So when will you be at a Canadian Con?