Maelwys

For some reason I'm now waiting for MaX to also Quote that last post for truth...

TBH I'm not that familiar with the MA set, but it looks like Eagles Claw and Crane Kick are your two big Single Target attacks... Crippling axe kick seems to have decent damage but is kinda slow activation.

Maybe Combat Jumping? Can be very useful for a all-melee range toon for manuvering in the air, and is very low endurance (doesn't even need an endred).

You can always respec later!

Aye, SS isn't the worst pick...

What're your Martial Arts choices?

Second pick from the Fighting Pool, needs 5 slots to be fully decent:
3 damage resistance and two endurance reduction SOs.

For a scrapper it gives about a 18% boost in resistance to Smashing and Lethal damage when slotted.

As a Regen you don't need tough, but it can help slightly... make sure you've got Dull Pain/Instant Healing/Reconstruction/Quick Recovery first.

TBH, I'd take Air Superiority from the flight pool over it assuming you went the [Hover --> Fly] route.

Don't bother with Stealth, and Resilience is really of negligable benefit anymore.

Hmm. I always assumed Knock UP was the component that literally bounced a mob upwards, and that Tornado/Psi Tornado/Whirlwind/etc. only caused mobs to be flung backwards because the entity causing the knockup was itself moving forwards and adding "momentum" to the bounce.

A quick glance on Nofuture shows:

Effect 6.231 Knockup to Target for 0.3 seconds if (target = critter)
Effect 12.463 Knockback to Target for 0.3 seconds if (target = critter)
Effect 12.463 Knockback to Target if (target = player)
Suppressed when Knocked, for 10 seconds (WhenInactive)

Tornado contains BOTH a knockup and a knockback component.

1.4 Knockup to Target (50% chance)

And Psi Tornado Contains just the Knockup component. That'd suggest to me that mobs would actually be forceably flung away from Tornado, but that mobs would only be thrown backwards from Psi Tornado at roughly the same speed that the Psi Tornado itself was travelling forwards.

Wierd... If it doesn't actually act this way, I suppose it's just the ragdoll system in action!

I suppose a toon could knock something back further if it had a knockup/knockdown attack slotted for knockback... but does anyone actually DO that?

[Edit: I never got the chance to test out the old version of whirlwind, but from what I gather it was knockup without much knockback... there's tales on the US boards of scrappers using it to keep mobs out of action but still within melee range (5 feet) ....? Apologies to the OP for the OT discussion btw!! ]

Yes, of zero

(unless you're talking about the height at which mobs are actually bounced into the air... which I've never seen change on my Soaring Dragon *ever*...)

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I'm pretty sure that secondary knockdown/knockup effects don't care what level a mob is providing the tohit check succeeds.

[/ QUOTE ]They do, the higher the target, the shorter distance it will be knocked back. ALL power effectiviness on hostiles scales with level.

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Yes, Which wouldn't affect Knockup/Knockdown attacks since they already have a "Knockback" distance of zero on even level targets.

The actual bouncing occurs at the same success rate regardless of whether the mob you're trying to bounce is even level or +5, as long as you can physically make the attack connect.

My Kat/Regen scrapper can attest to this as he was quite happily permabouncing level 50 Death Mages in PI from 45 onwards...

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I appreciate the advice, but I was really going for a more solo-able build. If this one won't work, how could I improve it for soloability?

[/ QUOTE ]Pick another secondary.

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Constructive as ever.

[/ QUOTE ]Just the truth, nothing more

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The funny thing is, that build would be fine for soloing...

Added damage from sonic siphon, and decent self mez protection from all but sleep effects. The added damage output on teams is also not to be sniffed at...

A solo /Sonic would probably benefit more from an Illusion than a Grav primary though, since you can anchor Sonic Disruption on your own Phantom Army and not pull aggro from them.

Grav's Singularity would tend to fling the mobs away outside the 15 feet effect radius... I suppose you could stand directly beside ol' Singy with SD anchored on him and ranged attack mobs when they get close to him... would be much slower going though.

I'd suggest trying to fit Aid Self in though, have found it very handy when soloing my level 49 Sonic/Elec defender and combined with your bubbs ('rings'?) Aid other can save a team.

-Resistance doesn't work quite like that... it's effectively a total damage multiplier, so the mob's actual resistance levels for various damage types don't matter to it.

Say Mob A has 50% resistance and Mob B has 0 resistance:

You hit for 100, so that's 50 on mob A and 100 on mob B. Now apply a -res debuff of 20%: you now hit mob A for 60 damage and mob B for 120. It's effectively adding 20% to your total damage output.

And I'm aware that most offensive powers scale down as mob level scales up MaX, but that didn't make it any less annoying when I tested it a few days back and found a 30% -res debuff on +4s boosted a 63 dmg attack to only 67 dmg... I'm too used to Build Up's flat +damage rate!

I'm pretty sure that secondary knockdown/knockup effects don't care what level a mob is providing the tohit check succeeds. And -tohit debuffs certainly seem to scale a lot better than -res does...

...Ack, now I'm griping!

Yes, but it affects tohit as well.

All normal damage buffs only work by increasing base damage. They don't take into account other buffs or damage enhancements. Therefore assuming you've 3-slotted a power with Attack SOs, +20% damage from follow up would effectively raise your total damage output for that power by about 10%.

Mob resistance debuffs work differently as *all* damage is effectively increased, but as my sonic defender has discoved the % of extra damage from -res drops as mob level scales up...

Info on Follow-Up from nofuture.org here

It's a boost to base damage and tohit.

I think the idea is to tweak it so that this boost is stacked constantly though... it's less of a damage boost than Build up but can do more +attack/+tohit over time and it can be double-stacked for a short period.

Basically it's low damage, so if you spam it it will eat into your dps... But at the same time it's giving you a boost to your other attacks so using Follow-up in between each of your big hitters can be worthwhile.

There's a "ultimate follow-up attack chain of doom" thread somewhere on the US boards that involves using Quickness and spamming follow-up for maximum dps.

Basically, juggle about with it and see what suits your playstyle!

[edit] added US boards thread linky [/edit]

---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
---------------------------------------------
Name: def_dark_sonic
Level: 50
Archetype: Defender
Primary: Dark Miasma
Secondary: Sonic Blast
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Twilight Grasp==> Acc(1) Acc(3) Heal(3) Heal(5) Rechg(48) EndRdx(48)
01) --> Shriek==> Acc(1) Dmg(7) Dmg(9) Dmg(11) Acc(31)
02) --> Scream==> Acc(2) Dmg(7) Dmg(9) Dmg(11) Acc(27) Rechg(31)
04) --> Darkest Night==> EndRdx(4) EndRdx(5) TH_DeBuf(34) TH_DeBuf(34) TH_DeBuf(36)
06) --> Tar Patch==> Rechg(6) Rechg(13) Rechg(40)
08) --> Hurdle==> Jump(8) Jump(50)
10) --> Combat Jumping==> DefBuf(10)
12) --> Fearsome Stare==> Acc(12) Acc(13) Fear(15) Fear(15) Rechg(19) Rechg(39)
14) --> Super Jump==> Jump(14)
16) --> Shout==> Acc(16) Dmg(17) Dmg(17) Dmg(19) Acc(31) Rechg(40)
18) --> Health==> Heal(18)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(21) EndMod(21)
22) --> Petrifying Gaze==> Acc(22) Acc(23) Hold(23) Hold(25) Rechg(27) Rechg(29)
24) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(24) EndRdx(25)
26) --> Howling Twilight==> EndRdx(26)
28) --> Shadow Fall==> EndRdx(28) EndRdx(29) DmgRes(46) DmgRes(46) DmgRes(48)
30) --> Amplify==> Rechg(30) Rechg(34) Rechg(40) TH_Buf(50) TH_Buf(50)
32) --> Dark Servant==> Acc(32) TH_DeBuf(33) TH_DeBuf(33) TH_DeBuf(33) Rechg(43)
35) --> Screech==> Acc(35) Acc(36) DisDur(36) DisDur(37) Rechg(37) Rechg(37)
38) --> Hasten==> Rechg(38) Rechg(39) Rechg(39)
41) --> Dominate==> Acc(41) Hold(42) Hold(42) Hold(42) Rechg(43) Rechg(43)
44) --> Mind Over Body==> DmgRes(44) DmgRes(45) DmgRes(45) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(46)
47) --> Recall Friend==> EndRdx(47)
49) --> Super Speed==> Run(49)

That's my planned Dark/Sonic build to 50.

I've played a Bot/Dark MM and a Sonic/Elec defender at high levels, I really don't see the need for slows in Tar patch but the Endred and Recharge can be taken from Twilight Grasp once you get fluffy, or the tohitbuffs can be taken out of Aim if you don't mind missing occasionally.

Went with Psychic Mastery for the extra hold (stacks nicely with Pet gaze) and the added Psionic resistance, which combined with shadow fall makes this toon have the highest solo Psionic resistance in the game.

I'm not a great fan of the epic pool's version of Telekinesis, particularly with no self-endurance buff.

VERY powerful combo: Lots of controls, high damage output, stealth, fear protection, damage resistance, a self/team heal, a team rez, a toggle debuff to prevent aid self from firing, -resistance, -tohit, -regen and one of the best support pets in the game.

No defense, end drain protection and mez protection other than fear and cj/acro of course... and mediocre accuracy... but that's game balance for you! It wouldn't be fair to your opponents otherwise!

The synergy's great. Howling twilight will even stack with screech!

If you've already got tough hide and Resist Physical... go with the energy one.

Personally I'd rather take Focussed Accuracy tho (or given INV's endurance issues Conserve Energy...)

Ack, shows how much I've used the arena then!

Thought the Pocket D one coming with i8 was the only way Heroes and Villains could arena-battle...

Have you duelled any /DA scrappers running mez toggles Hammer?
(Running a Break Free the entire fight doesn't count!!!)

Whew, that's an essay.

I'm not even going to try to quote my way through all that, it's getting late...

So we've established that MoG's a poor power pick, Regen's don't need a buff, Knockback is annoying and that there are some idiots that play scrappers. Yay!

Sorry if I got a bit carried away there earlier, I had a "working lunch" today and was bored...

Last few points, promise:

+ Controller and Defenders both get access to psionic attacks in epic pools. Illusion trollers have some high damage psionic attacks in their primary. Dominators and Defenders both also get a Psionic-damage-based set.

+ It's not just SRs that have a hard time with blappers, Regens will get spiked damage to death if they blink. Blappers will have a harder time versus a Dark Aura scrapper running their two mezzle AoE toggles (Dark's also resistant to End Drain which is a favourite of many Elec blasters).

+ Scrappers of any secondary can scrank a unintentionally aggroed mob and "save the team" if they know what they're doing. If done correctly this can be a great help to a team that suddenly finds itself fighting 2 or 3 times its normal amount of enemies.

Heck tonight I tanked two 6-man mobs of +3s on my Sonic/Elec defender by using Short Circuit and a few Insps, sure I came close to dying when the insps ran out, but I bought the rest of the team the time it needed to finish its original mob and come help.

Regen's aren't "uber". Some might think they are, they're not: They're just good all-rounders.
It takes synergy with their primary and a good player behind the wheel to make them great toons.

Now my Human/Dwarfie build Peacebringer, on the other hand.... he's practically an energy damage /regen with ranged attacks, phase shift, nova and unstoppable. And, well lets just say I'd never suggest taking void bosses out of the game, because otherwise nothing could stop him.

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When each damage type is treated the same you have to have some weakness, you cant have everything.


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My point exactly. Elude adds defense to everything and MoG has major holes in Toxic and Psi. If you compare the two, you have to conceed that MoG is substantially weaker.

It's weaker than Unstoppable, it's weaker than Elude.
As pointed out earlier, IMO even Dark's self-rez is better than it.

Next argument, please.

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If you're a CONTROLLER/TANKER you should be paying attention to the ebb and flow of the fight. Chances are you'll see THE REGEN SCRAPPER overshoot and aggro a second or second and third 8-man mob whilst the tank's otherwise engaged...

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Edited for reality. Especially with scrappers on follow, either following their own kbs that are directed towards extra mobs or some khelds or blasters.

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Whilst this was fine before the 'editing', I agree it's important for ALL toons to be closely watching the fight.

Most good scrappers I know watch the battle like hawks, their whole AT is geared on Boss interception and killing them before they become a major threat.

Scrappers don't have Knockbacks. They Have KnockUPs and KnockDOWNs. They don't upset the spawn position, that's the squid or NRG blaster doing that.

I honestly don't know what it is you have against regens. They are far from the overpowered Godlike AT they used to be and are now completely on par with Dark and SR. The only difference is that regens mature earlier with IH... Darks and SRs actually get more powerful than regens later on in the game.

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Having to do 2 mobs at a time is unnecessary unless there is an ambush involved

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Or too much aggro is pulled (by someone who steps a few feet in the wrong direction, mistimes an AOE or overshoots their mark. Usually a squishy in my experience, though idiots aren't AT-specific!). Hence the need for the new mob to be distracted while the tank and rest of the team gets the original mob under control and can cope with the NEW mob(s). The usual method for a scrapper to distract a second mob is to engage it in melee combat and throw up their emergency defenses. If a controller is paying attention and has an AOE mez free, then they can handle it. But not all teams have Trollers, and AOE holds have a long recharge.

Jumping in and hitting all your Defenses is a tried and tested scrapper method of prolonging the life of a team, particularly when fighting against damage that the tank has poor resistance to (OMG Carnies, Psi Clockwork!).

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Regens are generally considered to be the better secondary for one-on-one melee AT duels.

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Thats the point i am getting at, alot of people dont team pvp where i think its really where things are at.

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That was in direct response to "Are regens generally the hardest scrapper to take down overall in a duel?".

And it only applies to one-on-one *MELEE* AT duels. That's scrappers fighting Tanks, Brutes or other Scrappers ONLY. The reason for this is that regens get Quick Recovery and two self heals. Against controllers, blappers and ranged damage dealers regen is far from the optimum scrapper secondary.

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Why is it important to be able to defeat everything? And why people on the same side? Hero PvP teams should be dishing it out against villains and only have villains to worry about.

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You specified DUELs which currently cannot take place between Heroes and Villains in the arena.

MoG would probably be better if you were solely fighting one-on-one with a Villain AT. As a rule they don't get many self-accuracy boosts (stalkers high-accuracy version of "Build up" is an exception) and will have less access to psi damage. But right now this is a very, very rare occurance.

In Team PvP both villains and heroes will cut right through MoG, just like Elude. Accuracy buffs are rife in Team PvP, (so is Rad Infection and Lingering Radiation.... bah!)

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certainly if i see a fight going pear shaped and i can buy those squishies (or even the tank) the additional 5 seconds they need to bug out or pull it round then i'll 'take one for the team'.

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/em salute !!

To bring this slightly back OT, the OP could probably accomplish this by grabbing aggro with DC + Soul Drain, using Dull Pain and IH, and ToF/Siphon Life'ing the biggest baddie for the -accuracy.

My Kat/Regen's quite capable of scranking such mobs short-term with 6-slotted DA, Air Superiority and Energy Torrent slotted for recharge and accuracy.

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If each scrapper min/maxxed were to have a list of ATs and sets that could drop it in a fight i wonder who'd have the shortest, the one that can deal with all damage types?


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At level 50?

I'd say a well-played built-for-survivability Dark would take the crown: fear and end drain protection, a self heal, mezzle PBAoE toggles and nice all-around resistance. I can't think of much that would beat that consistently besides stacked, ranged holds or a lot of stacked, ranged -recharge. It wouldn't be easy to pilot though!!

SR next (with aid self) because of Resistance to slow, Positional Defense and Practised Brawler. Accuracy buffs are not that difficult to come by in pvp otherwise it'd be on top.

Then Regen fairly closely behind them because of QR and its obvious ability to absorb mutiple damage types.

INV last, it just can't handle much besides S/L one-on-one.

Using Dark primary for fear or Broadsword/Katana for Parry/DA, the list will be quite short for any scrapper.

Regens can be feared, end drained, spike damaged, -recharged into oblivion and have their mez protection detoggled. They're not kings of high end pvp by any stretch of the imagination.

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Who said i missed? its just a case of getting past their extra resistance


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Fair enough. Shouldn't be a problem in the slightest with a few critical hits though.

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Same with elude except elude doesnt make you resistant so you can have your whole healthbar which is 75% more health but without the possible 75% resist.

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So "Same as elude" then, since the lower Health Pool and increased Resistance effectively cancel out.

With elude you can still be healed and you have high toxic and psi defense since it's positional not typed. With MoG you dont have any toxic or psi defense and effectively take 400% normal damage from psi attacks.

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Its more to do with timing and point of engagement of most regens that i have seen compromise team, also "the taking one for the team" is a nonsense almost all of the time as there are almost always alternatives.

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If you're a scrapper you should be paying attention to the ebb and flow of the fight. Chances are you'll see a squishy defender or blaster overshoot and aggro a second or second and third 8-man mob whilst the tank's otherwise engaged... the team's gonna have a problem, the squishy is almost certainly heading for the pavement. So what are you going to do? Dive in and cone attack them, start stacking Parry/DA and fire IH/Dull Pain/Elude/whatever. Even MoG if it takes your fancy.

On that point I'd like to see an AoE-build fire/fire blaster scrank two 8-man Carnie or Hydra mobs whilst a badly battered tank and the rest of the team runs for cover.

When the original mob's clear the tank can pull aggro off you, and if you've dropped in the line of duty... Revive or Soul Transfer ftw! (And lying in the middle of a mob Soul Transfer would be better than revive!)

I honestly wouldn't mind revive being regen's tier 9. I only took it at 49 anyway and I did the same on my peacebringer with restore essence, it's pretty rare for a well played melee toon to hit the floor unless they're intentionally biting off more than they can chew.

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Are regen scrappers normally always flavour of the month?

Are regens generally the hardest scrapper to take down overall in a duel?


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No to the first, and Sometimes to the second.

SRs are often a flavor of the month secondary, particularly for pvp. Dark less often but never seen INV.

Regens are generally considered to be the better secondary for one-on-one melee AT duels. For duels versus a control orientated squishy or a blaster, a controllery-build Dark or a SR with Practised Brawler will probably have more luck than a regen. Inv can cause a lot of trouble with their repel resistance too, when regens will be pushed all over the place without using MoG.

Illusion Controllers can hold through MoG and damage you something shocking too, there's no shortage of them about... Defender and Controllers also get some nice psionic powers in their epic pools. Psi damage is pretty commonplace in pvp (and so are /energy blappers)...

If you can't hit MoG'ed PPs then you sir, have poor accuracy!

My Katana/Regen loves it when PPs MoG early, he just kills them faster.
With Focussed Accuracy and two Acc SOs in your attacks you will not notice a PP's MoG defense buff.

In PvP most decent blasters can hit right through slotted MoG. As can anyone running Geas the Kind ones accolade or with a few Fortitude Buffs.

MoG sets you to 25% of your current health regardless of what your Health Bar is at when you use it. You can not improve upon that percentage figure, using Dull Pain beforehand simply increases your overall Health Pool.

Running Unstoppable on a tanker your resistance cap is a lot higher than on a scrapper, you have a larger HP pool to begin with and YOU CAN STILL BE HEALED.

If you've never seen a /regen scrapper take care of your squishies in 4000 hours then then you either haven't been paying much attention or you've teamed with a LOT of bad scrappers. Most scrappers I know would rather take the last hit than see a squishier teammate die.

I've very rarely seen a regen that cares about THEMSELVES dying though!

Double post ftw!

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i have yet to experience MoG but as someone whose experienced in using unstoppable at anytime and find ways of crashing without defeat I very much doubt i am going to find MoG weak

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MoG sets you at 25% HP, and caps your resistance at 75%. You can still physically absorb exactly the same amount of damage as you could before from all damage types except for PSI (from which you suddenly start taking the equivilant of 400% normal damage). You also suddenly take the equivalant of 400% normal damage from unresistable damage such as Hamidon or Crystal Titan damage, or damage from falling.

You can't be healed in any shape or form over the course of its 180 second duration, your regen rate is also completely halted.

The positives to MoG are increased mez resistance, an endurance recovery boost and a large defence buff to Smashing/Lethal/Energy/Neg Energy/Fire/Cold damage.

MoG is NOT an unstoppable clone, it acts much more like a higher defense version of Elude with a -400% damage penalty to psionic damage and no psionic or toxic defense. Also unlike Elude, you cannot be healed, your regen rate is halted and once MoG wears off you are still left with very low health.

Let me emphasise this last point:
The only USEFUL attribute of MoG is that you suddenly become harder to hit, providing that you are not being hit by Toxic, Psionic or Autohit/Unresisted damage. If hit you will still die, and die a LOT faster than normal.

Soul Transfer.

Which rezes you and applies an autohit MaG 30 disorient to everything in a 25 foot radius for 10 seconds. And makes you completely invunerable for those 10 seconds just in case you happen to be fighting something so badass it has better than MaG 30 stun protection. (say, GMs or Hamidon).

Yup... far too underpowered, nothing to see here...

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Don't take MoG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(no, it drops you to a set % of your total HP. The amount can be buffed by using Dull Pain before MoG)

Do NOT use MoG if you're planning on taking 'Falling' damage, fighting Psi or toxic damage mobs, taking autohit damage (caltrops etc.) or fighting NRG blasters with Aim/BuildUp/PowerBoost in PvP.

If memory serves it's a LARGE +defence buff and considerable +res buff which lasts for about 3 mins, disables all regeneration and healing effects on you (which admittedly can be fun for panicing empaths) and you can NOT turn it off when it's on. No matter how much you want to.

I never took it, and Never ever ever ever plan on taking it ever.

...Unless the devs actually DO swap it with Force of Nature, which would be a joy for everyone concerned!

Probably worth stating here that Defdebuff is meant to work just like Defbuff in Hami-Os (hover your HO over a slottable power and see what effect it'll have on your buffs!) so those endred/defdebuff ones should be quite good in SR scrapper or Ice/Stone tank armors.