Liquid

You know, that might explain why BAF was so much smoother early on. Nobody had unlocked and slotted Lore yet.

That being said, Lore also means more targets for that AoE confuse, so it could be a combination of both.

Example: I have a demofile of the final phase of an old-Hamidon raid that took 40 minutes in real-time. The demofile plays in 30 seconds.

If the latter is the case, then we're in a catch-22. If the content is unpopular due to the problem, allocating resources is low priority because it won't affect very many people. If the content is popular, it must not be a problem, so why allocate resources?

The same thing could be said about BAF. It appears to me to be the most popular content in the game right now, based on global channel activity. Whether it is or not, in my book, fixing that lag should be higher priority than any new content, and higher priority than any design requirement for AoE confuses on the prisoners, or whatever is causing it. Its existence makes the game look bad. Can you imagine people who wanted an end game, that left during the old Hamidon days when it was a slide show, coming back to see this and saying, "they still haven't fixed that?" I hope it's very high on their list of priorities, but I'm not holding my breath.

This reminds me that someone suggested that the AoE confuse on the prisoners is likely to blame. Personally, I think it should be removed, because I've never been affected by it or seen anyone affected by it. In theory, it's interesting. In practice, it serves little purpose but to contribute to server lag.

It's also a little frustrating to know that they know why the third mission of the ITF has that lag, but they haven't resolved it. They could change Cimerorans to just have a set Def buff instead of the AoE buff, as they all converge on their targets almost immediately, and the shout gives them enough KB resistance that they can't be scattered. The AoE buff is interesting in theory, but again, in practice it serves little purpose but to contribute to server lag.

This issue has been around for a long time. It's weird that they decided to to focus on multi-team content without first resolving this issue. Yes, you do get that lag in the 3rd mission of the ITF, but outside of that I don't think I've ever experienced it in single-team content.

I agree, when the issue first released, I don't remember experiencing this. I definitely didn't experience it in Beta.

I hate that badge. I'm a badge hunter, I've got 1214 badges right now, and I will not get that badge. Ever. I can't believe they added it after lowering so many of the other ones.

The only reason I have Empath is because they lowered it.

True. And honestly, even if they despised them, hardcore players willing to do those other kinds of crazy things would still run the trials.

Thanks for posting this and for your analysis!

I should also thank Nihilii for posting his/her data as well, I forgot to do that.

For what it's worth, a little over half of mine came from rare drops too.

Edit: I misunderstood this at first, and removed irrelevant comments. I'm glad you included this, as it does change the perspective for people who don't feel Rares are a worthwhile goal. (Note that I feel that way about Judgement and Destiny for non-trial usage, but not Interface. Interface starts to gain extra bonuses at rare, instead of just improving the bonuses it already has.)

I agree.

We may or may not agree on the degree, and in spite of me, I haven't spent much time thinking about what that degree should be, you see.

The 3 year estimate is for Very Rares, which we both agree isn't really a reasonable goal for "casual" players, so it shouldn't be used in their defense. However, is it a reasonable goal for hardcore players that just hate the trials? As you've already suggested, that's subjective.

That depends on whether you're posting from work or not, doesn't it?

The OP has been updated. The 18 thread number has already been corrected.

That being said, I've never received 10 shards in a single ITF, and I believe 4 to be my average. I'm glad to hear that you get 10.

Also, check out Arcanaville's post three below yours. After my corrections based on her feedback, I'm not far off from her (she has earned 30 times on Trials what she gets on ITFs).

That's cool, I don't expect you to have results that match mine. The sample size is obviously too small. I just objected to the half-comparison.

Thanks for looking.

Again, just out of curiosity, are you running mostly BAFs? Or skipping turrets and courtyard spawns in Lambda? Because those thread drop rates sound similar to what I get for BAF, but not Lambda. BAF has a lot of non-thread earning potential (with people ignore adds and focusing on the AVs), and we clear the turrets and spawns on every Lambda I've been on. I'm curious if this is just random being random, or a difference in playstyle.

It would be interesting to find out that certain playstyles generate more Threads per time, but less Shards per time, and vice versa. I'm not saying that just knowing your results and mine are going to show that on the spot, just that it's something interesting to consider. It doesn't sound plausible based on how the rest of the game works, but if it turns out that they do use some kind of contribution algorithm to determine reward tables as is being discussed in another thread, it might end up that my playstyle results in a higher Trial vs. non-Trial reward ratio, while yours results in a lower one.

All I was saying was that you didn't offer any information about what you've actually earned through the trials in that post. You took what I've earned through the trials and compared it to your shard earning rate. For all we know, you might be earning ~30 times (I have adjusted my numbers based on your posts, and I see in your response to Venture that you're now saying that it sounds more accurate) the rate as well, if you assume that you actually use what component drops you can, and break down the rest.

I do believe there is a huge level of variability in performance for both trials and shard earning rates. Getting a Rare or Very Rare has a massive impact on your equivalent Thread rewards, and someone here has already posted a solo shard earning rate of over 17 an hour.

I want to be clear that my goal here is to get a better idea about how component drops, Empyrian Merits, and Astral merits have affected the advancement gap between Trial and non-Trial content. I've offered, really, the only information I have on the topic, in the hopes that it would result in people posting more data (so far only one person has), and some kind of a discussion on how we could come to some kind of accurate estimate instead of "5 times as long" or "1000 times as long". Aside from not having a very reliable estimate for my shard earning capabilities, and not including Alpha component breakdowns, I think I made two big mistakes. The first is posting something labeled "conclusion". The second is posting it in this forum instead of in a less flamewar prone forum like Archetypes and Powers (it's about rewards, not Powers, though, so I didn't know where else to post it).

Thanks for the data, I really appreciate it. Your Brute's Shard average is crazy, I had no idea anyone could do that!

The point of this thread is supposed to be this: before this content was released, estimates as to the speed difference between Trial and non-Trial advancement were based entirely on Thread vs Shard drops and the conversion rate. But it's very obvious now that Thread drops comprise only a small component of the total advancement. Merits and component drops provide the bulk, so our estimates were way off.

And for those still criticizing the "calculations" (of which you could only mean the estimated Shard drops, because nothing else is suspect) in the OP, they've been adjusted based on Arcanaville's points-- but not her particular playstyle, because my post provides information about differences in my performance, not hers. I'm hoping that she will post hers.

This thread was not supposed to be a complaint or yet another solo vs teaming beatdown between the usual suspects. It was supposed to be the start of a discussion and analysis of the impact these extra rewards have on the difference between trial and non-trial rewards, so we can have a better idea of what that is and not throw out random inaccurate numbers like "5 times as long" or "1000 times as long".

Wow. That's low. Are you only doing BAFs? Most of my Thread drops came from Lambdas.

I gave a random guess, because the actual number of trials was irrelevant to the results. The point here is really that I got X running trials last week, and if I'd run non Trial content instead using the same amount of playtime, I'd have gotten Y.

Sounds about right, for me, actually. It depends on the TF, though, as some have more EBs and AVs, and result in slightly more shards. I've run ITFs where I've gotten one shard, though.

So, for the purpose of equivalency, I was using my actual Thread drops and converting via what the devs told us in beta: that Threads drop 5 times as often as shards. If you know the real drop difference, that would be awesome to know, and I'll adjust the OP accordingly. I actually made comments during my trial runs that while I did get far more Threads, it didn't feel like 5 times. I was promptly told to quit my whining and convert Astral Merits.

I want to point out that I have never, ever had a 35 minute ITF run, and it's your average. So we can't really compare your playtime to mine.

If you want to give data for your drop rates, that would be awesome. What have you gotten over the last week? How long do you think it would take to do the same thing just running TFs? What if you ran normal missions?

If we're talking about how long it would take to get Incarnate powers, is it fair to assume we have them when determining how long it will take?



That's because you're comparing the way you play, to the way I play. My average ITF time is 1 hour. I say I average 4-7 shards, but that's probably false. I have gotten 1 or 2 on occasion. I've never gotten more than 7, so my "average of 4-7" is probably inaccurate. The only solid data I have for this comparison is what I gave above, with my final drop-only thread count being something I'm not sure of, but I think 90 is a good estimate, as I had 60 Friday evening before I finally used them and I think I gave in and started converting astral merits at the end of the night when I only had 14 threads left. Then I ran a Lambda on Saturday morning. I do wish I'd kept better track.

For the bulk of my information, I'm not giving estimates, though. The only estimated value here is the Thread drop, and I thought I was being conservative by saying 90, because I had 74 and then did a Lambda run. That being said, I'm going to add component breakdown to the OP as that is an important omission, though it's hard to estimate as due to the time difference between trials and TFs (for me, not for you). I couldn't have actually used half of my time on TFs due to not being able to guarantee a solid block of time.

Just to be clear, I didn't state that they were 100 times faster. I said that I got 100 times the Thread equivalent than I would have, with caveats like "I got 3 rare components" and "your mileage may vary" and "can anyone else post some data so we can get an average". I concluded "let's stop saying 5 times, it's closer to 100". I never said it was 100. And with breakdowns it's probably closer to 50 for me. Edit: note that I've doubled my drop estimate given that I estimated 9 TF runs and now the value is 36.

I'm responding too quickly here, and I missed this. What did I count optimally for the trial? I'm giving my actual experience, which, by the way, points out that I get more Uncommons than commons, and I only count Uncommons at their creation value when they are used. I then use 9 threads as their value for the rest. It's actually broken out here in the op for the leftover components:

I never said 15-20 Task Forces. I said Trials. These trials are much shorter than most Task Forces. Some of the trials I ran took 20 minutes (I think all the BAFs were that short), while most ITFs I run take an hour, and I get maybe 4-7 shards from those. You can't equate a trial to a task force like this. I'm equating play time.

You're right, but they can be broken down into 1 shard. So, not more than 18, but 18 is a good estimate. EDIT: Wait, no, it's not a good estimate, because I could not have run 15-20 TFs in that time frame. I'm not sure how many I could have run, as I didn't keep track of my total time.

I don't know what it actually is, but we were told that Threads dropped 5 times as often as Shards, and I get far more Threads over time than Shards. Your 80-150 Shards number is massive for my playtime. I've never experienced anything near that.

Instead of giving a ballpark, do you want to go into more detail? Because I really don't think I'm 10 times off. That's huge.

People running TFs full time are in the same boat. Also, unless there's a cooldown on the 2 Threads reward, 5x Apex/Tin Mage per day would have the same result. Soloists would probably be worse off (how much does a soloist need to play per day to get 10 shards a day on x8?)