Kitsune9tails
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Posts
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I think it's more that like any trope or story element; putting a woman in a refrigerator is just fine when it makes a good story better, not when it makes a bad story memorable.
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I see Emperor Cole as an guy a lot like Ozymandias in Watchmen. Kill thousands to save billions.
He wants to save his world. To him that means several things:
- Making a deal with the enemy that can destroy them (or else fall in battle, knowing they will be destroyed in his absence).
- Creating an absolute police state where even thought is censored (or else watch someone else violate said pact and doom the world)
- Covering up his deeds to the point of brainwashing and murder (or else have someone depose him, and thereby doom the world)
- Betraying his closest allies to the point of replacing them (or else have someone who doesn't know the secret accidentally break the deal and doom the world)
- Betray his deal with the Hamidon and attempt to invade an innocent world and destroy the heroes therein (or watch his own people die)
...and it is interesting to note that when granted absolute power, he built a paradise. Er, up to a point. It's kind of the 'nicer' version of Latveria.
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This is almost the exact choice Superman faced in Kingdom Come.
The difference is, Superman gambled everything on his faith in humanity, and Cole did not.
A slippery slope indeed.
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There are those who would find what Cole has accomplished, and Cole's goals respectable while others find the price so high it renders such respect impossible to grant.
Cole must be opposed, or you will lose your very identity.
Recluse by contrast conquered a country through assassination, created an organization that has snappy uniforms but is (by design) fraught with infighting, professes anarchy while ruthlessly punishing those who violate his mandates, and ultimately rules over a hellish realm of shanty houses and industrial carnage broken up by the occaisional house of decadence.
Recluse must be opposed, or you will be plunged into a slightly pre-apocalyptic urban wilderness.
It's an interesting dichotomy. -
Quote:Not that they need anything like it to make them feel more 'heroey', but I realize they would whine.Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
So what would heroes get?
So why not give them the same sort of thing?
The differences:
- Heroes would investigate chosen specific enemy groups in their level range, rather than work toward villainous goals.
- The Contacts, rather than being victims, would be written as grateful citizens inspired by the player's example and the like.
- The temp power, rather than being the goal the hero worked toward, would be a souvenir-type bit of confiscated gear.
- Success would unlock a villain-side mission to steal the confiscated gear from a 'clone' of said hero.
- The announcement would be that the hero had confiscated the target gear. -
Quote:I beleive it can be done.Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Perhaps in game terms this is a problem with the story and the path we take. We're mostly lackeys and patsies, rather than genuine game-changing villainous characters that have everyone in awe.
Sadly I have no idea how to overcome that particular hurdle.
For instance, there can be more choice and story branching written into the mission system. It can be more goal-oriented. Already, we have a path to Mayhem Missions: brokers. We can set a personal goal, robbing a bank, and get there. More things need to be set up that way.
We need to be able to go to a Scheme tab or sommat and pick a short- or long-term goal, kind of the way that you can build Incarnate abilities and progress up a tree to a particular power.
- Acheive local/regional/national political power
- Defeat (specific hero from list) once and for all
- Summon and bind powerful entity
- Build Doomsday device
... and many more.
Each of these schemes would have a story arc associated with it, culminating in a failable timed mission.
Accomplishing one of these goals results in a worldwide announcement on the zone event channel or a special channel. "Doctor Insidious has built an orbital death laser" and an associated temp power.
It also opens up a corresponding hero-side arc: "Destroy <playername>'s orbital death laser!" complete with a 'clone' of your character to beat up in the final mission, your loss of the temp power, and a proper announcement "Captain Righteous has destroyed Doctor Insidious orbital death laser!"
The key is in the writing, NOT the mechanics: the Contacts that facilitate these goals would be your victims. People you kidnap, blackmail, corrupt or threaten. In these you are not begging jobs from Arachnos, you are written as researching what shipments to rob and what plans to steal yourself (or via hirelings or whatever).
In these missions, we need to oppose and defeat good guys: honest cops, heroes, security details, soldiers, etc.
Let me emphasize: What we need is a Contact system that lets us pick a goal and work toward it by being villainous, rather than doing villainous deeds because this faction of Arachnos wants to undermine that one. -
I think we are conflating 'evil' 'villainous' and 'bad' here.
To me they are not the same thing.
Bad: You use reprehensible methods. Your goals may be good or evil, but it's not really worth it to let you pursue them. This type of character can be likeable, especially if you agree with the goals. You may even give them a hug before sending them off to the slammer. "Dirty Harry" Callahan is a Bad person, even though he is the hero (a lot of Clint Eastwood goes here). The Punisher is usually here, and Catwoman often ends up here as well, even though those two are almost polar opposites.
Evil: Your goal is sadistic (and not in the consensual whips and leather way) or nihilistic. You want most people to suffer and probably die. This type of character can be quite likeable right up until you realize you are on the list/menu. Magneto (sometimes) and Dexter go here.
Villain: You MUST BE STOPPED because either your method or goal is reprehensible. Or both are.
Unlikeable characters are a different thing entirely.
YMMV, but:
Harvey Bullock's goals and methods are not outside the norm for a cop in Gotham City, but he is slovenly, surly, and hates Batman.
Seargeant Doakes from Dexter is sneering, arrogant and vicious...and yet is a (mostly) honest cop who means well for the innocent public.
Hawkeye from the Avengers is often written as reckless, hotheaded, and resentful of authority...but since reforming from his early stint as a criminal, has remained on the straight and narrow since the 70s. -
Geena Davis as an action star? Check out Long Kiss Goodnight, where she out bad@$$es Samuel You-know-what-goes-here Jackson.
For that matter, her ex-husband Jeff Goldblum in The Fly.
...and then there's Traci Lords. -
Quote:Aw come on, nearly everybody likes Dexter Morgan, even many of his victims!Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Bad people just aren't likable
And what about the beloved Muhammed Ali, who famously said, "I'm a bad man!" -
Regardless of whether it is case of WIR or not, I personally was not satisfied with how Miss Liberty went out.
I have no problem with a hero going out while powerless after retirement per se (that's a lie, I do, but I acknowledge that it can be done well) if that is the emotional point of the story. I don't think it was handled well in this case; there was no story-based need for her to be utterly helpless. Underpowered and doomed is fine, but I would expect an ex-heroine in her fourties to at least try some kind of resourceful ploy.
But I would feel the same regardless of her sex. -
In the vastness of stories, there is room in my heart for all kinds of villains, from the kitten-eating puppy kicker to the type of guy who is truly surprised and dismayed that anyone thinks of him as a bad guy (Ever see the movie Falling Down?).
Many stories have throwaway villains, someone who is just there to provide the hero with car chases and damsels to rescue. These can still be good stories if the hero is strong enough to 'carry' them.
However, in a vacuum, I think most people are going to prefer a good Darth Vader or even Hans Gruber over 'generic crimelord #357'...both to watch and to play as.
If you are creating villains for your own stories, I find that my biggest thing is understandability, even if it doesn't carry over into the story itself. In many ways, the villain is usually the lynchpin and impetus of the story. Sarah Conner would have lived a perfectly ordinary life if the Terminator had not shown up. Therefore my villains have to have motivations and methods I can respect and understand, even many times over and above those of the protagonists (who often simply want to go back to a normal existence that did not have this evil wierdo messing with them).
In many ways, it is actually more difficult to come up with interesting and deep heroes than villains. Almost anyone can understand and beleive a character wanting to protect loved ones or even help strangers. With villains, you have to walk something of a thin line, often beginning with the musical question, "why doesn't he just shoot the hero in the head?" -
Quote:Not a link, but:Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
You wouldn't have a link to tis, would you? I'd like to read that.
Eco
Quote:A note on the new missions in Mercy Island:
Roughly half of all characters in City of Villains never make it past level 7 (and in City of Heroes, as well). Those characters having a lot of door missions takes map server time away from the rest of the game, which has impact on server efficiency and performance for everyone (including us). We believe that in the era of City of Heroes Freedom, that ratio of low-level to high-level characters will skew even further to favoring low level characters.
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By reducing the number of door missions served to low level characters, we are improving performance for everyone, but especially for the veteran players with lots of high level characters who run lots of door missions.
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We have spent many months improving the mission designers' ability to tell a dynamic story without a door between you and that story. Mission functionality has some inherent limitations for the fundamental mechanics -- defeat n and talk to x are basically what the mission system was originally written to do, everything else we do has been added over the years and presumes you have a map server to handle the additional logic. I feel that the mission designers have done a phenomenal job of leveraging this approach, finding the possibilities in the new tech, and reimagining our mission capabilities to tell some compelling stories with engaging gameplay, and the fact is that it will move you on pretty quickly to later missions once you commit to the character.
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This is part of why we added the Low Level Sewers Trial, as well, since it gives you a door as a group. (We also thought it was fun, of course.)
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To answer the most likely followup question, this is not a significant trend for the content in the game overall. We do want to leverage this new storytelling approach throughout the game, but we do not have explicit instructions for mission designers to avoid door missions beyond the first few levels. Phasing in the overworld is a fun way to show you the effects of your actions, and I am sure we will use it by choice from time to time. -
- Were you given any instructions/mandates other than "make cool stuff we haven't seen before" for creating the pieces?
- Was there a story (the official one or a personally-created one) that you followed to make the designs? Like a timeline for which tech led to which and why it looks different (and so cool), or was it matching everything to an initial piece created from Rule of Cool?
- What music inspired you during Going Rogue, or do you get your inspiration elsewhere? -
Any chance for more full comics, even if they are electronic only? I'd love to see you and Hickman collaborating on some behind-the-scenes stuff that is both ingame and here on the forums.
And Samuraiko can do the trailers for you!
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He was actually scary in Sin City, and all the more so because he was Elijah Wood.
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Christina Ricci in most of her roles after being typecast as 'girl involved with the supernatural' in Casper and Addams Family, but especially in Monster and Black Snake Moan.
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Wasn't Miss Liberty Stephan Richter's niece?
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Quote:I don't feel that her actions were unrealistic, just uninvolving. When Wash gets killed in Serenity, it is sudden but you can care because you have had a chance to see why his loss is a loss. You just lost the ace pilot, the amazon's dear husband, the gentle joker. With Miss Liberty, the only thing you know about her is that she is vaguely ...imperious, or something.Originally Posted by Issen
I actually disagree with these points specifically. She WAS once a heroine. Not anymore. We don't have any idea how long she's been out of the hero-ing business, but long enough that she's gone back to being an otherwise ordinary civilian. There's reason enough there for her to be nervous in these situations.
As for her just getting shot and killed...well, I suppose this reflects the seriousness of this arc. This isn't a comic book arc where people will make these last words or the villains will even entertain them. In fact, if you want to think about it, this drives home the fact that someone is going to die.
I haven't gotten a shot at playing it blueside yet; we'll see how that changes my perspective. But my instinct is that it is better to have no chance of saving her, than a 'fake chance' ...but then that was the whole point of Malaise's ruse. -
Quote:I disagree. In this instance, I'm filing it under 'clever use of the medium'.Originally Posted by Venture
The point is that the trick only works because of the medium, which makes it cheap.
If I was reading a novel, I would not call foul on being surprised by a reveal because it's a literary medium that took advantage of the fact that for instance I could not actually hear a scene. When Lovecraft falls back on saying something is indescribable or whatever, I roll with it.
Same kinda deal. -
As to whether this is a case of Women In Refrigerators, the answer is unequivocally "Technically, Yes" because the definition is so broad.
That's unimportant.
Tropes are not bad, and like most tropes, WIR can be used effectively to make a good story.
What is important is that it was not so used in this case, based on my playthrough of, and emotional reaction to, the villain half.
I am not saying the writing was bad overall. I liked the overall pacing, the reveal of who '???' was, the delivery of the dialogue and many other things.
That said:
- The villain-side story did not adequately establish that Miss Liberty is Statesman's daughter and Ms. Liberty's mother. Even I was momentarily confused. A scene between the two of them, with Miss Liberty admonishing her to be careful or the like would have added to the story emotionally and informationally.
- The villain-side story did not give us a cut scene or other adequate setup as to why she was sent to perform the negotiations (other than that she was the target). She almost could have been ye genericke ambassador. She really needed a scene establishing her credentials with insightful dialogue, something to establist that she was competent, noble, and important in her own right.
- She spent the whole time being kidnapped and cowering. As she was a former superheroine in her own right, I would have expected to fight her (even if she were horribly underleveled to reflect her loss of the Liberty Belt) and defeat her to deliver her to Malaise and Wade. As an alternative, a scripted event where she escapes by some clever ruse and I have to chase her down would have been nice.
- She just gets shot and dies. No defiant last quip. No empty threat about angering Statesman, or hollow expression of faith that he would save her at the last minute. No special sad music. This is not how a former hero should go out. Not even in a villain-centric story.
I think the above objections are more important than the fact that a female character dying in a comic-book-like setting will unavoidably be an example of Women In Refrigerators: I want to care more about Who Dies.
To the writers of Who Will Die:
In the next four months, we have Statesman, Manticore, Citadel and Sister Psyche to cast the spotlight on.
Please take the time to make us care about these characters as more than pictures on the loading screens, TF givers, opponents, and pets.
As a story-oriented player, I want stuff. Story stuff. Emotional stuff. Relationship stuff. Humanizing stuff. I want to feel why these guys are the premier heroes of the world, what they inspire, how they make it day to day.
The neat new enemies and mechanics are nice, and I like them. Please also include things like:
Statesman: Where does our Marcus Cole live/eat/shop? Is he anachronistic and preferring a 'simpler age', or is he thoroughly modernized, with a Twitter account and blog? Does he show any signs of Emperor Cole's power lust, or is he baffled as to the evils of his alternate selves? What about his old con-man/heist-meister days...does he have nostalgia or is he ashamed of them? What does the word "Statesman" mean to him; does he feel he represents the USA these days, the hero community, or something else? As the premier hero of the world, does he have disdain for unproven young heroes, or a distant but fatherly regard for them? If he dies, what will we lose?
Sister Psyche: How crazy is she; does she isolate herself to escape the voices in her head, meditate/medicate, or just endure? Why "Sister" Psyche; is she Catholic? (Yes, go there) How is she adapting to married life; is she a domestic type or does she have some kind of hobbies or career outside of herodom? How does she feel about Aurora Borealis and Calvin Scott, particularly in the current circumstance with Praetoria? Is she a feminist? Why does she use her powers for heroic ends, especially contrasted with her Praetorian counterpart? If she dies, what will we lose?
Manticore: Manticore we know some things about, like his lifestyle, his contentious relationship with Statesman, his marriage, his public identity, and his underhanded dealings with the government. He is clearly both the shadiest and most proactive Phalanxer; possibly a Vigilante. However, here is an opportunity to explore his Heroic side, or to explore the fact that he is a pure Vigilante only a final Tip away from Villainhood.
Citadel: The least known Phalanxer. There is tons to reveal here, from the extent of his programming and the nature of his sentience, to his relationship with other digital intelligences. How does he feel about the Internet? What does he beleive about the nature of the soul? How does he feel about media portrayals of beings like himself? Does he dream of electric sheep? How was he accepted as a Phalanxer? Does he have hobbies, preferences, aspirations? If he dies, what do we lose?
Much of the above info may be on the forum somewhere or in a novel somewhere: this is an opportunity to get it into the game.
After all, this is our last chance to interact (outside of Ouroboros) with one of these people.
...and don't feel shy about going back to fill in the blanks with Synapse and Numina as well. I'd love to get Numina's perspective of death and the afterlife, as well as Synapse's take on why Neuron is a genius and he ...isn't. -
Quote:Which was the point; Shalice recognized him instantly. But I like the fact that someone many of us have seen, fought and teamed with was the 'mystery man'.Originally Posted by Agent White
I dunno, it's clever and it isn't. It was only an unknown to *us* because we've never seen him out of his costume.
I now will forever think of Malaise as a person who has a life and does things like go buy jewelry or hang out in the back room of a bar in the Rogue Islands. Previously, he was 'that guy in the awful costume whose deal was that he could share his crazy'. Sadly, it humanizes him more than most of the Phalanx.
THAT is a rant for another thread, but only after I go through WWD3 on hero side. -
I must commend the Devs on the reveal, however. Hidden in plain sight all along.
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Some DfBers are here just to hit max level at max speed.
But there are also those that NEED to be converted for their own good and the good of the game:
- those that will enjoy the story and lore of the game, and their own personal journey.
- those that will convert to VIP and support the game once they realize that it amounts to more than one raid.
- those that came here from other games to get away from raiding.
- those that came here from other games to enjoy 7 years worth of content.
...and many more.
Find them, and love them (in a T-rated way). -
Ms. Liberty may be a loose cannon, but at least she hasn't conquered any alternate dimensions we know of.
Statesman is every bit as likely to go off; he lost a daughter. I think that is right up there on the list of Adult Fears.
He may not have his own private army, but it's not like he needs one.
Of course, this all happened on Manticores' watch. And while Ms. Liberty has her own army of soldiers, Manticore has his own army of assassins. -
Quote:Next you'll be saying Cloud could have used Phoenix Down on Aerith.Originally Posted by Neuronia
Except that there are millions upon millions of these inspirations *** Kora Fruit kicking around, for 50 influence (or is it 150) that will bring anyone back from the dead err defeat. There just isn't an excuse for ANYONE to die in this game.
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So Penn Jillette is an illusionist?
Who knew? -
I think before numbers can really enter the picture, we really need to define intent.
Currently, Katana pulls ahead of BS after two attacks in terms of damage.
So, how many attacks should it take for Katana to pull ahead of BS after we buff BS' burst? Three? Five?