Leo_G

When I started reading this thread and you put up that idea, I thought you actually *did* get the idea from me. If you look in that phantom aura armor set thread and scroll down, there's a guy with the exact same avatar as you. But you're not Rockpirate, are you?

Not all the time. You've got fox fire, will o' wisp fire, soul/spirit fire, hellfire, black/dark fire, divine/holy fire. Some are hot, others don't burn a thing except what they're intended to harm, and I'm sure someone creative enough could think up a cool concept for some neat fire types.

Too bad you really can't distinguish them in any way except cosmetically. Well, technically, we have hellfire and it does fire/toxic damage. I bet divine flames would be something like fire/energy damage. Will o' wisp might be fire/psi.

Well, at least you admit you didn't understand me then.

I brought up Super Strength, not solely because it has only one AoE, but that it 'makes the best out of that one AoE'. I never said any set with only one AoE is as good as Super Strength, just that you can make up for a lot with proper tools. In SS's case, reliable Rage + Footstomp outputs respectable (or more than respectable) AoE.

That's it.

Don't need to compare fury, stacked rage, crashes or max recharge because that wasn't the initial point.

But just as a hypothetical; Stalkers with BU (probably not getting Rage although it's not like it's counter to the AT's function) + Footstomp out of hide, attack chain then placate + Footstomp. Most things'll probably be dead (on a team) after the 1st Footstomp but you still have another crit FS in your pocket just in case. Are you trying to tell me that that would be sub-par AoE? Adequate?

Oh, but Stalkers will never get Super Strength, you say? What about Ice melee? They'll definitely get Fire melee, I bet. Seriously, I'll bet you right now Stalkers will get it. If you think BU+FE+Fire Sword Circle on a Scrapper was deadly, try doing 2x damage on nearly everything at the same time.

You will if you're specifically trying to AoE burst kill minions/Lts. Any smart Stalker with AoEs and lots of minions to kill will make sure BU, Hide, Placate or all are available every time they need to use their AoEs.

I'll remind you, Dispari, you're responding to *my* points. We *are* having the argument I'm talking about because you're arguing against specifically *my* points.

Actually, I do (the scrapper part, that is). For AoE burst. Using rounded up, simplified math/numbers, Scrapper Dual Blades can get something like 740 AoE dmg from a sweep combo in like 8 seconds or 530 dmg from just BF, Typhoon and Sweeping Strike in 5 seconds. Of course, you could stack BF but that would add another 4+1.2 seconds to that activation for around 600 dmg. Stalker Dual Blades can get 600 dmg from just BU > 1kcuts from hide in less than 5 seconds and over 1000 dmg in 7 sec by adding placate and sweeping strike.

*time would shift up for each respectively when taking into consideration the actual activation time + arcana time.

Lol, you're either very dense, being facicious or just plain lack reading comprehension.

I'll just tell you that you're reading it wrong. But if you want me to explain it I will.

Well, I'm pretty sure you weren't thinking about putting a tiny/short duration -res effect in there when you were imagining the set, were you? If that's the set's gimmick, I'm betting you were thinking of making it at least noticeable.

Ah, so we actually agree that it's what you can do with the few AoEs you have and not how many you've got that makes a big difference. Cause a Stalker's ability to stack an 80% dmg buff + a 50% crit on AoEs can really ramp up stuff like Thunderstrike, Throw Spines, 1kcuts, Burst and the like. And before you point out Shadow Maul, Flashing Steel and what have you, let me remind you that my point was how comparitively improved Stalker's AoE burst damage would be when using melee set like Fire Melee, Mace or even the moderate-low dmg Ice melee.

In that situation, you have to critically evaluate the advantage of AoE burst vs AoE DPS. On a team (*looks at the thread title*) where other players have AoEs and you're fighting along side them, which will kill the most foes?

And look I said "kill the most foes" not "does the most damage" because they are not the same. One is a quick 1>2 button press while the other requires 3+ button presses for *possibly* better damage.

I'm willing to guess you're going to take out foes quicker with BU+100% crit Burst.

And they recharge slowly. And it's more likely you'll slot for their effect, recharge or accuracy vs their damage, all things considered.

Indeed, it's a nice trick. But hardly worth choosing a MA scrapper vs a MA stalker. Neither will be doing that much AoE. Remember, 'respectable' doesn't seem to be worth sh*t otherwise people wouldn't still be pigeonholing Stalkers into the 'crap' bin for AoE.

Right. So now join me in poking the devs to have those powersets/combos ported over to Stalkers. Because then that won't be one advantage held over the AT's head. I tend not to add these in the comparison for the very fact that it's only a matter of time.

Because, I'm not blind. Look at Super Strength. It has *ONE* AoE...but it is heralded as being one of the best melee AoE sets.

Why is SS so revered for it's AoE? because it's not the *number* of AoEs you have, but the *quality* of your AoEs. That is, whatever AoEs stalkers get, they can pump them up thanks to always having BU and being able to, on command, do 2x damage on half or more of their targets.

*points to above*

Besides that, pointing out the damage modifiers is only telling part of the story. What's 2x a 1.0 mod again? For AoEs at least...

No no no, Dispari. You can't make generalized statements like that. No, it doesn't matter how often it's spouted on the forums, that doesn't make it any more all-encompassing. When you have to put a list of asterisks by a sentence just to make it true kind of defeats the purpose.

Stalker's aren't solely ST damage specialists, not when you actually look at the sets case by case. It's Martial Arts, Dark Melee and Energy Melee that are single target focused and that goes for *every AT*. And even having a specialty for ST bursts doesn't mean that's all they have to offer.

Sets like Katana, Broadsword and Claws may have diminished AoE but they can provide it for the team. Sets like Dual Blades, Spines and Electric Melee can provide great if not the same AoE damage as their AT counterparts and it's arguable that Kinetic Melee has *better* AoE on a Stalker. Bring epics into the mix and there's just too many 'excepts' to rely on the statement.

That said, outside of fringe cases, Scrappers aren't fulfilling 'general damage role' anymore than a Stalker because 'general' is pretty all-encompassing. It includes burst damage, DPS and AoE. Will your MA scrapper be dishing out the AoE? Or your Claws/Dual Blades the burst?

For a general damage dealing role, that is Blaster. Anyone else is, in a min/max perspective, filler. That includes Scrapper.

What won't ever happen?

That the game won't ever try to balance out the situational advantages of some tactics?

Or that stars that have their spotlight won't willingly share it without a fight?

I never dreamed the latter will ever happen in-game or reality and the former is pretty much too-little-too-late.

Well, you'd have to be under the delusion that Scrappers are filling some role that teams want. I'm pretty sure, whatever role Scrappers fill, Stalkers are in the same boat. They have about as much opportunity with differing flavors. So it's not "nobody needs any role in the first place" but "whatever role you're filling with either is fluff so you have to be overly compensating to even be concerned with fluff".

I'm of this opinion as well. People hark over the AoE advantage, which I'll admit is there, but honestly and truly, it's just bowing at the feet of exploitable enemy AI. AoE is definitely more efficient at taking out multiple foes, but it comes with venomizing so much else in the game. AoE controls, knockback, intangibility, sleeps, hell even single target damage itself.

At this point, I don't really care how balanced it is since if given the same or nearly he AoEs the other melees get, Stalker can outburst them all (so it's only a manner of *getting* them) but I still hope for AI and enemy types that try to counter this cheap tactic. Foes that fly, foes that kite, foes that teleport you around, foes that don't cluster, they're all situations where AoE are only a passing occurrence and *surprise surprise* make DPS less optimal over putting out high damage in fewer attacks.

And the problem with those types of add-ons to the game? Those clinging to their AoE Brutes, min/maxed DPS Scrappers and entitled Tankers will whine because they aren't the stars.

Well, someone's gotta be the background singers every now and again, you know?

Firstly, your argument fails because you're telling me to prove something I *never* stated or agreed with. Please point to where I said 'mutants should be vulnerable to magic attacks' or '[origin] should be vulnerable to [origin] type attacks'. My proposal was more like '*Rikti* should have [specified effect] vs [origin]' which isn't even close to what you're telling me to prove.

Secondly, your example is (to put it bluntly) asinine because I'm talking about effects that relate to *CITY OF HEROES* lore and you're pointing to *MARVEL* lore. Not only that but you're focusing on a specific *non related* circumstance like telekinesis and how it affects different tactics. An actual *related* example of origin's effects in the *MARVEL* lore would be the x-gene and how it can be nullified using tech or suppressed using science. In the comic and the movies, a method to depower mutants was derived by targeting what made mutants unique. If Marvel had a game and you picked the mutation origin for your powers, you'd expect these enemies exploiting those tactics to have an advantage against you but that doesn't mean every scientist or technician will be using this.

*NOW* translate that to CoX. If (just making stuff up off the top of my head to make a point) Rikti are conceptualized as hyper advanced beings with high integration of technology, then any foe coming at them with tech might feel this concept from the origin they chose.

This is also a weak strawman. The only way it would reduce customization is if you don't know how to count. Currently we have *1* choice, and that's to be separate from origin. At the very least we'll have *2* choices, what we have now and the opportunity to take origin's effects into consideration. FYI, 1 isn't bigger than 2.

Also, that specific enemies will be affected differently by different origins means you *can't* game the effect to maximize the effects in general play. Sure, you can min/max for it just like players do with IOs, Incarnate, AE farm maps and everything else of that does *something* but then those min/maxers will have to limit their own encounters to whoever they have an advantage to. IMO, that's totally fine. If I make a character able to take down spell casters because his concept is a mage-killer, why shouldn't I? But if you team, don't expect to line up those origins in a row for hyper min/max potential. Honestly, it's not even *needed* considering how easy the game is. We have players that need to handicap themselves already to get any type of challenge. This could even be an avenue for them if you consider the potential.

And what would your vampire themed character be? Is he a magic re-animated type that can cast spells and has weaknesses to the typical stuff like holy water, garlic, crucifix? Is it the mutant type that is more a viral effect that requires you to feed? Maybe you were just born a vampire and your type just happens to have a diet of blood? The purpose of the idea is, if you could make origin have some type of effect depending on what you face, then you can do *exactly the above*. Because, right now, any vampire you make is exactly the same except cosmetic (costume/power colors/origin icon). What do you do to differentiate them? Pick different powers? Slot different? Then it's not the same character and none of those ensure you capture the actual effect correctly. That is, you *CANNOT* make a classic 'weak to light/holy' vampire right now. You. Can. Not.

Strawman alert!

I'd say he needs a loincloth.

Ya, it's certainly complicated but only because origins aren't straight forward. Is it pointless? That's your opinion, really.

And you haven't made any decent point yet regarding the applicability of anything fitting any AT or any powerset.

Wolverine is no more 'vulnerable' to telekinesis than Cyclops. How is Cyclops going to blast anyone if the telekinetic simply holds his ruby sunglasses on his head?

Rikti *aren't* vulnerable to direct magic assault (at least that's isn't what I said). They would be weak to direct 'Deity' magic or 'Natural Faith'. That is, if you pray to your god(s) or channel the spirit of an immortal to throw a lightning bolt, by the logic of in-game lore, it should have a higher effect because they have nothing to protect them from the indignation of the powers from above.

But it makes sense that Rikti should be vulnerable to holds or debuffs that are magic in nature *if they hit*. They shouldn't have knowledge on hand to understand how to break a curse/hex or dispel an incantation or use the proper tongue to dismiss the effects of an empowered rune. That isn't to say any of such powers would automatically have a higher chance to connect or do more damage though.

How is Steampunk directly comparable to Rikti tech? Nemesis maybe. And Rikti should be able to defend more easily against lower forms of tech. I feel they should have an adverse effect on higher forms of tech too.

Well I'm just posting the idea and giving my interpretation of it because if I just said 'do x in this situation', you'd bring up random examples that could be dealt with. If I didn't give my 'vision' of origin in the context of the idea, the idea would have no context at all.

But it's not about me sharing your vision of origin, or everyone sharing the same vision of origin but the *devs* applying their vision for the NPCs. If the devs wanted to make Rikti highly advanced tech users that integrate other forms of tech easily, *that* is what the idea simulates.

You see, you seem to be arguing against me because you're riled up. You're defensive and discredit me just because I'm continuing to discuss rather than accept your conclusion. To me, the idea is complicated, yes, but it adds an extra layer of customization that can provide a tangible difference between one character to another and yet, I don't want the idea to be as easily abuseable or outwardly necessary as the inventions system is in today's game.

If we're targeting specific comic book examples, you're going to have to do a lot of reaching to try to topple anything.

Wolverine: Yeah, he's a mutant but he has no specific strength outside of being able to cut anything. In CoX, Wolvie is just a mutant with his origin 'turned off' since it has no significant effect on him one way or the other.

Your explanation on Cyclops and Nightcrawler has nothing to do with origin as either will still be affected by being thrown into a wall or having a car flung at them with telekinesis. You'd have to come up with some better examples than that.

Would most likely fit under 'Low Forms of Technology' as it's steampunk. Such low-tech has a particular resistance to CoT spell casting because their function is so basic, it's extraordinarily difficult to disrupt that way. However, higher forms of tech from Rikti might be able to defend against them since they can target the general mechanics.

Rikti: vulnerable to any magic-type hold/immobilize/debuff type powers (either improved duration, chance for +mag or 'critical effect') simulates lack of understanding of magic. Character +chance to hit with deity Magic or Natural faith simulates being unable to pick up such things on scanners and for ousting the god-like powers from their own dimension. Rikti low chance of -special on tech characters simulate greater understanding of individuals using high forms of technology. Rikti +special defense vs lower forms of Science and Technology. Mutants get special resistance to Rikti psionic holds to simulate Rikti being mutated humans from another world.

Crey: bypass % of resistance if you use a form of high technology or science against them. Natural and mutation powers have a lower chance to damage the armored Crey mobs due to tempered suits tuned to resist such effects through high amounts of meta research.

Circle of Thorns: Low forms of tech will resist all effects of the circle due to being highly perfected and difficult to break down. All forms of science and natural training inhibit the frequency of spells by spellcasters (such as -rech, -range, etc) as these are formulaic and don't require time to manifest. Natural faith and deity Magic have a less chance to hit.

Devouring Earth: Mutation attacks and high forms of science can inhibit the summoning of pets. Natural training and innate natural power result in a highly decreased chance of splitting defeated Crystal/Rock foes resulting in fewer 'underling' spawns.


Just to clarify, I never agreed that 'Mutant is automatically weak to Science' or what have you. I never said there'd be a 'rock paper scissors' mechanic here. Actually, I *specifically* stated that, were I to make origins matter, they'd work in the context of the lore in that, certain tactics were used in the past to defeat foes. For instance, it was 'Magic Invisibility' that allowed Alpha Team to sneak past their sensors to get to the Rikti Homeworld and destroy their portals. Technically, I should be able to make a magic stalker and never be spotted by *any* rikti, but that wouldn't mean Knives, Snipers or other foes wouldn't be able to see me. Why? Because it *makes sense* from the lore.

And that only touches on the *basics* as I think, just like was stated above, there's more than one type of 'natural' and more than one type of 'science' that would apply to different situations.

Again, if we were working under the suggestion of tech having tech-like repercussions and mutation having mutant-ish vulnerabilities, etc., then the proposal works regardless of what exceptions you can think of because it'd be working with the flow of the game lore. This would only not work if you made a suggestion that went *against* game lore. And in that instance, you can simply 'permanently disable' the feature for said character.

Meaning, if you don't want your sciency stuff doing sciency things because it's not really science, then you'd have a 1-shot chance to make a wall between your powers and origin.

Good. I always thought having a different origin should matter in those cases since your natural vampire would likely be very different from the living undead or the science created vampire. They're so different, wouldn't expect your Castlevania-esque sorcerer-type Dracula vamp having the same parasitic bio-enhanced super-soldier vampyri qualities, would you?

Heh, nice idea. I liked it even when I suggested it back in this thread and proposed a mini-version for a new phasing armor set.

Just putting the thread there so anyone can take a look back and read more posts on the subject (and maybe plug a type of phase armor type powerset for melees )

If I remember right, when claws was straight ported from Scrappers to Brutes, taking in a certain amount of fury (I think it was 65%), the set completely outstripped the Scrapper version in DPS. So to bring the two (Scrapper claws and Brute claws) closer in line like the other comparable sets, the recharge, endurance and damage were increased for some powers. Notice, higher damage on a lower mod doesn't result in as huge a leap as you'd think.

Brute Eviserate may not have a 15% crit chance, but it had -def added to it instead.

As for Dual Blades, it uses normal damage>rech>end formula for its powers (and its animations aren't inherently fast). It was easier to port because the set's secondary effect is combos while Claws' secondary was adjusted rech/end costs. One will directly screw with DPS while the other might in an indirect way.

It's probably a little of both. The devs normalized all the tier1 and 2 attacks for Blaster to more easily take advantage of Defiance's 'attack while mezzed' feature. So some sets aren't better or worse at it, all those attacks have the same general DPA, if I'm not mistaken.

Stalkers have the same defense values as Scrapper and Brute, Dominators have the same damage mods as Stalkers. You'd basically be making another Stalker but with less HP.

Honestly, if an AT is going to do the same thing as other ATs, it can at least be as good as them without needing to be worse at other things. Either that or you can just skip non-unique mock-ups and go for one that does something we can't do now.

Support? You mean manipulation? Well blaster's Manipulation sets are already an amalgamation of melee and control sets with some self buffs. Honestly, they're kindof a mess, really. It's harder to try and balance such a set with their performance varies so wildly. What I'm trying to say is, those sets aren't meant to stand up on their own. So the Manipulation/Defense set and the Manipulation/Support(buff) set wouldn't work. Either they wouldn't work, or you'd have to rework those sets for such an AT so then you might as well just call it something else (such as, what do you do with Lightning Field in Electric Manipulation when paired with Electric Armor? Or the same such with mines in Devices/Traps?).

So that narrows it down to Support/Assault, Summon/Control and Ranged/Defense.

Decent idea. Several tweeks I'd make:
-Remove Build up from their defensive support set and replace it with something more thematic. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's not defensive at all but it's in a defensive support set?
-Replace all instances of self buff powers in their assault sets with Build up. For one, some assault sets (Electric Assault) has BU which would clash with the secondary's BU if not removed. For two, stuff like Power Boost would unfairly aid defense based secondaries for this AT because Power Boost will increase +def buffs but not +res buffs. Thirdly, Power boost looses much of its luster without control effects to boost. Fourthly, this opens up the Fiery defensive support set to have Fiery Embrace (because +dmg for fire *is* defensive). And fifthly, Drain Psych would most definitely be too powerful on an AT with decent HP + armor.

I personally like this idea, mainly because I sort of *need* a Melee/Support set for a couple of characters. But it kind of doesn't 'flow' since you're forced into melee but have the least suvivability on a team. I'd probably put their HP/cap at scrapper level but switch their secondary to a combination of Buff/debuff sets with armor. Something like:

1. Personal Fire Shield
2. Blazing Aura
3. Cauterize
4. Fire Shield (buff)
5. Healing Flames
6. Personal Plasma Shield
7. Plasma Shield (buff)
8. Heat Exhaustion
9. Rise of the Phoenix

Basically a combo of Fire Armor and Thermal Radiation's powers. The pattern being this AT would be decent at buffing but would lack the 'crown jewels' of the buffing set it borrows from, the tier 9.

The wild card idea is interesting. I like it. You should probably elaborate on that some.

Like mentioned, we'd probably stick with combining IOs with ones already slotted in a power. So that'd cut down on how many combos you could get since there aren't any powers that sleep foes, make them intangible, taunt them and knock them back while they're confused.

Also, it'd limit the exploitations too. Since you can't natively slot Active defense with +def, you couldn't combine rech and def into that slot.

One UI suggestion I'd make though would be 'mini-slots'. Rather than the straight enhancement combo system we have now, where you just get a 'new' enhancement, with mini-slots, it basically just add the extra IOs you combine with the main as miniature versions around it. This would mean you're not actually creating new IOs, just sort of linking them therefore you have no new listings at all and when you respec, you can switch around which ones you're combining.

I might even suggest being able to do with with regular enhancements for more options to those that don't want to use IOs. Maybe with different stipulations/advantages.

What if you could take SO and combine it with other enhancements with the stipulation that you could only do so with enhancements below their origin status? I.e., for SOs, you can only use DOs to combo with it; for DOs you could only combo it with TOs. But in exchange, the main slot only takes a straight 50% cut not a cut dependent on how many enhancements you place under it?