Juggertha
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Posts
2390 -
Joined
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'Grats on the 3rd place though!
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Quote:Sorry FD, but it's not that easy.Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Juggy--
You don't want to address the specific values I've listed because they're mine. Incorrect. They are widely held by artist's and educators. Those values are the core of my argument. Since you won't address them, you aren't making any substantive response to my post.
As stated before, if you post a set of values, and expect everyone to share them, there's going to be a problem. You posted the (not so great) example of murder, and we all know that there are many different values people hold on the subject.
It's easy to say 'hey,none of us agree with stealing, right?', and most would probably agree with that statement - but on closer examination and questioning, you'd most likely find that there's a wide variation of belief within that simple statement. Do we all view stealing the same? Chances are, we have varying definitions of the word.
And that's why I don't have to agree to your set of values to make a comment on this topic - the topic (using references) does not need to be bound by YOUR values - but is rather an issue for all to deal with and discuss. -
Quote:Push, push, push.Originally Posted by Caemgen
Stop inserting calm, reasonable discussion in this thread! It's ruining my enjoyment of viewing the two immovable objects pushing at each other!!
Bah!
Juggertha cannot move it.
Fair enough. I always consider myself a student... and sometimes a very poor one at that.Quote:Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
@BW:
Of course if you only "copied" (as BW defines it) during a "for fun" contest and not on anything you make money from then it's a somewhat moot point and all of it really depends on how people define copying/stealing vs. using reference.
But absolutely, if I am making money at something, then my clients have every right to discuss the product with me. And if any previous client have issue, they are welcome to contact me (you'll note that my commissions have been closed for months now, though).
Sure thing, I've actually posted up my process on that previous thread and many others. You can see in some of my tutorials how I often use reference - http://juggertha.deviantart.com/gallery/#TutorialsQuote:Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
Do you have any actual examples (this is what I call using refs the right way and this over here is copying) Juggertha or BW (you did say you would post all your refs for the skating piece when you got back) or anyone else? I think if we could see actually what people are talking about rather than hearing it described to us we could come to some kind of agreed upon definition and this thread would progress further... well either that or the forums would implode.
But I must say, it varies per piece. My recent Blob piece used next to no references - I was perversely inspired. lol
But it's more than obvious that I used a video pause to make that Disney rabbit previously mentioned - and people will note that I even showed the process in it. I wasn't trying to dupe anyone, and made clear that any other participant would be welcome to PM me regarding it.
Edit: Sorry CR, I tried to keep your color scheme, but I mesed it up. Forgive me. -
Thanks for mentioning those sites, LD. I had visited before, but might have to swing by and give them another go.
One site that I really like for constructive comments on comic (style) art is PencilJack - http://www.penciljack.com/forum/forum.php
There's been a number of industry people there that are helpful and encouraging. -
Quote:I believe I've been pretty clear in my posts thus far - I take issue with the ambiguity of your judgement in regards to this issue. I see shades of gray, you see black and white.Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
You haven't diverged in opinion. Essentially, what you're saying is that points are not absolute, which I stated myself at the outset. Those numbered points--if you diverge, what don't you agree with? The only thing I'm trying to pigeonhole you into is clarity.
And as to addressing your specific values - I'm not really all that interested. Those are YOUR values, and as you've said, you gained them over a lifetime. I'm really not keen on delving into them - they are yours, and I respect that. What I can question is the application of those guidelines and how that may apply to others.
your values are your own, but as soon as you seek to spread them, don't be surprised if people question that a bit.
So, it's not ok for me to read into your posts and tone, yet only you did the same to me ("it reads as...").Quote:My thread would be better off without the personality assessments you bring into it. I have no incentive to worry about my tone with you, since you've stated time and time again that you don't care about my opinion anyway. You've stated many times that you don't feel this kind of discussion belongs in this forum. You are very demanding that the proceedings have the proper degree of civility that you feel your entitled to.
I believe that this is a valid discussion, and as long as it stays civil, a good one. I'm not sure that it belongs on this forum though, and I've stated my reasons why.
So, it's ok for you to express some ideas about referencing, but it's not ok for me to express my thoughts on it?Quote:Lol you're lost. You're barking up the wrong tree. You wandered into the wrong side of town. I'm trying to express some ideas here. I feel it's important to understand what reference is and how to use it. I've been influenced by a lot of really talented and influential people. Some of this is echoing stuff I've read from people like Brom and the guys at concept art. You don't agree with me? Fine. Want to use cultural relativism as a pretext for dismissing it. Great! Whatever makes you happy. But I can't pamper you. Sorry.
That seems a bit off, no?
Oh, and put snide little words like 'pampering' in there if you like, but it really does nothing for your point. I haven't asked to be pampered, I've simply asked about the holes in your position.
Again though, I want to say that in many ways I agree with many of your stances - but your unwillingness to accept that there may be valid alternatives scares me.
And then we have Suichiro, who comes in for the swipe, without actually addressing the matter at hand.Quote:Originally Posted by Suichiro
TL;DR
Juggy agrees with LD, except when it suits him. In which case, he agrees with him more, but only in a belligerent way.
Suichiro, I actually enjoyed your first post on this thread, and especially the example you gave. Please, if you can, no need to come after me, but instead, why not address some of the issues being discussed (and in that, I suppose you can take some shots at me)?
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Quote:I've discussed the issue at hand - just because I don't want to be pigeon holed into your exact way of viewing the subject, does not mean that my points are any less relevant.Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
You haven't made any qualitative assessment. You're doing you damndest to address everything but the points I've made. Go back to the numbered points I've listed. Are they good or bad? Should artists hold to them or not?
The issue at hand is using references - is it not? You put forth your values on it, and then proceeded to elaborate.
I've put out my views on it (see my first reply), and have since questioned some other views/judgements being made - especially those in the OP.
If you think that my points have no merit, so be it. But I think that that is exactly where you are falling short - that you don't allow for divergence of opinion.
I put that there to put perspective on the issue - and once again you try to pigeon hole me into a certain opinion. Is it a big deal? Perhaps, but compared to what? Murder? You've already brought that up in your examples. Is copyright infringement a big deal compared to murder? Nope, not in my books. So yeah, in that sense, it's no big deal.Quote:"The practice of theft/copying/swiping is widespread in art."
So is the fallout from such theft. Legally or otherwise. Should it be widespread? If you don't condone it, why would you state this? It reads as "this is no big deal."
Once again though I ask you to please look at your opinion and consider addressing some of the flaws I've noted. I really do think that we agree far more than you'd expect, but that your posts have smacked of the tone - "I am the teacher, and this is how it is." It's been noted before, and you may want to consider easing up on it - your position would be the better for it. -
Quote:I've pointed out the followingOriginally Posted by FrozenDeath
Beyond that, you haven't made any qualitative assessment of what I've written. Yes?
-That this forum, by its nature, is not an academic art forum.
-That your opinion is only that - your opinion. And while you are welcome to voice it so long as it falls within the TOS, I am also welcome to voice mine - even if it runs counter to yours.
-That the accusations of theft are from your perspective. If you believe that someone has stolen something, by all means, report it to the authorities.
-That accusations can be harmful - even if not true.
-That your values are your own and are not universal.
-That the practice of theft/swiping/copying is widespread in art.
-That the condemnation of the above has not been rampant throughout human development, but rather is a new phenomenon.
-That your own OP has glaring holes in it regarding 'exceptions', and that by the nature of those exceptions, your values/rules cannot be used as a guideline.
-That you calling out one person (or certain people), but not others shows an emotional bias.
-That there are numerous creative goods in our lives, and that if we reference any of them, we run the risk of offending someone.
-That the vast majority of people on this forum are not art professionals, and as such, are simply here exploring hobbies and interests.
Shall I go on with my qualitative assessment?
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This, and everything else you wrote, had me rolling in my chair. lolQuote:Originally Posted by Johnnykat
First off. I am inebriated - I am pretty sure that is not against the EULA. -
Everything about that piece rocks. Very high quality work.
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Quote:Yet you are using the term 'stealing' - that implies theft. Theft is a codified legal term that varies form one country to another. Do you 'steal' an image if you copy/paste it off of google? Are you 'stealing' from record companies if you record a tape off of the radio? Are you stealing my wife's virtue by staring at her?Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Well there's also the case to be made for benefit. If you don't rely on copying others to produce your own work, you'll improve and develop your own voice. If there's a shared community value that stealing is bad, then everyone involved has some protection and benefit.
If stealing is seen as permissible, then one artist can directly benefit from the work of another. I need to do a Feral Kat commission? No problem, I grab one of Adam Hughes Catwoman pictures and do a paintover. With my level of ability at Photoshop, I could probably even do it in a way that concealed the rip-off of the original.
It's not always so black and white.
I've already stated my personal views on this topic in my first reply - but I'm wise enough to know that they are just that - my personal views. I'm no where saying that my way is the absolute RIGHT way.Quote:You say that the flaw in this discussion is that it presents only one right way. What other way are you advocating?
Poor example, and you know it. There can be various reasons/circumstances for shooting someone, and various countries have different laws on it (heck, if I'm not mistaken, even within the US it varies). It's never as cut and dry as you are proclaiming it to be.Quote:Here's a grey area:
I shoot somebody in my country in cold blood. I go to jail.
I shoot somebody in Japan in cold blood. I go to jail.
I shoot somebody in Germany in cold blood. I go to jail.
I shoot somebody in Brazil in cold blood. I tell the police that the guy offended me. I slip them some cash. I walk away.
Would it bother you if I argued that that last case wasn't really all that good, despite people having different values? Should the Brazil example be used to characterize the situation as a whole?
If you want to follow the laws and norms in your country... that sounds like a good idea. But for you to say that every other country should do the same, and then imply that they are lesser for being different, seems a bit off, no?
Copyright law is not universal, and if truth be told, it is somewhat new. The concept of being able to sue someone for taking your intellectual property has not been around for all that long - and many nations don't recognize it. Heck, one could argue that most civilizations were built on it.
But again, I want to state that I'm not here advocating for any type of theft - but I'm simply saying that your values may or may not be shared by everyone, and that there's lot's of room for interpretation within. -
Quote:But isn't that subjective as well? What is right to you, may not be right to another.Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
There is such a thing as grey area. My advice for artists is not to hang around there. Do the right thing for yourself and other creative types.
That's the whole flaw in this. What makes you think that your way is the only 'right' way? -
Just for fun, I thought some people might enjoy these links...
Swipe of the week
http://blog.adlo.es/swipe_of_the_week/2007/08/
Disney swipes itself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh84g8rC2oA -
Quote:This whole post came from a discussion on another thread... and even in your OP, you mention seeing people doing 'it'.Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Looks like now's a good time to remind you that you injected the whole "calling people out" aspect of this discussion. I made no reference to it in my opening post. And true to form, you're making it a big part of the exchange. To answer you, we are required to follow the dictates of the EULA. Beyond that, if I've seen that somebody ripped off another artist I see nothing about the nature of this forum that says one shouldn't comment on that fact. It's simple to compare two images. It's simple to respond if you feel like somebody is wrongly characterizing what you did. And then people reading it can make up their own minds. There's no need for enforcement or rules are any more levels of mediation--its a straightforward exchange.
But yes, I agree with you for the most part, but beg to question - do you do this with everyone? Do you 'exchange' with everyone that you feel might be breaking your values? If not, what makes you 'call out' one poster, but not another?
So, the only people that would have anything to fear from accusations are those that are guilty? Is that honestly the line that you want to take? You seriously don't see anything wrong with that string of logic?Quote:I wrote my post to talk about reference. You seem hung up on the calling out thing. Let me say this--the only people that would have anything to fear would be people who were actually stealing. And the backlash would be other people's opinions, nothing more. And you've stated repeatedly that you don't care about other people's opinions of your work--it's not going to end your world. Lol so what's the big deal?
This discussion is about using other people's property, is it not? I mean, isn't that what it's all about?Quote:You keep mentioning screenshots. This is the company's forums and they've set up this space for people to post screenshots. They've given permission. What does that have to do with this discussion?Obviously if I gave you a picture of mine and said "use it any way you like" there wouldn't be an issue with stealing.
So, only kids can copy? What about an adult starting off? What about art students? What about the self-taught? What exactly is 'further'? I mean, I'm no pro, far from it - I still consider myself learning - does that now exempt me from your judgment?Quote:And no, I wouldn't call out a kid for copying Jim Lee. My kids copy stuff all the time because that's what children do. If that kid went further in art, I'd expect that people would start teaching the importance of creativity and originality.
Again, I'll ask - is it possible that some people agree with you, some don't, some have the same values, some have different - but in many ways we can all be 'right'?
I think that's the biggest problem i have with how these types of things have been laid out - that there is ONE WAY and ONLY one way - and I don't believe that to be the case. -
OP, I really dislike this looking like a tit-for-tat response, but with this being a forum arrangement, it's hard to reply without it being structured as such. So, keep that in mind that if this were a face to face conversation, it'd be a lot more fluid.
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In regards to us having similar values, I'd disagree with you. Sure, if you say "the majority of the posters on this board don't like to steal or be stolen from." you'd probably get a majority agreeing with you. But what if we defined stealing? What if we asked about people's variations within that value? Is it ok to 'steal' an idea? A color scheme? a pose? And beyond art, there are a lot of gray lines. How many here have copied/pasted an image from the internet without paying?
The truth is, it's easy to come out and say 'we all have this value', but the truth is, we have different interpretations on what constitutes the details of that value.
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I'm not sure why you'd say that this thread 'isn't fun for me' - I've stated that this is a valuable discussion. But I've also said that this is a discussion that could perhaps be better served in a different setting.
Take a look up - do you see the 'screenshot' title to this forum? By nature, this forum goes against some of your stated values. People are encouraged to use other artists' work (ie. screenshots). So perhaps it'd be best to 'judge' (or as you say, 'call people out') according to the nature of the setting. If someone is submitting an academic work, and they've plagiarized 80% of it, I'd expect you to step up. But if some kid does a chalk drawing of Jim Lee's Wolverine on his sidewalk, perhaps you might reconsider 'calling him out'?
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Again, I'd state that there are a lot of gray areas in this discussion, and because of that, no one can assume the mantle of authority. If anyone is going to do so by 'calling people out', then it must be fair - there must be rules clearly stated in the forum, and the enforcement must be equal. OP, as you and I both know, many art forums do exactly that - but this one does not.
So, if anyone is going to be 'calling people out' - perhaps they should consider the context of this board, and reserve judgement for more suitable situations.
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Edit: The funny thing about this is that for the most part, I agree with a lot fo what you are saying. I just don't agree with all of it (or how you sometimes present it).
So, is it possible that people can have varying opinions and values and still be 'right'? -
^^ hahahha
I've now got 2 lawsuits in my in-box. People claiming I've burned out their cornea. -
Quote:Very interesting question - I view my DA gallery entirely as a learning portfolio. I don't think that I'd ever send it to a publisher as is, and it serves the purpose for me of reminding me about different things I've learned (and sometimes forgotten) along the way.Originally Posted by Lousy_Day
How do you feel about people posting personal studies and experiments (master copies, photo studies, scenes from movies, etc) on DA? People seem to use DA very differently, from those who use it like a portfolio to only showcase the best of their works, to those who post every little sketch they do. I guess I've been using it not much differently than sketchbook threads on art forums, where I wouldn't post total crap but still show things that are not polished or studies that I wouldn't consider my own work.
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Quote:I think you are right - this is the main difference as to how we view this issue.Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Here is a fundamental difference between our positions. You are looking for the rules. "What is the rule that says what I am doing is right or wrong?" Well, there's copyright....but you've indicated that in other parts of the world, different cultures may not have the same view of copyright. So there's no coherent, overarching ruleset to govern how people use source material. I guess I will just figure out what works for me.
I believe the situation doesn't hinge on rules. It hinges on values. For, example the values that I listed in my starting post. The basic question is whether or not you subscribe to that set of values. Those are not just my personal feelings on the issue--those are values that have been handed to me by other artists and educators over the course of my life. If you do hold those values to be good--then you act accordingly with regard to using other people's work. It's not difficult to know right from wrong at that point.
Your values are not mine. Just like so-and-so's values are not the same as the next person. We may have similar values, but I'm guessing very few on this board have the exact same values as one another.
You've learned your values over the course of your life. People that have come and gone through your life have had an impact on it. But it's more than obvious to all that the next person is going to have different values because of different experiences. PLUS, throw into the mix that this is an international board, and you're going to get a host of differences.
So you don't call people out for doing "these actions" but you call people out for "offering arguments/justification to the effect that there's nothing wrong with it"? So, as long as someone does it and says nothing, that's ok. But as soon as they say something that conflicts with your values, THEN you're going to call them out on it?Quote:First off, again--what rules? Nobody has any authority to issue rules on this other than NCSoft because it's their boards. I can tell people they're violating copyright. Beyond that I can argue right or wrong in terms of values, which is how I'm framing this discussion. If they don't respect those values, nothing I say is going to matter. But at least it might serve as a good example for other people reading the thread.
And to be clear: I don't call people out for copying. I don't even call people out for a pattern of copying that can be demonstrated over time. I call people out for these things and offering arguments/justification to the effect that there's nothing wrong with following that kind of pattern. Again, beyond copyright I can't show you a rule that says following such a pattern is wrong. But I do think its clear that the person doing so doesn't subscribe to the values I've laid out.
It begs to be asked then; what makes your set of values the one to be used? Is there not room for various sets of values?
Also, a lot of your point hinges on certain things being ok for... study (for example). I think that most of us on this board would fall into that category. As far as i know, there are no major published artists here, and me personally, well, I'm just practicing.
So, if it's ok as a learning tool, then why even bring it up on these boards? Why 'call someone out' at all?
I know this is said in the 'generic you' sense, but it's easy enough to answer personally. Sure, I want people to respect my work... but if they don't, it's not going to end my world. If anonymous poster B says that they don't like/don't respect me, so be it. There are always going to be people out there that don't hold the same values/tastes - and there's little I can do about it.Quote:It's simple. Do you want people to respect your work? Do you (generic you) want to be creative and grow as an artist? How are you going to proceed? What are the things you should value? If you value those things, you'll know how to act.
Again though, and this point is very important to me - this is a screenshot and fanart forum. By it's very stated nature, people are encouraged to share all types of works - including those done by other artists (ie. screenshots). And while I think this is a valuable discussion, it'd be better served on an art forum. The people that come here come to enjoy the aforementioned topics and have every right to do so without being subjectd to someone's standard of values.
You (the hypothetical you) may not appreciate screenshot manipulation as art, and on most art forums you may be right, but here, it's encouraged. This is not an academic arts forum, it's a game forum that is FOR FUN - and I think that needs to be made clear. -
Doh! I just did gluttony.
http://juggertha.deviantart.com/art/...each-161771830 -
very cool, man. I always dig those on-the-fridge-family-portaits.
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My votes:
1st - JohhnyKat. Hate to vote for someone who has immunity, but that piece rocks!
2nd - U-Naught. It's what a full effort crayon piece shuld look like.
3rd - ScooterTwo. I just love playng with my daugher's playdough.
Good luck to all, and cudos for all that came out for this (slightly odd) challenge. -
Quote:Most likely lazy.Originally Posted by Bayani
As McKinney said after he finished mine and Planet Girl's a few years ago... "If the artist still get the details wrong with the model sheets as references they're either lazy or dumb."
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For me, I look for consistency in guidelines. FD's OP was well thought out, and I know he took careful consideration to include many points, but I still have to wonder: are there inconsistencies?
Ok, copying someone's creative works directly is wrong... unless it's for an art assignment, or unless you are copying a 'master', or unless you have permission, or unless it's a photo (where it may or may not be ok), or as long as you use two or more references.
At some point you just have to say 'hold on, something seems off here'.
I've heard some people say that ANY referencing is wrong, and I've heard others that say that referencing is a valuable tool for all levels. For me, I suppose I waver somewhere in between.
Let's look at the statue, David. I didn't create it - it was another person's work of art. But, if I was to see it in real life, I'd feel very comfortable using it as a reference for a sketch/piece. Is that stealing? Perhaps. I am using another person's piece of art as a reference.
What about if I need to draw a car - a specific car - a Porsche! Now, I don't own one right now , so I'd have to go find one. But, if I used it as a reference, would I also have to ask permission from the designers? I mean, didn't a whole lot of people put a whole lot of effort into designing the appearance of that thing?
And what if there are no Porsche near me? I can always turn to Google and search out some pics - but as mentioned in the OP, I am now (once again?) using someone else's creative works.
But what if I use two (or more) references? Does that now allow me to skirt the issue, or does it simply mean that I am now offending even more creators?
What if I use a screenshot, that was once copied from a photo? Does it free me from responsibility, or am I now offending the tech designer AND the photographer AND the architech AND the original builder? Heck, I may even be offending NVidia. lol
What if I change some things? The color? The shape? The expression? How much of it must be changed before it no longer qualifies as a 'copy'? 10%? 40%? 80%?
Having lived overseas for nearly a decade, I've come to realize that different countries (and people I suppose) view copyright infringement very differently. No, I'm not talking about widespread bootlegging of DVDs in SE Asia, but serious legal matters. I've seen cases of big name companies suing local ones for Copyright infringement, in what appeared to be a pretty obvious case, and losing.
When I asked local lawyers about it, I was shocked to hear how different their thinking was from mine - certain shapes/patterns/whatever cannot be copyrighted, and even if said image came close to being a copy, then you still have to prove damages.
And that was with countries that had codified structures regarding this sort of thing, on the 'net, and between people around the world, the lines become even less clear.
For me, this is how I see it:
Other people's art-
-If you reference, I believe you should cite it. If you don't, you'd better as soon as called on it.
-If you are selling something for profit, or printing on a large scale, you should seek permission for referencing before you use it.
Photos-
-If I know the source, I'll source it - especially if it's Stock somewhere.
-I'll try to diverge from the original enough so that it would be recognizable, yet not exact (unless, of course, I'm trying to be exact. lol).
The next issue is, and it's one that we went over before - calling people out on copy/using references. Now, in no way am I interested in rehashing previous arguments - I'd much rather keep this a 'general' discussion, instead of a personal one - but I must say, if you're going to call people out on something, APPLY IT TO EVERYONE. No need to single one person out, no need to attack/demonize one person - but instead, have the rules apply to everyone equally.
If there's a guideline that no references are to be used - apply it to all.
If there's a guideline that no art references are to be used - apply it to all.
But therein lies the problem - what rules do we follow? Do we follow the rules of the (well intentioned) OP? what made that the definitive rule set? Do we follow something else? If so, how do we all agree on it? If this is the Fan Art and Screen Shot forum, how can it make everyone complay with one set of rules?
As you can see, the lines aren't always as black and white as they appear. Sometimes yes, but sometimes not as much. To me though, what's important is civil dialogue and discussion. As soon as things get emotional/personal, this type of topic leads nowhere.
((well, that was longer than I had intended. I hope that my post gave some people food for thought. In no way am I trying to say that one side is right or not, but I wanted to give my 2cents here - all the while hoping that this won't fall back into that old familiar pattern)) -
Those are pretty well proportioned.
Nice job. -
I'm glad that ya chose red paper for that.
Mind me asking the paper size? -
Yeah, I'm hoping that people just put something o paper (or sidewalk) for this one.
I wasn't really feeling the vibe this month, but I'm glad I put something in - it leaves me with the option of next month. -
Quote:Wow, this is professional looking stuff. Great piece.Originally Posted by Bindweed
Many thanks, Caem!
Thanks to Caemgen, I can now do this!
Here are the pencil and the inked versions of VexXxa, side by side, each pic is a link to the larger version on my DA page!:
Hoorah! Now I feel less like a technological troglodyte, and will celebrate by drinking enough beer to eradicate the brain cells where I stored this newfound knowledge!